Touji & Kensuke in Eva-01, ep 3: Got a problem with it?

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Touji & Kensuke in Eva-01, ep 3: Got a problem with it?

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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:02 pm

[Split from here. - Monk]

View Original PostTMBounty_Hunter wrote:On a final note, 1.0 actually just magics a 4th hatch into existance when it needs it regardless of the earlier x-ray view of the plug and all existing lineart.
SPOILER: Show

Nothing will ever make Toji in Eva-01's entry plug ever make sense. It is a decades old conundrum.

The hatch which opens could just be a platform the two stand on before using the top hatch, but I doubt it.
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Postby ElMariachi » Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:59 pm

The more funny of that scene is that the hatch opens on the side of the entry plug, which is filled with LCL, yet not a single droplet escaped from that hatch! :lol:
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Postby Stillborn » Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:47 pm

That detail always bothered me. Does LCL was drained just to get additiona passangers and then "somehow" refilled? I was never much into Evas mysteries, but this still bothered me.
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Postby Monk Ed » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:29 pm

You guys find the weirdest things to worry about.

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Postby Jurrasic » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:59 am

it's one of those few things in Eva where I had to deliberately shut off my thinking circuits and invoke the MST3K mantra: "You should say to your self it's just a show, I should really just relax."

Because it was too fucking stupid for words that 2 more guys could suddenly be added into a chamber that required a huge structural support and massive hydraulic cranes and shit to even get ONE person loaded into and out of, that all 3 of them could fit into the plug at all, AND have the Eva function even close to properly with 2 foreign souls/minds alongside the pilots! Shogouki should have berzerked at best, start crayfishing all over the hillside most likely, or just frozen entirely at worst. :explode:

okay, all done now. :facepalm:
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Postby Monk Ed » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:58 am

View Original PostJurrasic wrote:Because it was too fucking stupid for words that 2 more guys could suddenly be added into a chamber that required a huge structural support and massive hydraulic cranes and shit to even get ONE person loaded into and out of, that all 3 of them could fit into the plug at all, AND have the Eva function even close to properly with 2 foreign souls/minds alongside the pilots! Shogouki should have berzerked at best, start crayfishing all over the hillside most likely, or just frozen entirely at worst. :explode:

So wait, why exactly is all this a problem? How does using a crane within Nerv HQ make it incredible that some other means could do in a pinch? And the most confounding one of all is why you think multiple people in the entry plug would cause huge problems, because it's not like the rules of "synchronization interference" are entirely known or even half-way known.

(If this tangent grows I'll split it out gladly.)
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Postby pwhodges » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:45 am

View Original PostMonk Ed wrote:it's not like the rules of "synchronization interference" are entirely known or even half-way known.

True; but Shinji's thoughts are known to interfere with Asuka's when he is in Unit-02 with her, so two panicking strangers would seem likely to be worse. On the other hand, it could indicate the strength of Shinji's link with Unit-01 that they don't cause a problem.
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Postby Monk Ed » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:08 am

Actually, checking the episode just now, Touji and Kensuke do cause problems for Shinji by being in the entry plug.

Episode 3 wrote:IBUKI (OFF):
Abnormal conditions occurring in the nervous system!

RITSUKO:
Of course. It's because you've allowed two foreign bodies into
the plug. They're introducing noise in the nerve impulse systems!

This brings up another point: Even if Maya and Ritsuko hadn't said this (as they don't in the Rebuild equivalent scene), would we still be inclined to assume that it's not there unless mentioned? :hahaha:

Still mad, Jurrasic? :lol:
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Postby pwhodges » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:12 am

The instruments show the added noise in the system, but it clearly causes no problem to Shinji, which is the point.
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Postby Monk Ed » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:35 am

The point, if we're still talking about Jurrasic's, was that Eva-01 should be berserking or frozen or "crayfishing" (never heard that term myself) because of the introduction of two more people into the plug... for some reason. I don't see why that should be expected.

I mean, how much did Shinji's thoughts even interfere with Asuka's piloting? At bootup, and that one time he wrested the controls away from her, and... that's about it. Between those two things, she was precision-jumping between ships like a pro, a sequence which included a cut of Shinji spiral-eyed behind her.
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Postby ElMariachi » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:50 am

Wasn't Shinji wearing one of Asuka's set of A-10 clips when he was with her in episode 8? Besides he was wearing a plugsuit(Asuka's) and during the first time Shinji piloted, his synch was at 43% and Maya was astonished that he could reach a ratio that high even without wearing a plugsuit, meaning that somehow the plugsuit increase the pilot's synchronization.
Besides Shinji know "how" to think to make move an EVA, which could adds to the interferences with Asuka's piloting.

So Shinji wearing a pluguit + the A-10 clips + knowing "how" to think = big interference with Asuka.
Toji and Kensuke without plugsuits or clips and not thinking anything asides "HOLY SHIT" = lesser interference with Shinji.
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Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby Kendrix » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:52 am

View Original PostJurrasic wrote:
Because it was too fucking stupid for words that 2 more guys could suddenly be added into a chamber that required a huge structural support and massive hydraulic cranes and shit to even get ONE person loaded into and out of, that all 3 of them could fit into the plug at all, AND have the Eva function even close to properly with 2 foreign souls/minds alongside the pilots! Shogouki should have berzerked at best, start crayfishing all over the hillside most likely, or just frozen entirely at worst. :explode:
:


We see Asuka just jump into in in ep 08, too. (much like her rebuild-counterpart jumps *out*)
The cranes & stuff are probably optional, if they don't serve to hold the EVA in than they doo to let it out; This is an apocalypse-averting weapon, it makes sensde to ready it for every emergency.

Also, Kensuke and Touji enter at the upmost end, while the pilot will typically be in the middle of the plug or even deeper inside; Maybe they just don't fill it all the way up.

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:The instruments show the added noise in the system, but it clearly causes no problem to Shinji, which is the point.


The interface does go all wobbly, more spectacularly so in Rebuild.
We ca assume that controlling the EVA just got a bit harder, but Shinji still pwns Shamshel because he's awesome like that.
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:12 am

Synch problems aside, my biggest complaint is simply on how Toji and Kensuke physically get into the plug. Not that that is the only complaint with this scene. I'll just repeat what I said about this in the commentary

OMF wrote:This whole scene has to rate pretty highly on the Suspension-of-Disbelief-O-Meter. First off, how is Nerv seemingly able to loop Eva's synaptic commands? How the hell did Toji and Kensuke climb up to the plug so fast? Why didn't all the LCL just spill out of the plug? And don't the two seem to accept breathing liquid awfully quickly? That said, it's worth it all just to get Toji inside the plug…


And it really is worth it. The construction of the scene is fairly haphazard, but there is a powerful payoff. Impossible to fanwank any kind of reasonable explanation though.
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Postby Monk Ed » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:19 pm

OMF wrote:how is Nerv seemingly able to loop Eva's synaptic commands?

Why not? As we learn later with dummy plugs, Evas don't actually even need pilots. Maybe looping is relatively easy to do thanks to some principle that gets exploited later to create the dummy plug. (This probably rated on the suspension-of-disbelief-o-meters of only like one in a million people.)
How the hell did Toji and Kensuke climb up to the plug so fast?

Off the top of my head: by being pulled up -- by that thing that extends down from the entry plug in Rebuild. There's even time for it: Misato gives Shinji the order to let them in right after Maya says there's 3 minutes left. That's at 18:09 into the episode. At 19:09, Shinji's timer reads that he has 1 minute left. So between those two events, there is an entire minute of in-world time that was skipped over. Plenty of time for Touji and Kensuke to run over to the thing that extends down from the entry plug in Rebuild and then be pulled back up with it as it retracts.
Why didn't all the LCL just spill out of the plug?

When Touji and Kensuke get inside, the one light that shows has a wavy refraction effect on it indicating that there is a surface of liquid between it and us. Then the cockpit fills and that effect goes away. All an entry plug would need is a ballast tank or whatever you call it to store some unspecified amount of LCL. What's the mystery here? We already know that entry plugs fill up and fill down.
And don't the two seem to accept breathing liquid awfully quickly?

LCL isn't a real substance, so there's plenty of room to imagine all sorts of properties. Maybe most Lilin instinctively acclimate to it very quickly because they are products of Lilith, and Shinji was the weirdo for taking more than an instant because of his personality (like, mistrusting the same sensation that caused Touji and Kensuke to accept the substance into their lungs with such ease). Or maybe it becomes more like air when it's been charged, as others before me have supposed.

I submit that what I just did is not an omnislash because each quoted portion was short and in the form of a question, making my post more like a Q&A, which are known to be easy to read.
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:05 pm

Actually, I think that's the first fully reasonable explanation I've ever read for the entire incident. It should be noted that the winch is not present in NGE explicitly, but other than that most of those points are quite plausible.
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Postby K40s » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:09 am

What bothered me about that scene was that isn't Eva-01 grabbing Shamshel by the tentacles when they half eject the entry plug so Toji and Kensuke enter it? Wouldn't that cut synchronization with the Eva turning it off? How is Eva-01 still struggling with Shamshel with the pilot disconnected?

I remember reading that the entry plug worked as a way to "complete the circuit" of the Evangelion vertebrae, so basically without an entry plug an Eva is a gigantic paraplegic.

I even think they go through a synchronization reboot after Kensuke and Toji get in, does it?

I guess that it being half ejected could mean that Shinji is still synchronizing with it, although when Yui rejects the dummy plug we see the same, a half ejected plug and Eva-01 shutting down... although in the other hand we see Eva-00 completely ejecting Rei's entry plug and continue on going berserker... maybe the whole "paraplegic A-10 spine circuit" is wrong?

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Postby Monk Ed » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:07 am

View Original PostK40s wrote:maybe the whole "paraplegic A-10 spine circuit" is wrong?

That would be the conclusion to draw, yep.

I didn't even know about this theory.
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Postby K40s » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:18 am

View Original PostMonk Ed wrote:That would be the conclusion to draw, yep.

I didn't even know about this theory.
Probably someone better versed in it will elaborate, but if I'm recalling correctly it has to do with the A-10 being the designation for a specific vertebrae or something along those lines... the biological Eva vertebrae being replaced with the entry plug hole and it being used to close the circuit, so basically the Eva is paraplegic from the neck down without the plug.

Also that circuit breaking plug we see in Eva-00 (the cross plug) when it still is frozen after going berserk during Rei's activation test, seems to be involved too...

I remember reading all this either on the wiki or somewhere here in the forum, but I can't find it...

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Postby ElMariachi » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:32 am

Yet that theory of the entry plug closing the EVA's neural circuit get disproved in the the very first episode when Yui moves EVA-01 to protect Shinji from the falling lamps...

And there are other instances of an EVA moving without an entry plug : when EVA-00 had gone berserk like you said, or when Kaworu activated EVA-02(he ordered it, not directly mentally controlled it, since when he passed the "Heaven's Door" and let EVA-02 being to fight Shinji he didn't knew that EVA-02 was losing until it's limp form fell through the door) or in EoE when Yui broke the bakelite to let Shinji jump inside.
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Postby Jurrasic » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:50 am

View Original PostMonk Ed wrote:Actually, checking the episode just now, Touji and Kensuke do cause problems for Shinji by being in the entry plug.


This brings up another point: Even if Maya and Ritsuko hadn't said this (as they don't in the Rebuild equivalent scene), would we still be inclined to assume that it's not there unless mentioned? :hahaha:

Still mad, Jurrasic? :lol:


Heh, I am never 'mad' cos I turn my brain off whenever that episode comes up. (or skip past that part.) I firmly believe in the brain-bleach school of ignoring stupid shit, otherwise I probablly would have gone Third Impact on the world along time ago. :tongue:

Let's clarify a bit:

By 'Crayfishing' (maybe you've heard 'Crawdaddying' if you're from the Southern/Eastern U.S., Crayfishing is perhaps a North/West or maybe purely Canadian term) I mean 'doing the bacon' or pick your other less offensive term for jerking and spasming uncontrolably from random misfired nerve impulses from the brain.

After all, the entry plug and pilot is already essentially a 'mind parasite' inside the nervous system of an Evangelion, disguised in it's hemolymph fluid (LCL) and carefully synchronized into the mental and muscle routines via a-10 nerve clips and plugsuits. Adding 2 untrained, unsynched and plain-clothed minds into that careful environment should cause massive chaos, or complete collapse.


Let's just say that I would expect a lot more problems. Shinji still seemed to have full control, enough to pop the prog-knife and charge down the hill and go stabbity-stab on our good buddy Shamshel until the battery ran out.

*EDIT* I missed K40's comments:
Yes that is another thing about that scene that bugged the piss out of me AT FIRST, I would have expected the Eva to collapse too. However, I thought about it some.

It seems that the Eva is still it's own life-form and while the human 'mind parasite' takes over and directs the physical movement when inside, as long as it is powered up the Eva can still work on it's own as well, functioning as 'it wants to' without the entry plug with pilot inserted.

It requires the 'terminator' (cross) plug to actually freeze all mental commands from the Eva's brain to the rest of the body in all circumstances. Presumably the fact that Evas are kept in an unpowered state 99% of the time prevents movement in all but the most serious circumstances (Eva 1 protecting Shinji in the first episode) so they don't need to leave the terminator plug in all the time.

So in conclusion, this is Eva, not everything has to make sense, but this scene makes far too little sense for me. :facepalm:
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