CI and the Third impact again.

[Shinoyami65]

Could be easily refuted. CI states that angels tried to recover Adam, so why they may look for the embryo. But if it would be a target for an impact, Ramiel would bore to the embryo instead of Lilith, and Seele would keep it in the fortress-city (Kaji smuggled it there).

Possibly it was being kept in another fortress-city or under heavy guard somewhere else. Ramiel may have been one of the Angels seeking Lilith, hence why it chose to bore to her instead of seeking Adam.

"I didn't expect it [Unit 01] to use such a manner to take that in. That incident was very different from our scenario." [ep. 20]

"We have no intention of creating a new god. A living god created by us. It's blasphemy." [ep. 21]

"We expect you to carry out the project using a duplicate of Lillith, Eva Unit 01. That's different from Seele's scenario." [EoE, ep. 25]

They used Unit 01 just because it was easily reachable and already advanced to a messiah (a messiah created from Lilith will decay and there would be no blasphemy). In the CI (but not in the show) the use of Unit 01 equipped with S2 was planned from the beginning.

It's possible they planned to give her an S^2 in their own way; possibly in the same way as the MP Evas. They did not intend for her to go beserk and gain one so early, before the last Angels were defeated. Possibly what they are referring to is not Eva-01 gaining an S^2 Engine, but the fact that she went beserk and stole one of her own volition.

It is also possible that SEELE intended to use Lilith to start Instrumentality, and then have her place their souls into the S^2-equipped Eva-01. Thus they would use both Lilith and Eva-01 in their scenario.

I'm trying to show that the egg but not Unit 01 was the destination of the souls and Unit 01 was just a medium which forms the tree of life, needed to obtain God's creative power [which actually the technologies of FAR]. Here CI contradicts to the show.

This cannot be proven or disproven; ultimately SEELE may have wanted Eva-01 to be the destination of all souls, but when this became impossible due to Lilith's intervention they were just satisfied with humanity returning to nothing. I also don't see how SEELE turning into LCL and getting stored in the egg with everyone else constitutes them achieving the FAR's technology; in fact very little FAR tech besides the Black Moon, the White Moon and the Spear of Longinus is shown in the series.

Here we go again. They're talking that they plan to complement souls of all the humanity using Shinji's wish to run away from the society which hurts him, and they are speaking "All is going as planned" just before they themselves are decomposed to LCL [EoE, ep 26 near the 22-th min.].

Keel says "The beginning and the end are the same. Yes, all is right with the world". He doesn't say it went exactly as SEELE planned.

As it was said earlier, it's not possible to prove or disprove this if you don't know the mechanism of the impact, so you may even not try without it. Nothing prevents to think that they just wished to eat Lilith to destroy the source of Lilith-based life, and Misato's statement along with the hint for the mechanism of the impact suggest that this is true.

Still, they must have had a reason to protect Lilith so strongly, and Misato is not in a position to know about the mechanics of an Impact during Episode 22. Furthermore, Misato's line is "Second Impact wasn't caused by contact with an Angel". While this tells the audience that Second Impact itself wasn't caused by an Angel, it doesn't tell us that this is true for all Angels. On another note, Kaworu makes it clear that his goal was to reach Adam, and states: "Must all who are born of Adam return to Adam?" so it is clear that reuniting with Adam was the goal of some Angels.

"The S2 engine and the explosive system are being linked! We can't stop it!" [UN video, ep. 21]

After re-watching the scene with the Platinum Edition subtitles, I can't find any trace of the dialogue you describe. Perhaps you are using a faulty translation or one in a language other than English?

The event chain is the following: a test subject merges with Adam -> the link is activated by a DNA-marker [hint is Ritsuko's reference to DNA in the ep.5, and several forms of helical biotechnology (the lance and S2)] -> 2I occurs (this is anti AT-field event, so the explosive system emits anti AT-field).

I still don't know what you mean by a "DNA marker" but this is a sketchy scenario at best, particularly as I still can't find any evidence of a "explosive system" in the episodes. Also, when Gendo (a human) merges with the Adam embryo, nothing happens. So just having Adam and a human isn't enough. Additionally, what Ritsuko states in ep.5 is that the DNA of Angels is 99.89% similar to humans- in that case, wouldn't an Angel's DNA also cause an Impact if inserted into Adam?

Ritsuko, in the ep. 5 may be such a mention. This is the most reasonable mechanism. An impact from a contact of Adam with an angel looks absurd because it would harm the ecosystem. You may not believe it, but Misato's words in the ep. 22 is a hint that this mechanism is true.

If the objective of the Angels was to get rid of all Lilith-based life, of course if would harm the ecosystem. In fact, the ecosystem looks pretty much destroyed after 3I in EoE, with just the desolate white beach and red sea, with no evidence of plants, animals or normal blue water. And finally, as I stated earlier Misato is not in a position to fully understand the mechanism of an Impact in ep.22; additionally, she was only referring to 2I in her statement. I also don't see how Ritsuko's statement about DNA leads to this being "the most reasonable mechanism", patricularly as she was only talking about Shamshel at the time. Just because DNA is mentioned in two episodes does not mean there is an irrevocable link between the two mentions. Just because Misato often talks about beer does not mean that beer is the secret cause of everything in the series.

But there are also several contradictions. And it's reasonable to conclude that they are because CI follows the in-game logic which is not completely reconciles with the show, as it was shown earlier.

At the same time, it is also the result of extensive interviews with Anno- thus it reflects his opinion of what went on and will be considered his final word until something more direct- such as a direct and complete statement from Anno- comes along. Additionally, the CI is where concepts such as the FAR first came to light, thus by denying it you also risk denying those theories as well.

[gchristnsn]

Possibly it was being kept in another fortress-city or under heavy guard somewhere else. Ramiel may have been one of the Angels seeking Lilith, hence why it chose to bore to her instead of seeking Adam.

There are none and it's not reasonable to build a yet another one. Tokyo-3 consumes "all the resources of humanity".

It's possible they planned to give her an S^2 in their own way; possibly in the same way as the MP Evas. They did not intend for her to go beserk and gain one so early, before the last Angels were defeated. Possibly what they are referring to is not Eva-01 gaining an S^2 Engine, but the fact that she went beserk and stole one of her own volition.

It is also possible that SEELE intended to use Lilith to start Instrumentality, and then have her place their souls into the S^2-equipped Eva-01. Thus they would use both Lilith and Eva-01 in their scenario.

They planned to get a being with the both fruits (a messiah) to use God's creative power for the complementation. The difference between GNR and Unit 01 in that the former decays and there is no blasphemy. Because of the quotes you can not counter that use of Unit 01 wasn't the part of the original plan, this is a contradiction with CI.

This cannot be proven or disproven; ultimately SEELE may have wanted Eva-01 to be the destination of all souls, but when this became impossible due to Lilith's intervention they were just satisfied with humanity returning to nothing. I also don't see how SEELE turning into LCL and getting stored in the egg with everyone else constitutes them achieving the FAR's technology; in fact very little FAR tech besides the Black Moon, the White Moon and the Spear of Longinus is shown in the series.

It can be proven. You saw the souls entering and exiting the egg, and there were no traces of Seele in Unit 01 (only Yui was there, she complained about the solitude). Thus, you can not counter the difference of target of the souls in CI and the show, so you should admit that CI contradicts the show at a yet another point and we should stop the discussion here.

Keel says "The beginning and the end are the same. Yes, all is right with the world". He doesn't say it went exactly as SEELE planned.

Oh, God, here we go again. A quote again: "By using the incomplete soul of Evangelion Unit 01's pilot... we'll complement the souls of humanity." I probably cite it for the fourth time.

Still, they must have had a reason to protect Lilith so strongly, and Misato is not in a position to know about the mechanics of an Impact during Episode 22. Furthermore, Misato's line is "Second Impact wasn't caused by contact with an Angel". While this tells the audience that Second Impact itself wasn't caused by an Angel, it doesn't tell us that this is true for all Angels. On another note, Kaworu makes it clear that his goal was to reach Adam, and states: "Must all who are born of Adam return to Adam?" so it is clear that reuniting with Adam was the goal of some Angels.

Yes, they had a reason, they can not to conduct a charitable complementation without it and need to exterminate angels before it. Although Misato's statement isn't enough to prove that Angels can not initiate the impact, this is a hint which points to its mechanism. Because you also have no arguments to prove that angel can produce an impact, and can't give your version of the mechanism supported by facts, you can not complain on this topic.

After re-watching the scene with the Platinum Edition subtitles, I can't find any trace of the dialogue you describe. Perhaps you are using a faulty translation or one in a language other than English?

I use a "Reneval" version, the exact time of the phrase is 01:21. Probably you're using subtitles which translate only one dialogue (there are several sets of dialogues which overlap).

I still don't know what you mean by a "DNA marker" but this is a sketchy scenario at best, particularly as I still can't find any evidence of a "explosive system" in the episodes. Also, when Gendo (a human) merges with the Adam embryo, nothing happens. So just having Adam and a human isn't enough.

As it requires by Kabbalah, the creation of a messiah is possible when the chamber of Guf is empty (it was empty at least since the ep. 23).

Additionally, what Ritsuko states in ep.5 is that the DNA of Angels is 99.89% similar to humans- in that case, wouldn't an Angel's DNA also cause an Impact if inserted into Adam?

O, Madonna! No, because it's stupid and may accidentally ruin the ecosystem of a planet inhabited only by angels.

If the objective of the Angels was to get rid of all Lilith-based life, of course if would harm the ecosystem. In fact, the ecosystem looks pretty much destroyed after 3I in EoE, with just the desolate white beach and red sea, with no evidence of plants, animals or normal blue water. And finally, as I stated earlier Misato is not in a position to fully understand the mechanism of an Impact in ep.22; additionally, she was only referring to 2I in her statement. I also don't see how Ritsuko's statement about DNA leads to this being "the most reasonable mechanism", patricularly as she was only talking about Shamshel at the time. Just because DNA is mentioned in two episodes does not mean there is an irrevocable link between the two mentions. Just because Misato often talks about beer does not mean that beer is the secret cause of everything in the series.

But there also nothing which prevents to think that the mechanism which regards DNA of the confronting species is true, it's good from the point of engineering as opposed to the mechanism which regards contact of Adam with an angel.

At the same time, it is also the result of extensive interviews with Anno- thus it reflects his opinion of what went on and will be considered his final word until something more direct- such as a direct and complete statement from Anno- comes along. Additionally, the CI is where concepts such as the FAR first came to light, thus by denying it you also risk denying those theories as well.

Note, that I'm not denying CI completely. I just saying that there at least two contradictions with the show (the use of 01 and the target of the complementation) and ambiguity which concerns the impact from angels. And the intention of the note placed on the CI page at the wiki is to raise your attention on this matter.

[Shinoyami65]

There are none and it's not reasonable to build a yet another one. Tokyo-3 consumes "all the resources of humanity".

A Tokyo-2 is mentioned. It doesn't have to be a fortress city, just somewhere isolated and well defended, such as one of the several international Nerv installations (Europe, America, etc.) that we hear of. It may actually have been at Nerv Europe, since Kaji is smuggling it from there.

They planned to get a being with the both fruits (a messiah) to use God's creative power for the complementation. The difference between GNR and Unit 01 in that the former decays and there is no blasphemy. Because of the quotes you can not counter that use of Unit 01 wasn't the part of the original plan, this is a contradiction with CI.

Note that she only decays after Shinji rejects Instrumentality; possibly in SEELE's scenario it would not have been rejected and Lilith would never have decayed.

It can be proven. You saw the souls entering and exiting the egg, and there were no traces of Seele in Unit 01 (only Yui was there, she complained about the solitude).

Remember that Shinji was given ultimate control of Instrumentality and chose to reject it; possibly by doing so he prevented SEELE's souls from entering Eva-01. You seem to assume that SEELE got what they wanted; while they may have believed they were going to fulfil their scenario, Shinji may have thwarted their schemes.

Oh, God, here we go again. A quote again: "By using the incomplete soul of Evangelion Unit 01's pilot... we'll complement the souls of humanity." I probably cite it for the fourth time.

Still doesn't amount to them getting what they wanted at the very end of it all. The definintion of complementation is also shaky.

Yes, they had a reason, they can not to conduct a charitable complementation without it and need to exterminate angels before it. Although Misato's statement isn't enough to prove that Angels can not initiate the impact, this is a hint which points to its mechanism. Because you also have no arguments to prove that angel can produce an impact, and can't give your version of the mechanism supported by facts, you can not complain on this topic.

By that same logic you can't complain about my version. Additionally, I do have several facts and arguments to support my theory, including that Gaghiel actively goes after Adam. I can even put it into a modified version of your scenario, substituting human DNA with Angel DNA to create the same result. You cannot prove that human genes would cause an Impact, as we don't know the exact circumstances which led to 2I, other than genes from a donor were used. It's never explicitly said how the genes contribute to Impact, and it cannot be denied conclusively that Angelic genes wouldn't have the same effect. Misato's statement may not be such a concrete hint- remember that at this point she has not learnt the truth of 2I yet, so she is just theorising in the same way the audience is. The Evas are also not conventional Angels and their DNA is never inserted into Adam or Lilith, so we cannot prove that contact with an Angel or Eva under certain circumstances wouldn't start 3I.

I use a "Reneval" version, the exact time of the phrase is 01:21. Probably you're using subtitles which translate only one dialogue (there are several sets of dialogues which overlap).

The Platinum Edition subtitles do translate the dialogue that interlaps Platinum Edition is pretty much the same as Renewal). Still no sign of your quote.

As it requires by Kabbalah, a creation of the messiah is possible when the chamber of Guf is empty (it was empty at least since the ep. 23).

I don't recall that being stated in the show. In NGE the Chamber of Guf is a container of souls- what does that have to do with the possibility of an Impact and DNA?

O, Madonna! No, because it's stupid and may accidentally ruin the ecosystem of a planet inhabited only by angels.

Angels are not humans- they don't necessarily need food, oxygen or any form of ecosystem. For example, Sandalphon is found in a volcano, Gaghiel is aquatic, Arael and Sahaquiel are found in space, etc. So even if the Earth was flooded, filled with magma, or lost all its atmosphere, the Angels would survive. An Angel-based Impact might even convert all existing excosystems to Angel-based ecosystems suited for their unique biology. They wouldn't care about ruining a Lilim-based ecosystem.

But there also nothing which prevents to think that the mechanism which regards DNA of the confronting species is true, it's good from the point of engineering as opposed to the mechanism which regards contact of Adam with an angel.

But since Angel and human DNA is so similar (Angels are also considered human in NGE's expanded definition of the term) then you can't deny of Angel DNA also acting in the same way as human DNA in your scenario.

Note, that I'm not denying CI completely. I just saying that there at least two contradictions with the show (the use of 01 and the target of the complementation) and ambiguity which concerns the impact from angels. And the intention of the note placed on the CI page at the wiki is intended to raise your attention on this matter.

[Shinoyami65]

There are none and it's not reasonable to build a yet another one. Tokyo-3 consumes "all the resources of humanity".

A Tokyo-2 is mentioned. It doesn't have to be a fortress city, just somewhere isolated and well defended, such as one of the several international Nerv installations (Europe, America, etc.) that we hear of. It may actually have been at Nerv Europe, since Kaji is smuggling it from there.

They planned to get a being with the both fruits (a messiah) to use God's creative power for the complementation. The difference between GNR and Unit 01 in that the former decays and there is no blasphemy. Because of the quotes you can not counter that use of Unit 01 wasn't the part of the original plan, this is a contradiction with CI.

Note that she only decays after Shinji rejects Instrumentality; possibly in SEELE's scenario it would not have been rejected in this manner and Lilith would never have decayed.

It can be proven. You saw the souls entering and exiting the egg, and there were no traces of Seele in Unit 01 (only Yui was there, she complained about the solitude).

Remember that Shinji was given ultimate control of Instrumentality and chose to reject it; possibly by doing so he prevented SEELE's souls from entering Eva-01. You seem to assume that SEELE got what they wanted; while they may have believed they were going to fulfil their scenario, Shinji may have thwarted their schemes. If SEELE had won, possibly we would have seen some indication of it, but it seems they ultimately lost at the very end.

Oh, God, here we go again. A quote again: "By using the incomplete soul of Evangelion Unit 01's pilot... we'll complement the souls of humanity." I probably cite it for the fourth time.

Still doesn't amount to them getting what they wanted at the very end of it all. The definintion of complementation is also shaky.

Yes, they had a reason, they can not to conduct a charitable complementation without it and need to exterminate angels before it. Although Misato's statement isn't enough to prove that Angels can not initiate the impact, this is a hint which points to its mechanism. Because you also have no arguments to prove that angel can produce an impact, and can't give your version of the mechanism supported by facts, you can not complain on this topic.

By that same logic you can't complain about my version. Additionally, I do have several facts and arguments to support my theory, including that Gaghiel actively goes after Adam. I can even put it into a modified version of your scenario, substituting human DNA with Angel DNA to create the same result. You cannot prove that human genes would cause an Impact, as we don't know the exact circumstances which led to 2I, other than genes from a donor were used. It's never explicitly said how the genes contribute to Impact, and it cannot be denied conclusively that Angelic genes wouldn't have the same effect. Misato's statement may not be such a concrete hint- remember that at this point she has not learnt the truth of 2I yet, so she is just theorising in the same way the audience is. The Evas are also not conventional Angels and their DNA is never inserted into Adam or Lilith, so we cannot prove that contact with an Angel or Eva under certain circumstances wouldn't start 3I.

I use a "Reneval" version, the exact time of the phrase is 01:21. Probably you're using subtitles which translate only one dialogue (there are several sets of dialogues which overlap).

The Platinum Edition subtitles do translate the dialogue that interlaps Platinum Edition is pretty much the same as Renewal). Still no sign of your quote.

As it requires by Kabbalah, a creation of the messiah is possible when the chamber of Guf is empty (it was empty at least since the ep. 23).

I don't recall that being stated in the show. In NGE the Chamber of Guf is a container of souls- what does that have to do with the possibility of an Impact and DNA?

O, Madonna! No, because it's stupid and may accidentally ruin the ecosystem of a planet inhabited only by angels.

Angels are not humans- they don't necessarily need food, oxygen or any form of ecosystem. For example, Sandalphon is found in a volcano, Gaghiel is aquatic, Arael and Sahaquiel are found in space, etc. So even if the Earth was flooded, filled with magma, or lost all its atmosphere, the Angels would survive. An Angel-based Impact might even convert all existing excosystems to Angel-based ecosystems suited for their unique biology. They wouldn't care about ruining a Lilim-based ecosystem.

But there also nothing which prevents to think that the mechanism which regards DNA of the confronting species is true, it's good from the point of engineering as opposed to the mechanism which regards contact of Adam with an angel.

But since Angel and human DNA is so similar (Angels are also considered human in NGE's expanded definition of the term) then you can't deny of Angel DNA also acting in the same way as human DNA in your scenario.

Note, that I'm not denying CI completely. I just saying that there at least two contradictions with the show (the use of 01 and the target of the complementation) and ambiguity which concerns the impact from angels. And the intention of the note placed on the CI page at the wiki is intended to raise your attention on this matter.

[Monk Ed]

There's... There's just so much juicy stuff to respond to! But I'm about to go to bed so all I have time and attention for is a couple of quick things:

Firstly, there's no evidence in the show nor the CI that the Angels could actually do anything with Adam. The CI says that some were seeking Lilith to "reset all life", that some were seeking to recover their progenitor Adam, and that some had nothing particular in mind; note the lack of any mention of exactly what they'd do with Adam if they found her, and especially the fact that Adam was not included alongside Lilith as being sought for the purpose of resetting all life. And in the show, although Kaji said that the Angels touching Adam would cause Third Impact, it turned out he was working on bad information because "Adam" was actually Lilith, so why not his information that Angels + Adam = Impact be bad as well?

This suffices to resolve whatever potential contradiction you two are arguing over on this point.

And, secondly, it has been noted in previous threads on the subject that GNR's neck burst before Shinji rejected Instrumentality.

...

By the way, guys, your omnislashes are very difficult to read. Notice how, rather than quoting anyone for my responses, I phrased my responses in such a way as to make it clear what points I was addressing without cluttering up my post with tons of quotes of things a given reader has either already read or wouldn't understand out-of-context like that anyway?

[Shinoyami65]

By the way, guys, your omnislashes are very difficult to read. Notice how, rather than quoting anyone for my responses, I phrased my responses in such a way as to make it clear what points I was addressing without cluttering up my post with tons of quotes of things a given reader has either already read or wouldn't understand out-of-context like that anyway?

My first post was neatly numbered, in bold. This format was abandoned when it became more of an argument solely between the two of us, without any input from others. I apologise.

[gchristnsn]

A Tokyo-2 is mentioned. It doesn't have to be a fortress city, just somewhere isolated and well defended, such as one of the several international Nerv installations (Europe, America, etc.) that we hear of. It may actually have been at Nerv Europe, since Kaji is smuggling it from there.

World's limited resources after the 2I and the mention of that Tokyo-3 uses the most of the resources of the world is enough to conclude that a yet another such city is not reasonable.

Note that she only decays after Shinji rejects Instrumentality; possibly in SEELE's scenario it would not have been rejected in this manner and Lilith would never have decayed.

Yes, Seele do not want to reject the complementation, but you have no facts to confirm that GNR would not decay. There is an allusion for her short lifetime: the butterfly wings.

Remember that Shinji was given ultimate control of Instrumentality and chose to reject it; possibly by doing so he prevented SEELE's souls from entering Eva-01. You seem to assume that SEELE got what they wanted; while they may have believed they were going to fulfil their scenario, Shinji may have thwarted their schemes. If SEELE had won, possibly we would have seen some indication of it, but it seems they ultimately lost at the very end.

As it was said earlier, the use of 01 wasn't originally planned and they considered this a blasphemy (which means that hey are very religious and strictly follow the scrolls). You can not deny this. This means that Seele's plan does not regard Unit 01.

Still doesn't amount to them getting what they wanted at the very end of it all. The definintion of complementation is also shaky.

This is enough to point to a contradiction (in CI Seele's plan includes only themselves).

By that same logic you can't complain about my version. Additionally, I do have several facts and arguments to support my theory, including that Gaghiel actively goes after Adam. I can even put it into a modified version of your scenario, substituting human DNA with Angel DNA to create the same result. You cannot prove that human genes would cause an Impact, as we don't know the exact circumstances which led to 2I, other than genes from a donor were used. It's never explicitly said how the genes contribute to Impact, and it cannot be denied conclusively that Angelic genes wouldn't have the same effect. Misato's statement may not be such a concrete hint- remember that at this point she has not learnt the truth of 2I yet, so she is just theorising in the same way the audience is. The Evas are also not conventional Angels and their DNA is never inserted into Adam or Lilith, so we cannot prove that contact with an Angel or Eva under certain circumstances wouldn't start 3I.

As it was said earlier there is a serious indication that my version of the mechanism is true. If the mechanism is the same regardless of the circumstances, they would never put Unit 01 into the fight, because it may easily generate an impact from a contact with an angel.

The Platinum Edition subtitles do translate the dialogue that interlaps Platinum Edition is pretty much the same as Renewal). Still no sign of your quote.

It will not popup out of nowhere if it wasn't translated.

I don't recall that being stated in the show. In NGE the Chamber of Guf is a container of souls- what does that have to do with the possibility of an Impact and DNA?

Ritsuko says this in the ep. 23 near the vessel with the clones. All souls should be available to restore Adam Kadmon, so the chamber should be empty.

Angels are not humans- they don't necessarily need food, oxygen or any form of ecosystem. For example, Sandalphon is found in a volcano, Gaghiel is aquatic, Arael and Sahaquiel are found in space, etc. So even if the Earth was flooded, filled with magma, or lost all its atmosphere, the Angels would survive. An Angel-based Impact might even convert all existing excosystems to Angel-based ecosystems suited for their unique biology. They wouldn't care about ruining a Lilim-based ecosystem.

OK, if an accidental impact from a contact of Adam with an angel looks not enough stupid for you, the impact may harm Adam itself (CI states that its body was torn apart).

But since Angel and human DNA is so similar (Angels are also considered human in NGE's expanded definition of the term) then you can't deny of Angel DNA also acting in the same way as human DNA in your scenario.

Yes, I can't deny that. But it would be stupid to put Unit 01 into the fight in this case, keep Adam out of the fortress city, and Ramiel would bore to it if Angels want to produce an impact.

You see, we're rounding circles because you don't want to admit that Unit 01 wasn't the part of Seele's original plan (but it's directly stated by Seele at least for three times), and that the target was the egg (you have no facts to confirm the opposite, but I have facts to confirm this). As it is not sad, I consider the further discussion with you pointless.

[Shinoyami65]

You see, we rounding circles because you're don't want to admit that Unit 01 wasn't the part of Seele's original plan (but it's directly stated by Seele at least for three times), and that the target was the egg (you have no facts to confirm the opposite, but I have facts to confirm this). As it is not sad, I consider the further discussion with you pointless.

Alright, I'll admit that Unit 01 wasn't part of the original plan. But still, that's only one contradiction. I would like to hear more of your theories on why the egg itself is a target though.

I suppose in the end one has to turn to the Tiers of Canonicity as I originally stated. The CI is said to be at Tier 2 or Tier 3; thus it can contain contradictions and is ranked below the original show in terms of canonicity.

[gchristnsn]

I would like to hear more of your theories on why the egg itself is a target though.

I'll quote myself, sorry:

"You saw the souls entering and exiting the egg, and there were no traces of Seele in Unit 01 (only Yui was there, she complained about the solitude)."

These are facts from show.

Your answer:

"...ultimately SEELE may have wanted Eva-01 to be the destination of all souls but when this became impossible due to Lilith's intervention they were just satisfied with humanity returning to nothing."

Not a fact. Moreover, Unit 01 wasn't the part of Seele's original plan, and could not be because they're very religious.

"I also don't see how SEELE turning into LCL and getting stored in the egg with everyone else constitutes them achieving the FAR's technology; in fact very little FAR tech besides the Black Moon, the White Moon and the Spear of Longinus is shown in the series."

Yes, this wasn't shown, but it also wasn't shown that they had gone somewhere else, and there were no traces of them in Unit 01, as it was explained earlier. So, there is one possibility left: they're complemented with the rest of humanity.

[Ornette]

"...ultimately SEELE may have wanted Eva-01 to be the destination of all souls but when this became impossible due to Lilith's intervention they were just satisfied with humanity returning to nothing."

Not a fact. Moreover, Unit 01 wasn't the part of Seele's original plan, and could not be because they're very religious.

But Fuyutsuki says in EoE:

SEELE bastards... Do they plan to use EVA-01 as the well of souls!?

The egg of Lilith... the genesis of human life... the Black Moon...
We have no desire to return to that empty shell,
But even that depends on the will of Lilith.

It sure seems like the plan was to use Eva-01, then Lilith intervened.

[gchristnsn]

But Fuyutsuki says in EoE:

SEELE bastards... Do they plan to use EVA-01 as the well of souls!?

In the ep. 26, 02:46 he says that they intend to use it as a medium.

At 02:15 they're saying that they are intend to return people to their true form [a true descendant of Lilith] and this will bring the tranquility of mind [probably because the being would be complete].

It sure seems like the plan was to use Eva-01, then Lilith intervened.

But how can this be? Earlier they said for three times that they are not intended to use 01 originally. Originally they intended to use a being with the both fruits [a result of reunion of Lilith and Adam's embryo] to make the tree of life. But because Lilith was inaccessible they used already advanced being made from Unit 01 as a medium. Lilith intervened, ruined Gendo's plan and performed the complementation by Seele's scenario because Shinji wished the society to vanish.

[Shinoyami65]

I would like to point out that there is no proof which Fruits the Seeds of Life have. Some say the Seeds already have both Fruits; some say each has their own Fruit; some say that both have the Fruit of Life. This is still a matter of debate.

I suppose whether they were going to use it as a medium or a "well of souls" depends on your translation of Fuyutsuki's phrase. My subtitles seem to say "medium" but Ornette's translation renders the sentence so that Eva-01 is now a "well of souls" instead.

[gchristnsn]

I would like to point out that there is no proof which Fruits the Seeds of Life have. Some say the Seeds already have both Fruits; some say each has their own Fruit; some say that both have the Fruit of Life. This is still a matter of debate.

But there is one, as stated by Fuyutsuki during the formation of Tree of Life:

The seed of life the Angel has and the seed of wisdom the human has. Now that Eva Unit 01 has acquired both of them, it is equal to God. And now, it's changing itself to the Tree of Life, the source of all living beings.

[Shinoyami65]

What I mean to say is that there is no proof of whether Seeds of Life (Adam, Lilith) have either the Fruit of Life (the S^2 Engine the Angels possess) or the Fruit of Knowledge (which humans possess). We don't know if they have both Fruits, or if each has only one Fruit. We also don't know if their Fruits are different or the same. Especially since Lilith is considered an Angel, and it is ambiguous whether she had a S^2, a Fruit of Knowledge or both from the start or not.

[gchristnsn]

What I mean to say is that there is no proof of whether Seeds of Life (Adam, Lilith) have either the Fruit of Life (the S^2 Engine the Angels possess) or the Fruit of Knowledge (which humans possess). We don't know if they have both Fruits, or if each has only one Fruit. We also don't know if their Fruits are different or the same. Especially since Lilith is considered an Angel, and it is ambiguous whether she had a S^2, a Fruit of Knowledge or both from the start or not.

Lilith/Unit 01 have no S^2 because she was not equivalent to the "God" [FAR] without it. She may be immortal but not capable to produce a large amount of energy and thus use God's creative power.
Because Unit 01 became equivalent to "God" after it had devoured the core, it obviously should contain the fruit of wisdom. There should be the same situation with the SoLs (their combination creates a being which is able to perform the duty of a messiah and grow itself to the planetary size using God's creative power). The fruits were probably intentionally separated by FAR to not to allow appearance of rivals equivalent to them (a SoL should contain just one fruit, which is inherited genetically). If you have complains, there are nothing which prevents this to be true.

[Ornette]

But how can this be? Earlier they said for three times that they are not intended to use 01 originally. Originally they intended to use a being with the both fruits [a result of reunion of Lilith and Adam's embryo] to make the tree of life. But because Lilith was inaccessible they used already advanced being made from Unit 01 as a medium. Lilith intervened, ruined Gendo's plan and performed the complementation by Seele's scenario because Shinji wished the society to vanish.

Lilith/Unit 01 have no S^2 because she was not equivalent to the "God" [FAR] without it. She may be immortal but not capable to produce a large amount of energy and thus use God's creative power.
Because Unit 01 became equivalent to "God" after it had devoured the core, it obviously should contain the fruit of wisdom. There should be the same situation with the SoLs (their combination creates a being which is able to perform the duty of a messiah and grow itself to the planetary size using God's creative power). The fruits were probably intentionally separated by FAR to not to allow appearance of rivals equivalent to them (a SoL should contain just one fruit, which is inherited genetically). If you have complains, there are nothing which prevents this to be true.

I think those are your interpretations of events that aren't even loosely implied in some cases. Nothing wrong with such an interpretation, per se, but it doesn't exclude all other possible interpretations of the dialog and events. Just like a lot of the old interpretations made by the old-timers here are like, doesn't necessarily mean their's is right and your's is wrong. The amount of logical leaps in order to piece together some of that requires interpreting such dialog and events, and they are not facts, they are an interpretation. The presupposition that specific interactions of an Angel with Lilith or an Angel with Adam's body are to be assumed in order to make these interpretations "true" means you are assuming the premise in order for the logical implication that makes such interpretations as being true. Some people don't make the same assumptions about these things, and thus can't accept the implication.

I'm not against adding the extra caveat in the CI, by the way. I'm all for moving any such deep interpretation to theory and analysis pages where they belong, with as many warnings and caveats and whatever as needed. But you have to understand that there isn't a single ultimate way to interpret all the dialog and events, though there could be many, there's some that are dumb and some that makes more sense but there isn't just one.

[gchristnsn]

I think those are your interpretations of events that aren't even loosely implied in some cases. Nothing wrong with such an interpretation, per se, but it doesn't exclude all other possible interpretations of the dialog and events. Just like a lot of the old interpretations made by the old-timers here are like, doesn't necessarily mean their's is right and your's is wrong. The amount of logical leaps in order to piece together some of that requires interpreting such dialog and events, and they are not facts, they are an interpretation. The presupposition that specific interactions of an Angel with Lilith or an Angel with Adam's body are to be assumed in order to make these interpretations "true" means you are assuming the premise in order for the logical implication that makes such interpretations as being true. Some people don't make the same assumptions about these things, and thus can't accept the implication.

I'm not against adding the extra caveat in the CI, by the way. I'm all for moving any such deep interpretation to theory and analysis pages where they belong, with as many warnings and caveats and whatever as needed. But you have to understand that there isn't a single ultimate way to interpret all the dialog and events, though there could be many, there's some that are dumb and some that makes more sense but there isn't just one.

My intention for the whole discussion is to return the note about that CI is not completely reconciles with the show. I shoved you that use of 01 wasn't the original Seele's plan (if you still don't believe the three quotes given earlier, I have a quote from Misato for you: "The Committee will use the Eva instead of Adam" [EoE, ep. 25, 04:37]), and that the egg was the target (there are enough facts to confirm this, and there are no facts to confirm the opposite). All this makes the phrase "the information appears to reconcile fully with the show" incorrect. It's possible to delete it or explain why CI differs from the show. Which do you think is better? So, do you agree with this and can I return the note?

As of interpretation, the game is to find the simplest non contradictory interpretation. If you are not bound with this restriction, you would never agree with anyone.

[UrsusArctos]

Following this discussion has been a pain thanks to all the omnislashing. Just to point out, the phrasing "the information appears to fully reconcile with the show" does not mean that it does, but it means that it's the best we've got in the absence of anything better. Your interpretations of the show are foggy, and the CI is something that has been argued about for quite a while.

However -

I'm all for moving any such deep interpretation to theory and analysis pages where they belong, with as many warnings and caveats and whatever as needed. But you have to understand that there isn't a single ultimate way to interpret all the dialog and events, though there could be many, there's some that are dumb and some that makes more sense but there isn't just one.

This is definitely a fully viable alternative. Rather than putting a warning about the CI's lack of viability, put up a T&A page critical of the CI. Just leave the old articles on the CI and containing CI information intact- the rest of us want that information to stay.

[gchristnsn]

Following this discussion has been a pain thanks to all the omnislashing. Just to point out, the phrasing "the information appears to fully reconcile with the show" does not mean that it does, but it means that it's the best we've got in the absence of anything better. Your interpretations of the show are foggy, and the CI is something that has been argued about for quite a while.

However -



This is definitely a fully viable alternative. Rather than putting a warning about the CI's lack of viability, put up a T&A page critical of the CI. Just leave the old articles on the CI and containing CI information intact- the rest of us want that information to stay.

OK, but I wish to say as my last word, that my interpretations of the show approach to a simplest non contradictory interpretation, and I also want to remind you about two subtle points (the impact from angels as absolute truth and the goal of Seele to reach divinity only by themselves) which originate from the belief that CI is completely reconciles with he show. There are actually no reasons for these points and this belief is dangerous.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

OK. It's clear that this isn't going to get resolved either in discussion or in this thread. (Also, the omnislashing here is completely appalling). Let's turn these energies to good use. As suggested by Ornette and UrsusArctos above, I'm going to invoke the recently proposed Theory and Analysis Edit War procedures in an effort to turn the obvious energies behind this issue into objectively useful resources on the wiki.

I've created two new Theory and analysis pages (Wiki editors should be able to edit these. Let me know if there are problems)

• Theory and Analysis:How the CI Reconciles with the Show
  
• Theory and Analysis:How the CI does not Reconcile with the Show
  

Note that these are not "For" and "Against" pages. These pages are isolated places to argue their respective points. They are places where the points made in the above threads can find a permanent home for interested readers. I'll be adding links to these pages from the CI page as well.

The theory pages are not to criticise each other, or other theories, or pre-empt criticisms. These pages may only present and justify their own theories.

Each page has a corresponding critique page. So there are in fact four pages in total here (because we have two theories; the CI reconciles, and the CI does not reconcile)

• Theory and Analysis:How the CI Reconciles with the Show/Criticism
  
• Theory and Analysis:How the CI does not Reconcile with the Show/Criticism
  

The criticism pages may only critique information presented on the corresponding theory page. They may not present new theories(That's what the theory pages are for). Likewise, a theory page may not respond to, or offer counterpoints to its critique page. A theory must stand on its own merit.

Anyone can edit any of these pages. But note that, it is the duty of anyone editing a presentation/critique page to support the intended position of that page to the best of their ability. In the event of an edit war on these pages, exclusive page editors will have to be appointed(And I will be very upset).

We've never had to invoke the new rules before, so this will in many ways be a trial run. Instead of omnislashing one another in threads, I'm hopeful that energies shown here can be directed into writing great wiki pages. Just remember that the pages are for the readers, so be sure to write something that they will want to read, enjoy, and be informed by. Happy editing.

The full T&A edit conflict procedure in all its gory detail  SPOILER: Show

Theory Presentation and Critque Pages

1. Firstly, all theories may be presented on the wiki as long as someone is willing to write them up. A theory has its own (advanced level) page in which it is presented, discussed, and potentially links to other theories and interpretations.
   
   
2. However, such theory pages may only present that theory, and briefly mention others. Theory presentation pages may not critique other theories, though they may discuss and link to them, as they would more basic pages. A theory presentation page must only present and support itself.
   
   
3. Theory pages may -- and should -- briefly critique themselves. However, major objections to a theory should be split off into a critique page for that theory. A theory critique page may present objections and criticisms of the original theory, but may not introduce a new theory. Alternatives theories can be briefly linked to.
   
   
4. Importantly, a theory presentation page may not present counterpoints to the critique page. A theory page must only present and support itself. Likewise the critique page for a theory may not present alternative or new theories; A critique page can only present objections to the assumptions and logic of the presentation page.
   
   
5. Finally, Each page must link to the other, so that the pair forms a whole.
   

Presentation and critique pages are two sides of the same coin. Together they present summary of the spectrum of debate in the community on the issue at hand. The individual reader must make up their own mind, or choose to add to that debate in the forums.


The main advantage of this system is that, in the event of an edit-war, the disputing parties can be shunted off to their own pages, left to their own devices, and hopefully their collective directed energies will result in a solid, interesting, and comprehensive presentation of the spectrum of opinion and debate on the issue at hand. But at least these energies are directed at something productive

A formal procedure for resolving such edit wars might be the following(This is a proposal for dealing with disputes):

1. In the event of a dispute on the analysis pages, one proponent and one opponent of a theory are appointed as editors for the theory and critique pages respectively.
   
2. The appointed editors shall have ultimate editorial control of their respective pages for some fixed duration
   
3. It will be the duty of anyone editing their respective presentation/critique page(editor or not) to support the intended position of that page to the best of their ability; subject to the constraints that presentation pages may only support themselves and not gives counterpoints to critiques, and that critiques must not introduce new theories and may only object to the assumptions and logic of the theory itself.
   

Most importantly of all, such disputes should be kept away from more "casual" wiki pages. The only reason for an edit war in "Basic" and "Intermediate" wiki pages should be for standard "editorial" and formatting reasons, and these should be dealt with a standard policy. Theory/interpretation/analysis disputes belong on theory presentation/critique pages and absolutely nowhere else.

The only real grey area should be the presence of disputed theories in intermediate pages. While hard theories should be mentioned and linked to on such pages, these mentions should be rather brief, with all heavy lifting passed off to the main (advanced) theory pages. Intermediate pages may end up taking on some mild viewpoint, but if this is controversial then it should not be the core point of the page topic. Disagreements should be briefly noted on the page with links to the alternative theories.

Note that the above deals with disagreements in interpretation, theory, and analysis. It does not deal with differences in opinion on known topics, e.g. "Shinji/Asuka", vs "Shinji/Rei". Intermediate pages should be able to accommodate any obvious spectrum of opinion without needing an edit war, and any heavy lifting on such subjects should be shifted off to an advanced page in any case.