Misconceptions on Anno & fanservice

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Re: Misconceptions on Anno & fanservice

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Postby arilando » Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:50 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:It's not really a delusion in Kill la Kill, though, since it's actually an explicit part of the text. But if you're talking about Misato's butt shot or Asuka's crotch shot or the test suit in Ha there's a bit more room to argue.

I find it a very unlikely interpretation that the creators were trying to make some kind of statement against fanservice, considering the comments of some staff members that they enjoyed the fanservice in the show. There does seem to be some playful mockery, but believing that the statement the show is trying to make is that fanservice is somehow wrong, as i've seen some fans of the series do, is delusional.

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Re: Misconceptions on Anno & fanservice

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Postby Bagheera » Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:59 pm

View Original Postarilando wrote:I find it a very unlikely interpretation that the creators were trying to make some kind of statement against fanservice, considering the comments of some staff members that they enjoyed the fanservice in the show. There does seem to be some playful mockery, but believing that the statement the show is trying to make is that fanservice is somehow wrong, as i've seen some fans of the series do, is delusional.


Dude, the show is about clothes. It is insanely self-aware, and the notion that any fanservice it employs is not without explicit purpose is nonsensical. Your entire premise here just doesn't make any sense.
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Re: Misconceptions on Anno & fanservice

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Postby arilando » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:02 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Dude, the show is about clothes. It is insanely self-aware, and the notion that any fanservice it employs is not without explicit purpose is nonsensical. Your entire premise here just doesn't make any sense.

What exactly, doesn't make sense? I haven't made the claim that "fanservice it employs is not without explicit purpose", i simply stated that believing that the anime is trying to make a statement against fanservice is delusional. That is not equavalent to claiming that the fanservice is meaningless.

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Re: Misconceptions on Anno & fanservice

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Postby Bagheera » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:35 pm

View Original Postarilando wrote:What exactly, doesn't make sense?


Your entire premise. The notion that the show isn't making a statement just plain doesn't work given that it is what it is, and the notion that it doesn't critique fanservice doesn't work since it does just that on several occasions. Your claim that such notions are delusional fails on account of simple logic.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Misconceptions on Anno & fanservice

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Postby NemZ » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:37 pm

KLK embraces fanservice at the level of a crucial plot device. Saying it's arguing against fanservice is... dubious.
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Re: Misconceptions on Anno & fanservice

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Postby arilando » Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:02 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Your entire premise. The notion that the show isn't making a statement just plain doesn't work given that it is what it is, and the notion that it doesn't critique fanservice doesn't work since it does just that on several occasions. Your claim that such notions are delusional fails on account of simple logic.

I didn't say it didn't make any statement regarding fanservice. I said that the show isn't meant as a criticism against fanservice.

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Re: Misconceptions on Anno & fanservice

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Postby Bagheera » Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:41 am

View Original PostNemZ wrote:KLK embraces fanservice at the level of a crucial plot device. Saying it's arguing against fanservice is... dubious.


When it's become a crucial plot device it's gotten to the level where it's no longer really fanservice, though. The point with KLK is that there's a lot of room to talk about what's going on and why, and that the fanservice it does employ is very rarely gratuitous (though there are some obvious exceptions). That's why people say it's a statement against fanservice -- the fanservice it uses is used for a purpose, not for shits and grins.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Misconceptions on Anno & fanservice

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Postby arilando » Thu Mar 31, 2016 3:24 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:When it's become a crucial plot device it's gotten to the level where it's no longer really fanservice, though. The point with KLK is that there's a lot of room to talk about what's going on and why, and that the fanservice it does employ is very rarely gratuitous (though there are some obvious exceptions). That's why people say it's a statement against fanservice -- the fanservice it uses is used for a purpose, not for shits and grins.

It's clearly both. And the series is clearly not negative about the use of fanservice in general.

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Re: Misconceptions on Anno & fanservice

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Postby Bagheera » Thu Mar 31, 2016 3:59 am

View Original Postarilando wrote:It's clearly both. And the series is clearly not negative about the use of fanservice in general.


That's not clear at all, as there are any number of ways to read the themes and intent of the show. It actually can be read as a statement against sexism and gratuitous fanservice, and there's a lot of support for such a reading in the show. There's just support for lots of other readings as well. It's a layered and complex show, and not the best example for the argument you're trying to make here.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Misconceptions on Anno & fanservice

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Postby arilando » Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:04 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:That's not clear at all, as there are any number of ways to read the themes and intent of the show. It actually can be read as a statement against sexism and gratuitous fanservice, and there's a lot of support for such a reading in the show. There's just support for lots of other readings as well. It's a layered and complex show, and not the best example for the argument you're trying to make here.

Not only is it an example, it's one of the best examples. The article you linked, if anything, is evidence of my assertion. Fans worrying over their liking of a "misogynistic" "objectifying" series. Other judgemental fucks arguing it's a bad series becuase it's "rapey".

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Re: Misconceptions on Anno & fanservice

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Apr 01, 2016 8:51 am

View Original Postarilando wrote:Not only is it an example, it's one of the best examples. The article you linked, if anything, is evidence of my assertion.


How?
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Misconceptions on Anno & fanservice

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Postby cunning linguist » Fri Aug 12, 2016 6:31 pm

In regards to fanservice, anno needs to put his money where his mouth is and shake those tailfeathers, start bellydancing or something. then he can produce true erotic art, taken from and legitimized by his own experiences. maybe he could collaborate with ron jeremy and/or hard gay. it would empower animu grills everywhere.

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Re: Misconceptions on Anno & fanservice

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Postby arilando » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:36 pm


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Re: Misconceptions on Anno & fanservice

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Postby busterbeam » Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:20 pm

View Original Postarilando wrote:Relevant video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXQPE1GHk9Y

Hey, that's my video.

I could write essays about this shit (as I pretty much did for that upload), but I think the simplest summary is: absolutely nothing about Kill la Kill's staff implies they are critical of fanservice, quite the opposite. Imaishi didn't put "objectification" in things like Gurren Lagann because the industry demanded it, against his own personal wishes; he draws boatloads of "problematic objectification" in his doujin works made for fun. Reading Kill la Kill as "critical of fanservice" is a bizarre straw-grasp the more you discuss it.

"The male characters are sexualized too, so why would the show be against it? It's literally equal-opportunity fanservice!"
"Uhm ACTUALLY it's like the Hawkeye Initiative, the point is to show how disgusting fanservice is by applying it to men!"
aaaaaa

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Re: Misconceptions on Anno & fanservice

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Postby Lavinius » Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:28 pm

Fanservice, like most sources of pleasure, is good when it is tasteful & temperate; Anno's fanservice is usually so.
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Re: Misconceptions on Anno & fanservice

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Postby The Killer of Heroes » Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:43 pm

View Original Postbusterbeam wrote:Hey, that's my video.
I watched your video for the first time a few months ago myself. Its good stuff IMHO.

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Re: Misconceptions on Anno & fanservice

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Postby Kendrix » Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:14 pm

I certainly can't stand this idea that any sort sexual content needs some sort of "justification" & then ppl bend over backwards to explain why the boobs in THEIR favorite show are totally intellectual while everyone else's are totally filthy.

Porn & ecchi are genres that exist. They bring ppl pleasure, just like cuteness or power fantasies do.

This is even true for violent stuff - violence happens, so we think about it, so we draw/write it. No one ever asks "was that murder necessary" about action flicks the way they talk about stuff like GoT.
We're practically programmed to be obsessed with things that scare & disgust us so we'll think of ways to avoid them.
looking at a safe fantasy version behind a screen that cant hurt you can even be a way to vent that fear.


Eva is
a) not aimed at grade schoolers or younger
b) explores sexuality as an actual theme
b) concerned with human nature/ the human form
so it makes sense.

There is certainly a problem that in our current climate it's hard to find material without sexual content if you want it, or anything but a particular kind (aimed at hetero men) But the solution is not "no sexy stuff ever" but "don't shoehorn in it because the execs say so" or "do more stuff without it/ from different PoVs".
It's just bad writing when it's put where it doesn't make sense (warriors in heel & bikini, boring satellite love interest, everyone looks like a model and wear makeup all the time)
And what's unacceptable under any circumstances is when real life human actresses are forced into shit they don't want or get hurt cause ppl want them to wear heels etc.

Obviously social trends etc have to be considered. I just wished we could get back to nuanced critique between "X is perfect" and "burn them at the stake!"

But I think something like a scene in Blade Runner, the old James Bond Movies or Star Wars where a cool hero acts pushy and its just treated as normal or cool is much more questionable than something like Game of Thrones where a bad person does something that the other person is then visibly hurt and horrified by. (just as physical violence in war, its way worse if the butcher is a war hero than a horror film that treats it as scary)

But even that just means you wouldn't show it to some young kid without media competency unless you're sitting next to them to discuss it, like those old racist cartoons. I'd keep hoping that society will keep getting more and more enlightened so everything will be outof date eventually.
Or values will just change even if they don't improve - you don't expect some stuff from ancient china to have the same values as us today.
We probably don't have it all figured out yet either, and in the future they will find us ridiculous.

Obviously some ppl just don't have listening comprehension, like I've seen ppl hating on bands like Nin or rammstein that have songs written from the PoV of crazy murders.
Someone who wants to say that rape and murder are great probably wouldn't refer to the narrator as having a "sick brain" or refer to what they're doing as "reducing" the other person.


So if I would change anything in EVA is having Touji and Kensuke scolded for the locker room photo or just not having that one picture if the intention was for it to be a lighthearted prank and maybe tone down some of the Kaji flirting scenes that's something that aged poorly/ looks dated.
The hospital scene is clearly shown as a bad thing.
Finding pleasure in seeing a cartoon boob is morally neutral & not something any amount of crusading is ever going to curb.

Even looking at my own older writing I notice that now that I've actually seen plenty of genitals I'm not as charged/obsessed with it, but when I was younger, my thinking would naturally go to "but did he feel her boob through her shirt??!!" because it was novel and exciting and we're kind of programmed to be excited by it.

When i first watched the show as a teen, it just matched where my thoughts were naturally going.
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