Hideaki Anno x Kazuo Koike (October 22 2013)

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On October 22 an event was held at Osaka University of Arts featuring a conversation between Anno and Kazuo Koike followed by questions from the audience. Twitter user banira1ce took notes on the event, and posted some of the questions and answers to twitter, which are archived here. I have done a quick translation of a few of her twitter posts, because some of the answers Anno gave are quite interesting. I am a bit pressed for time at the moment, so forgive any mistakes I may have made, and as always suggestions or corrections are highly appreciated! And thank you very much to banira1ce m(_ _)m

https://twitter.com/koikekazuo/status/392640680662544384/photo/1

今日、大阪芸術大学で、庵野秀明氏と対談した。生徒たちは三百人ぐらいが聴講していた。一時間ぐらい対談してあとは生徒たちとの質問のやりとりになったが、とっても良かったよ。

Kazuo Koike: Today, Mr. Hideaki Anno and I held a discussion at the Osaka University of Arts. About three hundred students attended. We talked together for about an hour and then took questions from the students. It was very good.

http://togetter.com/li/580471

庵野さん「オタクという言葉が生まれたのは僕の活動中でして、その当時は差別用語でした」

Anno: The word "otaku" was born after I started working. At that time it was a term of discrimination.

小池さん「ナディアは子どもに死を教えましたよね」
庵野さん「最初NHKプロデューサーからもらった企画書は、どう見てもラピュタでした。宮さん（宮崎駿）が手を入れてるのだから仕方ないです。僕が監督するにあたって、子供向けだからこそちゃんとしたものを作りたいと。死はそれまで隠蔽されてた
庵野さん「死は僕が子供の時はそこらに転がってましたからね。アニメの中でもそれを表したいと思って、NHKに対して強行しました」

Koike: Nadia taught children about death.

Anno: The proposal I first recieved from the producers at NHK was basically a version of Laputa. Miya-san had worked on it, so that was inevitable. When I was directing it, I took it seriously precisely becaue it was directed towards children. Death had been hidden [from those children] up until then. Death was all around me when I was a child. I wanted to show that in anime, so I forced it on NHK.

小池さん「エヴァがこれだけ大ヒットして、その一番の要因は何だと思いますか？」
庵野さん「わかんないですねぇ……」
小池さん「エヴァはロボットアニメとは言えないと思うんですよ。ロボットはガンダムで終わりましたね」
庵野さん「エヴァは人造人間にこだわりましたからね」

Koike: What do you think is the main reason that Evangelion has become as big as it has?

Anno: I have no idea...

Koike: I don't think you can call Eva robot anime. Robot anime ended with Gundam.

Anno: Eva focused on "man-made human beings."

庵野さん「エヴァは当初から制御の効かないロボットでした。コントロールの効かないものを、子供が乗るとおもしろいかなぁと」

Anno: From the beginning, Eva was a robot that couldn't be controlled. I thought it would be interesting to have children pilot an uncontrollable robot.

学生からの質問「エヴァについて。あれは考えさせるシーンばかりでしたが、意図的なのですか？ 」
庵野さん「ケースバイケース。雰囲気だけのところもあります。趣味で遊びのところもあるし、でも、心理学についてはかなり勉強しました。考えられてるんじゃないかって思ってもらった方が効率いい」

Student Questioner: Eva was filled with thought-provoking scenes, but was there an intention behind them?

Anno: [They were made] on a case-by-base basis. Sometimes it's just a matter of atmosphere. Sometimes it's playing around for fun. But I studied a fair bit concerning psychology. It's more effective if the audience finds what you're doing to be conceivable.

質問「嫌いなアニメのジャンルは？」
庵野さん「萌え系に特化したものです。ホラーも嫌ですね。ホラーはダメです。お化け屋敷もダメです」

Student Questioner: What genres of anime do you dislike?

Anno: Works that are specifically moe, and horror. I am no good with horror, or with haunted houses.

質問「エヴァの次回作について何か構想はありますか？」
司会者「あ、現在制作中のものに関してはNGです」
庵野さん「もう一応出来てはいるんだけどね、何度も書き換えながら、作り直ししてます」

Student Questioner: Have you thought of the plot for the next Eva film?

Moderator: Ah, no questions concerning works currently in production.

Anno: [The script?] is already finished provisionally, but I am reworking it, rewriting over and over again.

質問「エヴァはオタク批判だという意見がありますが」
庵野さん「批判はしてない。想ってます。それが余計なお世話になる人もいるでしょう」

Student Questioner: There's a viewpoint which holds Eva to be a criticism of otaku.

Anno: I'm not criticizing. I'm considering. That might be putting my nose where it doesn't belong for some people.

質問「TVのエヴァの最終回については？萌えが嫌いということですがアスカは萌えでは？」
庵野さん「TVでやってるときは、まだ萌えがなかった。僕もセーラームーンは好きですよ。TVは、時間なかったのは確か。25話が時間なくて、その25話を劇場版で作り直したんです」
庵野さん「最終回の26話は元々あんな終わりなんです。16話の、使徒とシンジが対話するシーンで、鶴巻さんが日本語を禁じたんですよ。それでえー！ ってなって、それから自分と自分との対話というテーマになって、他人とどう折り合いを付けるかという終わりになった」
庵野さん「あれ（26話）、4日で作りましたからね。先にアフレコして、それから絵コンテを描いてってやってました」

Student Questioner: What about the final episode of the TV series? You said you dislike moe, but isn't Asuka moe?

Anno: When I did the TV series, there was as yet no such thing as moe. I like Sailor Moon as well. For the TV series, we certainly ran out of time. We had no time for episode 25, so we remade it for the theatrical edition. The final episode, episode 26, was going to be that way originally. In the scene in episode 16 which depicts a conversation between Shinji and the angel, Tsurumaki-san forbade [the angel's use of] Japanese. So due to that, the theme became from then on conversations with oneself, and it ended with the question of how you can come to terms with other people. We did [the finale] in four days. We did the voice recording first, and then drew the storyboards.

質問「この大学はどうだったか？」
庵野さん「仲間ができたことが一番良かった。大学の友達ってのは一生ものになる可能性が高いです。一般（教養）の授業は受けなくなった。特に英語が低レベルすぎた。でも、今一番後悔してるのは、英語を勉強しなかったこと」

Student Question: How was [your time at] the university?

Anno: The best thing was my making friends here. The friends you make at university have a good chance of being your friends throughout your entire life. I ended up not taking the general subject courses. In particular, my level of English was too low. However, the thing I most regret today is not studying English.

[TMBounty_Hunter]

Thank you very much for this!

However, the thing I most regret today is not studying English.

Clearly Anno lurks on this board and tries to get an idea of our silliness through google translate

[Bagheera]

Oh wow, there's some good stuff in there. So the conversation in 16 is confirmed to be between Shinji and Leliel (vs. Shinji and himself or Shinji and Yui), Air is confirmed to be the original intent for 25, and 26 is confirmed to be the intended ending all along. Lots of ammo for concurrency fans there.

I think one of the more interesting parts is the question "Isn't Asuka moe?" Even though Asuka inspired the tsundere stereotype she herself doesn't really fit the mold, and so it's interesting to see that at least some Japanese consider her moe. Moreover, it's interesting that the student chose her as an example instead of the more obvious Rei, who seems a much better fit for the concept. Anyone wanna unpack the idea a bit further?

[Monk Ed]

Oh wow, there's some good stuff in there.

That's an understatement. I'm surprised at just how flatly and simply in this interview he states all kinds of things we have merely supposed or inferred or heard secondhand.

I'm also surprised that Anno is still answering questions about the original Evangelion as recently as last month!

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Oh wow, there's some good stuff in there. So the conversation in 16 is confirmed to be between Shinji and Leliel (vs. Shinji and himself or Shinji and Yui)

Anno's comment is a bit fragmentary, but comparing it with what I recall from other sources, Anno is saying that 16 was going to be a conversation between Shinji and the angel, but because Tsurumaki didn't like the idea of the angel speaking to Shinji in Japanese, they ended up making it a conversation between Shinji and himself, and hit upon the "inner space" idea. Sorry if the translation was confusing.

Of course, that assumes I understood everything correctly ^^

Edit: Looking over things, I think you're right to understand it like that, and that actually Anno's comment makes more sense this way. My apologies~!

[Monk Ed]

In other words, the opposite is confirmed -- the conversation really is between Shinji and himself, because Tsurumaki forbade the original idea? And because of that, the concept of the introspective scenes was born?

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In other words, the opposite is confirmed -- the conversation really is between Shinji and himself, because Tsurumaki forbade the original idea? And because of that, the concept of the introspective scenes was born?

Here's another, much older, comment by Anno on the scene, slightly different but (I think) a similar narrative.

[Bagheera]

In other words, the opposite is confirmed -- the conversation really is between Shinji and himself, because Tsurumaki forbade the original idea? And because of that, the concept of the introspective scenes was born?

It sounds to me more like Leliel took on the role of Shinji (just as Arael and Armisael took on the roles of Asuka and Rei respectively) because Tsurumaki didn't want the Angels speaking Japanese directly.

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It sounds to me more like Leliel took on the role of Shinji (just as Arael and Armisael took on the roles of Asuka and Rei respectively) because Tsurumaki didn't want the Angels speaking Japanese directly.

I think you're right. Now that I think of it, Oguro in his later commentary maintains that this is in fact the case:

内的宇宙の前半は現在の彼の姿をした「シンジＡ」と、子供の姿をした「シンジＢ」の会話で展開している。物語の筋としては「シンジＡ」が本物の彼で、「シンジＢ」は第12使徒だ。使徒がシンジの心を探る為に「シンジＢ」として、コンタクトをとってきたわけである。

The first half of the inner space sequence is the development of a dialogue between Shinji "A," which has his present form, and Shinji "B," which has the form of a child. In the plot, Shinji "A" is the real him, and Shinji "B" is the 12th Angel. In order to probe Shinji's mind, the Angel initiates contact as Shinji "B."

He also says:

古びた電車の中を舞台にしたのは鶴巻和哉副監督のアイディア。

It was Tsurumaki's idea to use an antique train as a setting.

I have seen some other interviews which discuss this but it slips my mind where and which they are right now....

Edit: Of course, the RCB is one of them. From Bochan_bird's translation:

-- Episode 16 made quite an impression, and seemed to mark a turning point for Evangelion.
KT - That's because it was the first episode where the direction of drawing from the inside like that appeared.
[Note: Episode 16 "Shi ni itaru yamai, soshite (A Fatal Disease, and then...). Part A consisted of action scenes concerning the 12th Angel, while Part B depicted Shinji's mental and emotional struggles inside his inner universe after being trapped inside the Angel. Mr. Tsurumaki handled the story boards, production and setting assistance for this episode.]

-- Did you plan the episode to portray Shinji's inner feelings from the start?
KT - No. That episode was situated close to episodes 10, 11 and 12, and was originally just another episode in which an Angel appeared. However, amidst the flow of the mysteries surrounding the Angels gradually being resolved, we decided to insert an episode where an Angel appeared to take an interest in humans.

-- I see.
KT - The first draft of the scenario was actually a dialog between Shinji and the Angel. However, we felt it would be too anti-climactic to have an Angel start talking like some pulp fiction alien (speaks while tapping his Adam's apple with his hand) "Your analog mode of thought is incorrect." So we came up with the idea actually used in this episode, which was to have Shinji converse with himself.

[robersora]

I love you for translating us all the moonspeak. So much about EVA would have never been accessible to us Westeners without you! I'm truly grateful for that.

On another note...

[The script?] is already finished provisionally, but I am reworking it, rewriting over and over again.

Well, that confirms the release date for Final being at least in 2015. And there I was, hoping for an earlier release, because of the 2013 announcement they made ages ago.

[Monk Ed]

You might well be right. Now that I think of it, Oguro in his later commentary maintains that this is in fact the case:

Ah, well, now, that is something else.

Sweet. I'll have to get around to rewatching that part of ep 16 with this new info in mind to see if there are new insights to be gleaned.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Holy shit! This is awesome! So, it looks like EoTV 26 was the originally intended ending, and EoE 26 was the alternate ending? (I guess that makes sense. Why tell the exact same story twice anyway?)

That's an odd criss-cross between continuities, though. EoE 25 was the originally intended, but EoTV 25 was not. EoTV 26 was the intended ending, but EoE 26 wasn't. I wonder if all of that criss-crossing between Anno's intended endings and his alternate endings in the original franchise is what resulted in the final version of Death & Rebirth to contain no so-called "Director's Cuts" of the TV show; it's just more criss-crossing between the two endings that makes sense in some way to Anno.

To raise one more question: What does this actually mean when it comes to perceiving and interpreting the original franchise as it stands now? Should Anno's criss-crossing between his original thoughts and his alternate thoughts force us to re-arrange his endings to fit his original and alternate thoughts? Or should we just perceive the show's endings in the form they were presented to us anyway? (It's clear that this criss-crossing was intentional, and, if one wanted to carry the author's interpretation into perceiving the work itself, the deliberate criss-crossing of endings could carry greater meaning behind it.)

[pwhodges]

I took it to mean that the planned 25 was skipped, and so the planned 26 became TV 25+26 (otherwise TV 25 is unaccounted for).

As for Death; the original version introduced the Director's Cut additions, and once the DC episodes had been released in that form, then they were removed from Death to avoid unnecessary duplication.

[Sailor Star Dust]

It is pretty hilarious how straightforward Anno's answers are on long speculated things. Thanks so much for translating this, Number-kun. I'm tempted to sticky this thread, given the various info it provided us...

And looking forward to Final in 2015 (I'd hope).

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

Huh, that's interesting. It's a bit of a revelation when it comes to some of those introspective conversations.

[WunderBah]

I was hoping he would answer question about Q though..... :(

[Xard]

Holy shit! This is awesome! So, it looks like EoTV 26 was the originally intended ending, and EoE 26 was the alternate ending?

EoTV and EoE meet almost beat-by-beat all the way up to One More Final, even down to the clear blue sky theme of final chat between Rei, Kaworu and Shinji that is shared with Omedetou scene.

The deviation comes with One More Final which is named like it is for a reason.

This is why I think both concurrency "theorists" and those against it have been right all along. EoE goes beyond EoTV and is informed by Anno's post-series state of mind but it also is on all essential points identical with television series and largerly based on original scripts for television ending.

Anyway, by far the most shocking info in this topic for me is that Tsurumaki suggested the train theme for, err, hell train sequences. Because really, what is more Anno than goddamn trains? Nothing, that is. Nice job on the interview. I found Nadia bits more fascinating because Anno's Eva comments didn't really have anything we didn't know before from other sources or that couldn't be inferred from them.

Though I do wonder what he exactly means with 趣味で遊びのところもあるし/Sometimes it's play according to my interests. Since context is thought provoking material I guess Anno is saying Eva's more metaphysical rambles and moments of waxing poetical that ain't strictly about psychology/introspective studies are about his personal points of interest and curiosity. But I'm not really sure.

[Monk Ed]

EoTV and EoE meet almost beat-by-beat all the way up to One More Final (...) The deviation comes with One More Final which is named like it is for a reason.

One More Final is the name of the entire 26`, not the final scene.

[Xard]

One More Final is the name of the entire 26`, not the final scene.

Nope. Name of Episode 26' proper is Magokoro wo, kimi ni usually translated "My Purest Heart For You".





One More Final comes immeaditly after the final line that ends the Eva main story both in television series and in film: Goodbye, my mother. Not only that the name format for OMF is fundamentally different as it is not marked as part of either episode 25' or 26' like eg. Air/Love is Destructive is just like My purest Heart For You earlier:



In contrast to title cards naming Episodes 25' and 26' above OMF is simply:





Really, it's all in the title. "One More Final" implies it's yet another finale for series. New finale in what sense? Episode 26' provides already closure for the series in same way Episode 26 did, hitting all the key themes and states in Shinji's progression. One More Final signifies epilogue and continuation of the story that has already reached its finale. As EoE's narrative has not reached its resolution untill right before OMF title screen it would make no sense to name all of ep 26' "One More Final".

It is only the One More Final scene (and to lesser extent LA sequence as its inversion of school comedy anime parody segment in EoTV) that actually pushes EoE beyond reimagining in more detail and depth EoTV and thus ends up breaking rather strict concurrency.

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Though I do wonder what he exactly means with 趣味で遊びのところもあるし/Sometimes it's play according to my interests. Since context is thought provoking material I guess Anno is saying Eva's more metaphysical rambles and moments of waxing poetical that ain't strictly about psychology/introspective studies are about his personal points of interest and curiosity. But I'm not really sure.

My own guess is it means something like, moments inspired by Anno's "otaku-like" hobbies and interests. For example, the use of all the ships in Q might be this kind of play. A better translation is probably "doing things for fun."