How is Shinji responsible for 3rd Impact? [Split]

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How is Shinji responsible for 3rd Impact? [Split]

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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:00 pm

[Split from "Failures of Infinity: Don't Lose Your Head!". The discussion was broader than impact mechanics (including, e.g., whether Shinji should really be held responsible for what happened) so I opted not to roll it back in with the Impact Mechanics thread. - Monk]

But everyone apparently blames Shinji for that. Kaworu even says that he was the cause. But if he was, then why wasn't he executed on sight by Wille? Why would Sakura be so amiable towards him?

And so we return to what exactly happened in N3I/3I and Shinji's role in events. It seems the more we discover, the less we seem to find out.
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Postby ElMariachi » Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:29 pm

Well, we're not even sure of that : WILLE accuse and is punishing Shinji of something, but they never go the time to explain what, the only source we have is Kaworu, and most of what he said about Third Impact completely contradicts with what we saw of N3I in 2.0, such as Lilith's Chamber being the epicenter of the Impact although EVA-01's awakening happened kilometers above in the Geofront.

Maybe WILLE is "just" punishing Shinji for almost having triggered an Impact and the DSS Choker was put on him because they feared what he could have become after staying 14 years absorbed inside his God-EVA(remember that the DSS Choker was initially created for Kaworu and that WILLE kept designing Shinji as "BM-03" during his whole stay, meaning that even when Mark.09 busted him out they were still not sure that this boy really was Shinji and not... "something else".

But yeah, we don't know everything(or really anything) about what happened in the time skip, and a lot of answers about 3.0 could come from these missing informations.
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Postby thegoodson » Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:23 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Well, we're not even sure of that : WILLE accuse and is punishing Shinji of something, but they never go the time to explain what, the only source we have is Kaworu, and most of what he said about Third Impact completely contradicts with what we saw of N3I in 2.0, such as Lilith's Chamber being the epicenter of the Impact although EVA-01's awakening happened kilometers above in the Geofront.


I'm confused, and I don't have the .mkv with me right now. I thought they said where Unit 01 merged with Rei was the epicenter? Because that makes sense since the epicenter is the point directly above the hypocenter, or the main event.

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Postby ElMariachi » Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:10 pm

When Kaworu and Shinji are piloting EVA-13 and arrive in Lilith's Chamber, Kaworu tells him that it was the "epicenter of Third Impact"... which completely contradict what we saw in 2.0 : when EVA-01 became a god it was kilometers above, in the Geofront.
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Postby BlueBasilisk » Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:26 pm

Image

Kaworu's choice of words during the big reveal is kind of interesting too. He says Third Impact happened while Shinji was merged with Unit 01, which implies concurrence, but he never actually says that Shinji CAUSED it. He did create that chasm and rend the surface of the Geofront, but the world didn't look nearly that bad when we left it in 2.22. It seems pretty obvious that something else happened that we haven't seen yet, and with the way everyone keeps blaming Shinji, I wonder if Unit 01/Shinji weren't somehow brought out of hibernation and he can't remember it for some reason.[/spoiler]

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Postby robersora » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:04 am

Well, maybe someone has already posted this idea, but maybe the reason for Kaworu's jumping between terms (near-third and fourth impact respectively) is that there was indeed going down more shit at a later point, after Kaworu canceled near-third-impact. So basically Seele instructed Kaworu to lie to Shinji about the happenings while Shinji was in sleep-mode, because Seele WANTED him to pull the spears. So basically Kaworu knows this, but is not only being manipulated by Seele, but is also manipulative towards Shinji. He just juggles the terms in the end, because he knows, he will die and sees no reason to lie to Shinji any longer.

So, if this is true, why does Wille hate Shinji? Maybe they were incarcerated while all this stuff happened, so they just kind of assume that it was all Shinji's fault. OR they blame him for even STARTING third impact which was stopped by Kaworu, then RESUMED, and stopped once again.
So people are not angry with him that he fucked up the world, but that he set the course for it.

I hope that was understandable.
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Postby wiser3754 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:45 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Well, we're not even sure of that : WILLE accuse and is punishing Shinji of something, but they never go the time to explain what, the only source we have is Kaworu, and most of what he said about Third Impact completely contradicts with what we saw of N3I in 2.0, such as Lilith's Chamber being the epicenter of the Impact although EVA-01's awakening happened kilometers above in the Geofront.

Maybe WILLE is "just" punishing Shinji for almost having triggered an Impact and the DSS Choker was put on him because they feared what he could have become after staying 14 years absorbed inside his God-EVA(remember that the DSS Choker was initially created for Kaworu and that WILLE kept designing Shinji as "BM-03" during his whole stay, meaning that even when Mark.09 busted him out they were still not sure that this boy really was Shinji and not... "something else".

But yeah, we don't know everything(or really anything) about what happened in the time skip, and a lot of answers about 3.0 could come from these missing informations.


Didn't Ritsuko mention that the reason the put the Choker on him is because he pushed his emotions too far while in EVA-01 causing awakenings, and thus the Choker is there should he succumb to his emotions again, the Choker will prevent awakenings (terminating his life)?
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Postby ElMariachi » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:30 am

Yes, the reason for the Choker is that during Operation US he proved to still be able to awake EVA-01, even though his sync-rate is at 0.00%
But if they didn't really needed to put a DSS Choker on him if they didn't wanted him to pilot : he's a 14 years old boy in a giant ship he don't know and full of armed and trained soldiers, there is no way Shinji could sneak past all the security and enter in EVA-01(which is in a giant armored "womb") or 02 and 08(which are probably heavily guarded) to trigger an Impact. Hell, they didn't even thought that neo-NERV would have any interest in the kid!

That's why I think that there is another more important reason why WILLE put a DSS Choker on Shinji.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:26 am

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:

Kaworu's choice of words during the big reveal is kind of interesting too. He says Third Impact happened while Shinji was merged with Unit 01, which implies concurrence, but he never actually says that Shinji CAUSED it. He did create that chasm and rend the surface of the Geofront, but the world didn't look nearly that bad when we left it in 2.22. It seems pretty obvious that something else happened that we haven't seen yet, and with the way everyone keeps blaming Shinji, I wonder if Unit 01/Shinji weren't somehow brought out of hibernation and he can't remember it for some reason.[/spoiler]

Possibly. Though, I'm also not sure how much time went by during the end credits. Before the end credits the camera and editing takes the viewer through a lot of different things. After the end credits it focuses primarily on Kaworu spearing Unit 01. The scene also takes place in the Geofront. We're also not shown the surface world and what that may look like.

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Postby Pnnn » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:30 am

What if Shinji is responsible for 3rd Impact because he has done nothing? If it was really caused by both Eva01 and Lilith, Shinji probably would be still inside of Eva01's entry plug, still, he has done nothing in order to stop 3rd impact. With this, Kaworu's words might be something like "Look at what you let happen", instead of "Look at what you have done". It may be also why WILLE hasn't killed Shinji nor punished him (c'mon, from what we know about the DSS Choker, its only function is to protect WILLE members).
Also, I was thinking about Asuka in the very end of the movie. She yells something about "You haven't come to save me" at Shinji, so I was thinking, if Third Impact happened right after 2.22, there would be no avaiable pilot nor avaiable unit instead of Mark06 (and the awakened Eva01), so probably everything at NERV HQ blew up, and Asuka was there, so nothing about the Bardiel's incident. What do you think?
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Postby Ramiel² » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:55 am

View Original PostPnnn wrote:What if Shinji is responsible for 3rd Impact because he has done nothing? If it was really caused by both Eva01 and Lilith, Shinji probably would be still inside of Eva01's entry plug, still, he has done nothing in order to stop 3rd impact. With this, Kaworu's words might be something like "Look at what you let happen", instead of "Look at what you have done". It may be also why WILLE hasn't killed Shinji nor punished him (c'mon, from what we know about the DSS Choker, its only function is to protect WILLE members).
Also, I was thinking about Asuka in the very end of the movie. She yells something about "You haven't come to save me" at Shinji, so I was thinking, if Third Impact happened right after 2.22, there would be no avaiable pilot nor avaiable unit instead of Mark06 (and the awakened Eva01), so probably everything at NERV HQ blew up, and Asuka was there, so nothing about the Bardiel's incident. What do you think?


This kinda brought up an idea in my Mind.

What if Shinji was for the perspective of Observer the one at fault, with after the end of 2.22 Eva-01 really somehow became involved ín the REAL third impact, the near third impact layed the foundation of. And Shinji just lost ( or had forcefully by Yui/Rei removed) his Memories.

Just like he APPARENTLY lost his memories of how Yui became trapped in Unit 01.

Imagine for a second: Near 3rd impact happens, Shinji is with Rei and Yui in some kind of limbo. Next angel arives, they pull the spear out from unit 01 to stop the Angel. Shit goes down, unit 01 becomes active and starts to tear shit apart. Somehow they shut it down while freezen the situation by impaling the fusing mark 06 with Lilith.

Shinji was or was not aware of what the "hivemind" of 01 was doing. Then when he is rematerialized he gets his memories taken. Naturally he is disoriented, but no one assumes he is because he was there when shit went down for real. They think he is aware of what happened.

Only for this to be a part of the plan of Yui, who maybe predicted by that what would happen next, to follow along Gendos Plan ( which may or may not in the end diverge again from it as in EoE).

It fulfills ( for me at least) the missing part of Yui Masterminding the situation like in EoE.



The Problem is, that Unit 01 has to be somehow involved in this, as the FoI`s are all copies of 01, but that means the Souls that inhabit Unit01 had to be aware of whats happening, just as Yui is in control when 01 goes Berserk in 1.11. That means Rei and Shinji, as they were trapped in the Core presumably just as Yui is, have to also be aware of whats going on.



To many assumptions? Am i pulling this out of my ass?
This whole unopened Black box about what happened between 2.22 and 3.33 is nagging at my sanity...

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Postby ElMariachi » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:58 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Possibly. Though, I'm also not sure how much time went by during the end credits. Before the end credits the camera and editing takes the viewer through a lot of different things. After the end credits it focuses primarily on Kaworu spearing Unit 01. The scene also takes place in the Geofront. We're also not shown the surface world and what that may look like.

The last shot of the surface we got, just as N3I was peeled open the Geofront, showed that it was dusk, when Kaworu speared EVA-01 the night had fell and the Moon was just above ground level, meaning that at best 15-20 minutes happened(night fall very fast in Japan, in barely 5 minutes!).
And even if the last scene focuses on Kaworu, something as big as the HQ being lifted thousand of meters above ground and thousands of EVA-01 zombies crawling around couldn't have passed unnoticed!
Last edited by ElMariachi on Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby thegoodson » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:21 pm

Alright I'm going to try and explain how Shinji may not have directly caused the stuff in 14 years, and why if that's the case, Wille's treatment of him still makes sense.

Since first seeing the film, I noted that Kaworu's explanation left Shinji's exact role in the events vague, the only exception being that he "initiated" it. The question is how much of the resulting destruction is directly attributable to his awakening the Eva?

Well first off, Shinji definitely cut a big hole in the ground, and probably killed civilians in the city in the process. Its unclear though when all of the stuff with Lilith, the FoI, the assault on Nerv, etc take place. When Kaworu throws the spear, the whole Earth ain't red yet.

My assumption since first seeing the film: everything we see, except for maybe the corification of the city, occured in the 14 year interim period, and Shinji is only responsible for it in the sense that he was the first step in a chain of events that lead to the FoI's, mass extinction, etc. AS WELL AS for seemingly resigning from the world by staying in Unit 01 when he may have been the only one capable of stopping 3rd Impact.

So if he was simply the initiating force, how do we explain the general hostility directed at him? Let's be real for a minute: most of the general populous jumps to extreme opinions on individuals that directly affect their lives but they have no interaction with. If we met every politician/military person/public figure that we find reprehensible, chances are that the more mindful among us would be able to at the least understand their motivations more, if not be more forgiving of their negligible actions.

As demonstrated in the grocery store scene in the first movie, the general population is not aware of the pilots' identities. When you have a giant robot causing destruction and casualties, people are going to complain, and the added effect of the anonymity makes it even easier to bash them/make them an outlet for all of your frustration because what you are angry about is generally considered among the populace to be negative.

So near-third impact happens. A bunch of people are dead from the Angel attack, and also many are dead from the ground splitting/general fallout. "What was that thing in the sky?" It seeps into the public consciousness that the Evangelion was responsible for the event.

Now fast forward to Wille's crew, made up of civilians. Hell, we actually don't see any grunt workers getting mad at Shinji, all we see is the flight crew, persons who are made familiar with the situation over the 14 year time span, but started out probably in the same mindset as the other civilians.

So what is their perception of Shinji when he walks in? Let's take Midori, who seems to have the most visibly hateful reaction to his entrance. She seems pretty young, as well as temperamental. Over the 14 years she's no doubt learned that all of the mass extinction/FoI/giant Lilith stuff started on that day when Shinji awakened the Eva. Likewise, because of her age and never having known Shinji, he is just some infamous guy in the past to her, and its easy to make a monster out of him. I picture Nerv/Wille personnel who heard how Shinji kept going despite having been told to stop saying over beers "Man if that kid had just not fucking started 3rd impact, none of this would have happened." Shinji is the catalyst. When 14 year olds ask their parents "How did all of this start?" their parents say "Well one of the pilots of this giant robot ended up destroying a bunch of the city, and then he wouldn't come out when he was the only person that could stop what happened next!"

That's the other thing. This is pure speculation, but I'm assuming they attempted to get Shinji out of Unit 01 but as often happens, the signal was blocked from the inside. A lot of people at Nerv (especially Asuka) might read that as him choosing to stay inside. So now people are even madder because he's not helping when he has the only working Eva besides Mark 06, is not facing up to his actions, and essentially hibernating while the rest of the world works to reverse what he started!

This is why I have been pretty put off by the sentiment that all the people who get mad at Shinji are assholes. We have to take into consideration their experiences as well, whether they be unreasonable or skewed. Also, living in a world of pain and fighting every day while the person who started it sleeps oblivious to what's happening around him is definitely going to leave you embittered towards "some stupid shit kid." Especially Misato and Asuka. Misato put him in that position, encouraged it, then had to live with what he started. She feels responsible for putting him there, for the events, and for all the shit that happens to Shinji too. She's hurting him, and hurting from hurting him. Likewise, Asuka comes out of a coma to find out "Hey that guy you like? He kickstarted the apocalypse, and we can't get him out of his Eva." I can imagine her listening to people shit talking Shinji, and getting madder and madder, but still caring. He and Misato are the only people she ever attempted to relate to. She's going to blame him for sure, but she's also going to empathize with him, which is just going to make her more upset. She wants him to do something. As mad as she got at the end of 3.0 for staying in the pod, you know she was seething every time the thought crossed her mind that he might be intentionally staying Unit 01.

So in conclusion, even if Shinji began the process, and everything we see in 3.0 is an unintentional result, it still makes sense in terms of how he is treated. In the mind of the people, Shinji started it and then opted out of the consequences.

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Postby Chuckman » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:00 pm

View Original Postthegoodson wrote:Likewise, Asuka comes out of a coma to find out "Hey that guy you like? He kickstarted the apocalypse, and we can't get him out of his Eva."


She has an additional reason to resent him.

"He started the apocalypse for the other girl, but he was too worried about getting his hands dirty to do jack shit for you".
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Postby thegoodson » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:08 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:She has an additional reason to resent him.

"He started the apocalypse for the other girl, but he was too worried about getting his hands dirty to do jack shit for you".


Yeah, then he ran off with her as soon as she showed up. Pups is gonna be in the dog house for a while, maybe permanently

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Postby AlphaGamma » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:17 pm

View Original Postthegoodson wrote:That's the other thing. This is pure speculation, but I'm assuming they attempted to get Shinji out of Unit 01 but as often happens, the signal was blocked from the inside. A lot of people at Nerv (especially Asuka) might read that as him choosing to stay inside. So now people are even madder because he's not helping when he has the only working Eva besides Mark 06, is not facing up to his actions, and essentially hibernating while the rest of the world works to reverse what he started!

This is why I have been pretty put off by the sentiment that all the people who get mad at Shinji are assholes. We have to take into consideration their experiences as well, whether they be unreasonable or skewed. Also, living in a world of pain and fighting every day while the person who started it sleeps oblivious to what's happening around him is definitely going to leave you embittered towards "some stupid shit kid." Especially Misato and Asuka. Misato put him in that position, encouraged it, then had to live with what he started. She feels responsible for putting him there, for the events, and for all the shit that happens to Shinji too. She's hurting him, and hurting from hurting him. Likewise, Asuka comes out of a coma to find out "Hey that guy you like? He kickstarted the apocalypse, and we can't get him out of his Eva." I can imagine her listening to people shit talking Shinji, and getting madder and madder, but still caring. He and Misato are the only people she ever attempted to relate to. She's going to blame him for sure, but she's also going to empathize with him, which is just going to make her more upset. She wants him to do something. As mad as she got at the end of 3.0 for staying in the pod, you know she was seething every time the thought crossed her mind that he might be intentionally staying Unit 01.

She has an additional reason to resent him.

"He started the apocalypse for the other girl, but he was too worried about getting his hands dirty to do jack shit for you".

I don't know about Asuka liking him tbh... All she showed was that she cared about him in 2.0. Do we want to say that a guy can consider a girl a friend, but as soon as a girl does something for a boy, that's because she "likes" him? Unless ofc i'm misunderstanding what you meant by "like"...
I certainly don't like the idea that part of the reason why Asuka is annoyed at Shinji is because of jealousy. It doesn't seem likely to me.

As for Shinji not helping, i'm pretty sure they weren't going to let him pilot even if he came back sooner. That's probably not why they are "angry" at him. Maybe Asuka (cause she's a bit unreasonable) but certainly not the rest of Wile.
Just like he APPARENTLY lost his memories of how Yui became trapped in Unit 01.

I think it's implied in the rebuild that they brainwashed Shinji or something like that.
ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:But everyone apparently blames Shinji for that. Kaworu even says that he was the cause. But if he was, then why wasn't he executed on sight by Wille? Why would Sakura be so amiable towards him?

Lol, so Wile either treat Shinji too harshly or too kindly? I think the answer is quite simple tbh. They know he triggered the impact but they also know he didn't do it on purpose. They have no sympathy left for him , they can't afford to have it, but they certainly don't plan on killing him, because they aren't completely inhuman yet. I actually think the way they treated Shinji was fine, i saw nothing wrong with it.

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Postby ElMariachi » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:01 pm

View Original PostAlphaGamma wrote:I don't know about Asuka liking him tbh... All she showed was that she cared about him in 2.0. Do we want to say that a guy can consider a girl a friend, but as soon as a girl does something for a boy, that's because she "likes" him? Unless ofc i'm misunderstanding what you meant by "like"...
I certainly don't like the idea that part of the reason why Asuka is annoyed at Shinji is because of jealousy. It doesn't seem likely to me.

There is the whole cooking war with Rei that pretty heavily hinted that Asuka was attracted to Shinji after the Sahaquiel fight proved that he wasn't just a pilot thanks to his father, but actually has courage and worth.

As for resenting Shinji for going as far as 3I to save Rei while he didn't dared to move a finger for her, I think that deep down it's something Asuka could feel, of course she wouldn't acknowledge it and consider it as childish feelings, but couldn't stop feeling a lit bit jealous and betrayed.
Which is tragic, since I'm sure that what happened to Asuka is the very reason Shinji has gone that far to save Rei : after the Bardiel fiasco, Shinji resigned piloting and was leaving the city, burning every ties he had with everyone(he didn't asked for Rei and Asuka, didn't took his NERV mobile phone to hear the messages from Toji and Kensuke and stay in contact with them and rejected Misato), effectively closing his heart to everyone and running away from the pain. But in the end it didn't changed to fact that Rei had to fight the Angels, and payed the price for that when Zeruel ate her. Shinji probably reached an epiphany at the same he witnessed Rei being absorbed : that running away and closing himself is not the solution, that people he cares about still get hurt and had to leave the consequences of him running away. He probably felt that if he had stayed, he could have helped during the fight and Rei wouldn't had to pay the consequences.

That's why he got back in EVA-01 and fought with everything he had, to repair his mistakes, so that what happened to Asuka never happens again.

And I'm sure that had Asuka's and Rei's roles been reversed, Shinji wold have acted the same : he would have refused to fight by fear of hurting Rei and later would have fought to the death and beyond to save Asuka.



I think it's implied in the rebuild that they brainwashed Shinji or something like that.

It's outright stated by Fuyutsuki in 3.0 that Shinji's memories of Yui's contact experiment where erased.
And 1.0 showed us that Fuyu and Gendo didn't had any qualm in using brainwashing again on him to forces him to pilot. Poor boy was backed in a corner from the start...
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Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

Excess_Velocity
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Postby Excess_Velocity » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:40 pm

The funny thing is, people in 3 seem to have totally forgotten that Shinji's actions at the end of Eva 2.22 were the LESSER of two evils.

Everyone seems to conveinantly forget that if Unit-01 never awakened, they still had THIS asshole to deal with:

SPOILER: Show
Image


Without Unit 01, EVERY single Eva had at this point bee totally thrashed. 00 and 02 both get completely stomped into the dirt by what is basically the Samuel Jackson of the Angel Pantheon, who shrugs off N2 missiles and progressive SPEARS THRUST DOWNWARD BY A MULTI-THOUSAND TON EVA like they aren't shit, was just getting ready to stroll right up into Terminal Dogma and start its own Third Impact, and Albino Space Jesus would have been in no position to stop it. Zeruel, combined with Rei AND Lilith, would start it's own impact, and it would be Hasta La Vista, humanity.

Unit-01 awakening into it's 'God Mode' state was literally the ONLY thing that could have stopped Zeruel, who up to that point hadn't even been scathed by anything Nerv could throw at it.

Exactly WHAT was Shinji expected to do?[/img]

Charsi
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Postby Charsi » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:47 pm

Well Shinji wasn't to know, but if he hadn't shown up that Lance of Cassius might have ended up impaling Zeruel instead.

Pure conjecture, mind you. There's no real way to explain why Mark.06 might be launched with the spear, other than to stop what was otherwise unstoppable.

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Postby Excess_Velocity » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:56 pm

View Original PostCharsi wrote:Well Shinji wasn't to know, but if he hadn't shown up that Lance of Cassius might have ended up impaling Zeruel instead.



I get the distinctive feeling Kaworu would have been too little too late at that point. Zeruel had ZERO obstacles between it and Lilith once it had defeated Unit-01. If Unit-01 didn't wake back up, Zeruel would of taken the elevator all the way down to Lilith, and become, like, Giant Naked Zeruel or something, and general bad shit would of went down anyways.


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