CI and the Third impact again.

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CI and the Third impact again.

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Postby gchristnsn » Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:22 pm

As you remember, earlier I wrote that the wiki confuses people, and tried to convince you that the contact of an angel with Adam or Lilith could not produce an impact (only a contact of Adam with a human or Lilith can, because only Adam have the anti AT-field explosive system), so angels do not want to reunite with Adam but just want to destroy Lilith. I even proved that (in brief, if the information at the wiki would be true, Ramiel would bore to Adam's embryo located at the South pole to make an impact from a contact with Adam, and any angel could easily produce an impact by contacting Unit 01 made of the half of Lilith).

But there are things worse than that. On the page of the classified information I found the following note:

"the information appears to reconcile fully with the show." (1)

This resulted in the following text at the page about the third impact:

"Seele intend for Instrumentality to only be for their own council members." (2)

Because the phrase about that the angels want to reunite with Adam driven by instincts is still at the page about the third impact, my attempts to convince you were wasted.

But now I want you to think about that "the classified information DOES NOT appear to reconcile fully with the show."

Particularly at the place about the goal of Seele. Can you imagine why? Because CI is mostly correct but follows in-game logic, and the game differs from the show by the presence of multiple different endings. And in the show Seele wished the transformation into the true child of Lilith for all the humanity including themselves (as you remember, they were a religious sect and thought that they are restoring Adam Kadmon from the souls of entire Humanity").

I content myself only with this post and just want you to think on this (of course I also want you to correct phrases (1) and (2) if you agree).
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- Since we can never know anything for sure, it is simply not worth searching for certainty; but it is well worth searching for truth; and we do this chiefly by searching for mistakes, so that we have to correct them. - Karl Popper

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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:04 pm

Could you refer to the specific pages which contain the problems. I take it one of them is the Classified information page:

http://wiki.evageeks.org/Classified_Information_%28Translation%29

But which pages contain the "contact with Adam" problem?

Also, have you considered signing up for a wiki account?
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Postby gchristnsn » Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:24 am

View Original PostObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:Could you refer to the specific pages which contain the problems. I take it one of them is the Classified information page:

http://wiki.evageeks.org/Classified_Information_%28Translation%29

But which pages contain the "contact with Adam" problem?


Actually this page is a huge problem: http://wiki.evageeks.org/Third_Impact :

I pointed this earlier, but I'll list this here again:

1. There are no facts to confirm that the angels wish to return into Adam (actually it's not possible to prove this by using facts, but it's possible to prove the opposite). The information about that angels want to return into Adam is only known from Kaworu when he tries to approach Lilith, and there is no explicit connection in his words between his supposed reunion with Lilith and the following extermination of Humanity (Kaworu is Seele's boy and he is not driven by an instinct but executes Seele's plan [he points to this directly: "Everything is going according to the Lilim's plans."] to take control of Lilith from Gendo, he then allows Shinji to choose to be complemented later by the artificial third impact planned by Seele or to continue his fight for life as a human being).
The information about that an angel to Adam contact could produce an impact is only known from Kaji at the melon line [ep. 19], but earlier he identified Lilith as Adam and definitely speaks about the giant at the dogma. There could not be an impact after the contact of an angel with Lilith, or they would not put Unit 01 (made from Lilith) into the fight (there was also the episode of a contact of the Adam-based Eva with Lilith at the dogma through the spear pointed by Misato in the ep. 22, she then speculates that all this may be a lie because the second impact wasn't caused by an angel).
Moreover, there is a hint for a possible mechanism of an impact (it happens when a DNA-marker of a Lilith-based being activates the link between Adam's power supply and his anti-AT filed explosive system), so the impact from the contact of Adam with an angel looks completely absurd, angels just want to destroy Lilith.

In simpler words, the belief about that angels wish to reunite with Adam and this will produce an impact is a huge misconception which Seele uses to cover the complementation conspiracy (they're trying not to prevent the 3I but artificially initiate it secretly from the government).
So there should be at least no information about the 3I from the angels on the wiki, but quotations of Kaworu and Kaji with explanation, that there are no facts to confirm them.

2. As it was mentioned in the OP-post, wiki states that "Seele intend for Instrumentality to only be for their own council members." But they say "we'll complement the souls of humanity" in EoE (last episode, somewhere around the eighth minute). They were a cabbalistic religious society (as it known from CI) and though that they're restoring Adam Kadmon from the souls of the entire humanity, including themselves, through a religious ritual (but actually they operated FAR technologies to convert Humanity into a true descendant of Lilith which should develop from the egg at the orbit).
The misconception about Seele's personal complementation originates from the misinterpretation of CI in assumption that "the information appears to reconcile fully with the show."

3. Gendo's goal is to transform the humanity into a being with the both fruits and become equivalent to FAR which Seele considered as God (Seele considered this blasphemy, and their goal probably was to transform the humanity into a being with the fruit of life which they considered as Adam Kadmon in strict accordance with the scrolls). Gendo's goal is clear from his words "transfer sous to Yui's place" (Unit 01 with the both fruits) in EoE.


This page is less problematic: http://wiki.evageeks.org/Second_Impact

It refers to the misconception about the impact from angels in the "Hidden agenda" section. Although it was necessary to protect Adam from the recovery by angels (as it stated in CI), the hidden agenda was to separate Adam's soul from his body with the anti-AT field generated by Adam himself to create Kaworu (whose clones in similarity with Rei then should be used in the Kaworu-based dummy plug system).


CI

There also at least one place in CI, which does not reconcile with the show (as it was shown earlier by Seele's quote from EoE), and two places which meaning could be affected by the misconception about the third impact from angels:

1. The first is the goal of Seele, mentioned earlier (so there should be a note that "the information does not appear to reconcile fully with the show" or something).
2. The phrase "Some of them were trying to access Lilith and reset all life" does not implies an impact (it may mean that they just want to terminate the source of Lilith-based life in TV-show, but it also reconciles with the game mechanics) and there is also no explicit connection between the "access to Lilith" and the reset of all life .
3. The phrases "Nerv's personnel are told" and "It is thought that Third Impact will occur if " imply that it's actually unknown will the contact of angel with Adam or Lilith produce an impact or not, so there are absolutely no facts to confirm the third impact from angels neither in the TV-series nor in CI.

View Original PostObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:Also, have you considered signing up for a wiki account?


Yes, but guys deluded by the misconception about the 3I from angels (which is a root for the most of other) are considered that this is too radical. I just stumbled upon that phrase from the page of CI and want you to think about this and that CI is not fully reconciles with the show.
A short guide to NGE

- Simpler explanations are, other things being equal, generally better than more complex ones. - Occam's razor
- Since we can never know anything for sure, it is simply not worth searching for certainty; but it is well worth searching for truth; and we do this chiefly by searching for mistakes, so that we have to correct them. - Karl Popper

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Postby Dream » Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:57 pm

^ Pay him no mind, he has proved himself inmune to quaint little concepts such as reason.
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:44 pm

Take it easy. We're about improving the wiki here, and these suggestion were helpful.

I've made changes to the Third Impact page which will hopefully clarify what is NGE2 material and what isn't, and made the correction that the Angel's were trying to reach Lilith. I'll try to take a look at the Second Impact and CI pages as well.
I am reminded of some recent reflections I've made on pre and post NGE2 evangelion analysis. Once you've read the CI, it's hard to unread them.
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Postby gchristnsn » Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:01 pm

The page about the third impact much more better now. The simple idea I want to convey is that the words about the impact initiated by angels may be a lie (it's not possible to prove that this is true [as it was shown earlier, the meaning of the corresponding places in CI does not imply an impact, and there is no explicit link between Kaworu's possible reunion with Lilith and the annihilation of Humanity], in addition Misato points to that this may be a lie at the ep. 22). As it was said earlier impact may be initiated only by a contact of a human or Lilith with Adam (you may not believe me, but only when the chamber of Guf is not empty). Moreover, if you would admit that this a lie, everything falls into place.

Someone told to me earlier, that the wiki is intended to keep facts, but current paragraph about the impact from angels contains too much of excess now:

"The Angels are stated as wanting to reunite with Lilith, perhaps as a coherent motive or maybe as simply an instinctive drive."

I think that it would be more precise, that they want to access her, as it stated in CI (actually they just want to destroy her, since Misato stated in EoE that "We were destined to hate each other" and the information about the impact from angels is a lie).

"Gaghiel's search of the Pacific Fleet for the Adam embryo suggests that the Angel's are not simply after Lilith alone, and may simply be seeking out either of the two Source's of Life."

CI says that they also want to recover their progenitor, this they want to do with Adam, so their intentions towards him are known precisely.

"From what happened during Second Impact[3] where all life was erased in Antarctica (aside from Misato), presumably, an Angel reuniting with a Source of Life will result in the creation of generating a world-wide Anti A.T. Field, eliminating all Lilith-based life on the planet, from bacteria to humans. "

I think that it would be enough to mention that everybody would be killed (only this was mentioned by Kaji and Kaworu), the second impact hadn't produced world-wide anti AT-field. This are the facts.


As of the page of CI, the most confusing thing that probably could be changed there is the phrase "the information appears to reconcile fully with the show."
A short guide to NGE

- Simpler explanations are, other things being equal, generally better than more complex ones. - Occam's razor
- Since we can never know anything for sure, it is simply not worth searching for certainty; but it is well worth searching for truth; and we do this chiefly by searching for mistakes, so that we have to correct them. - Karl Popper

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Postby Dream » Sat Jun 08, 2013 6:13 pm

Yeah, the small jab was probably unnecessary, sorry about that.

It's probably not a surprise i don't exactly like this person, and while i don't have much interest or investment in the sections of the wiki regarding Third Impact mechanics and such (as long as they aren't written in such a pretentious or negative way that they tarnish the rest of the site of course), but the people who do know and care about this and discussed such matters with OP have pointed out that his theories had a great deal of flaws to them and he seemed incapable or unwilling to recognize or integrate feedback.

Reason why i'm saying all this is that i would highly recommend to watch out/be careful about any of this person's contribution to the wiki. Sorry for being so unpleasant, but it's something i feel needs to be said.
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Sat Jun 08, 2013 6:33 pm

At its core, the wiki relies on the goodwill of editors. If push comes to shove, there's always the revert button if anyone feel things need changing. It's worth noting that Third Impact material always crazes the line between intermediate and advanced content, so it's hard to say what editorial rules it should be subject to. However at the moment, I think we can still improve the existing page with appropriate information-- and caveats -- without needing special editorial procedures or an edit war.
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Postby gchristnsn » Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:09 am

View Original PostDream wrote:It's probably not a surprise i don't exactly like this person, and while i don't have much interest or investment in the sections of the wiki regarding Third Impact mechanics and such (as long as they aren't written in such a pretentious or negative way that they tarnish the rest of the site of course) theories had a great deal of flaws to them and he seemed incapable or unwilling to recognize or integrate feedback.


If you want to speak on this, I always open. If you are able to provide examples of flaws, you may reinforce you point. But the point is that the community was poisoned by taking the possibility of the impact from angels as absolute truth (I know, it's hard to break a misconception that was in the center of a possible interpretation of the world for years and this will produce resistance in any case).

View Original PostDream wrote:Reason why i'm saying all this is that i would highly recommend to watch out/be careful about any of this person's contribution to the wiki. Sorry for being so unpleasant, but it's something i feel needs to be said.


I have no account at wiki, so you can have peace of mind. What I'm talking about now, that the possibility of an impact from angels is a root point for other misconceptions, and because it may be interpreted incorrectly, a half of the plot would be hidden. Because of that, the information on the wiki should contain as less speculations as possible. And what I offer now is only to list there facts from the CI and show. And it would be nice if there would be Misato's remark about the impact from angels from the ep. 22.
Last edited by gchristnsn on Sun Jun 09, 2013 3:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
A short guide to NGE

- Simpler explanations are, other things being equal, generally better than more complex ones. - Occam's razor
- Since we can never know anything for sure, it is simply not worth searching for certainty; but it is well worth searching for truth; and we do this chiefly by searching for mistakes, so that we have to correct them. - Karl Popper

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Postby Dream » Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:16 am

Like i said as long as you don't bring your arrogance to a page like that of a main character or so i honestly don't care. I would just ask that you try to not have such an arrogant stance ("But the point is that the community was poisoned by taking the possibility of the impact from angels as absolute truth (I know, it's hard to break a misconception that was in the center of a possible interpretation of the world for years and this will produce resistance in any case).") but really, that's more of a request for courtesy and proper ettiquette than any problem with your Third Impact and plot arguments, which again as long as you don't bring to "real" discussion i don't care about.
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Postby gchristnsn » Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:21 am

View Original PostDream wrote:I would just ask that you try to not have such an arrogant stance...


I just want you to notice that you're blaming me on the basis of personal allergy by not reaffirming your point. But I have facts on my side. So, the one who is arrogant here is you, my friend.
Last edited by gchristnsn on Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:17 am, edited 5 times in total.
A short guide to NGE

- Simpler explanations are, other things being equal, generally better than more complex ones. - Occam's razor
- Since we can never know anything for sure, it is simply not worth searching for certainty; but it is well worth searching for truth; and we do this chiefly by searching for mistakes, so that we have to correct them. - Karl Popper

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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:12 am

Again, this thread is about the wiki. These previous disagreements, personal or interpretational, are not the subject of the thread. Please stick to the topic and not the person.
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Postby gchristnsn » Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:16 am

OK, I'll just take the text from the wiki and fix it here:

---

In the TV-show the information about the angels' version of the Third Impact is only known from Kaji and Kaworu. It is stated by both Kaji[1] and in particular Kaworu[2] that contact with "Adam" (actually the white giant Lilith placed in the terminal dogma and misidentified as Adam by Kaji) will result in Third Impact and the end of humanity. The classified information contains more details on angels' intentions: "Some of them were trying to access Lilith and reset all life, some of them had nothing in mind, and some were trying to recover their progenitor Adam.", although nothing is said about the impact here.
The section of the CI on the third impact states that "It is thought that Third Impact will occur if an Angel comes in contact with either Lilith (in Terminal Dogma) or Adam.", which means that the possibility of the Third Impact from angels is not known precisely.
In the 22-th episode, when it was necessary to send Adam-based Unit 00 into the terminal dogma, Misato had suspected that this information may be a lie: "It's a lie? Second Impact wasn't caused by contact with an Angel."

---

The phrase "the information appears to reconcile fully with the show" on the page of CI may be edited as following:

---

the information appears to reconcile fully with the show, except the information which is related to the multiple different endings of the game

---

Feel free to object/edit/discuss.
A short guide to NGE

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- Since we can never know anything for sure, it is simply not worth searching for certainty; but it is well worth searching for truth; and we do this chiefly by searching for mistakes, so that we have to correct them. - Karl Popper

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Postby UrsusArctos » Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:13 am

I suppose I should have weighed in on this thread earlier, and I apologize for the late entry.

gchrstnsn, I hate to pour cold water on you, but I'm very unsure as to whether the CI contains information that's an outright "lie". While I will not contradict your theories in detail, I really must ask you for further proof on what you're saying.

Right now, the CI is the best we have for a lot of our information. A lot of the suppositions we have - such as the Angels wanting to start their own Third Impact with Lilith - come from facts implied or outright stated in the show (Kaji in Episode 19, as a fact), and in the absence of better in-show evidence, we have to go with it. Granted, some of the stuff from CI is rather tacky-looking, but it does clear up a whole lot of questions that would be unanswered otherwise, and it does contain information from Hideaki Anno himself. Speculation would be a lot worse and a lot woolier without it. Why nuke it?
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Postby gchristnsn » Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:32 pm

View Original PostUrsusArctos wrote:I suppose I should have weighed in on this thread earlier, and I apologize for the late entry.

gchrstnsn, I hate to pour cold water on you, but I'm very unsure as to whether the CI contains information that's an outright "lie". While I will not contradict your theories in detail, I really must ask you for further proof on what you're saying.



I already proved that, please be more attentive. The fact from the show (Seele, EoE: "We'll complement the souls of all humanity", moreover they were glad to complement with the rest of the humanity) contradicts to the fact from CI ("Seele's intention for this man-made god is to guide the elite (themselves) to state near that of God's."). And this is because the game have multiple endings and not reconciles with the show completely. You must understand now, that CI follows the in-game logic regarding the questions of complementation and the impact from Angels.
I returned the note you have deleted. It's very important to keep this note at the wiki to not to allow the contradictions from CI to flow in the information about the show.

View Original PostUrsusArctos wrote:Right now, the CI is the best we have for a lot of our information. A lot of the suppositions we have - such as the Angels wanting to start their own Third Impact with Lilith - come from facts implied or outright stated in the show (Kaji in Episode 19, as a fact), and in the absence of better in-show evidence, we have to go with it. Granted, some of the stuff from CI is rather tacky-looking, but it does clear up a whole lot of questions that would be unanswered otherwise, and it does contain information from Hideaki Anno himself. Speculation would be a lot worse and a lot woolier without it. Why nuke it?


It's possible to prove that Adam wasn't a target for the impact, this makes the whole Kaji's statement a lie (so it could not be used as a fact as any statement on that topic from CI, because every statement there leaves two possibilities). It's actually not possible to prove or disprove the impact from angels without knowledge of the mechanism of impact, but there is a hint for a possible mechanism, and Misato's statements shows that this mechanism is true (impact could not be initiated by an angel).
The things get more simpler if you believe that there is no magic in the world of Evangelion (in this case the mechanism of the impact is the same regardless of circumstances, and an angel to Unit 01 contact would produce an impact), so the information about the impact initiated by angels is definitely a lie.
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Postby UrsusArctos » Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:05 pm

You're peddling your own views in place of what has been discussed and tossed about for ages, and I'm not impressed. Even as far as the HIP goes, Seele wanted to have Instrumentality go as per their plans - why else would they stake so much into turning humanity into a sea of nothingness?
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Postby gchristnsn » Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:46 am

View Original PostUrsusArctos wrote:You're peddling your own views in place of what has been discussed and tossed about for ages, and I'm not impressed.


Two subtle things were missed then: impact from the angels was accepted as an absolute truth, and it was assumed that CI is fully reconciles with the show, although there are no reasons for this. Try to imagine that the impact from Angels is a lie (then you'll see the conspiracy, that why the government spied for Nerv and Seele, and the governmental military knew nothing about the true nature of Angels), and if you accept that CI is not fully reconciles with the show, you'll see that the goal of Seele is different.

View Original PostUrsusArctos wrote:Even as far as the HIP goes, Seele wanted to have Instrumentality go as per their plans - why else would they stake so much into turning humanity into a sea of nothingness?


As CI states: "Their dogma is the Path to Adam Kadmon — that is, the approaching of a divinity both ageless and undying."
As it already was explained, they believed that they are restoring Adam Kadmon from the souls of all humanity (the Tree of Life in EoE confirms this). Actually they moved souls of all humanity including themselves not in Unit 01 as in the game (in the show they considered that this would be a blasphemy) but into the egg of Lilith placed on orbit using the technology of FAR (as of mythology Lilith was cursed and destined to give birth to cursed children: Lilim, Seele's complementation plan is actually creation of a true descendant of Lilith). Gendo's plan was to move the souls into Unit 01 (to Yui's place).

[edit]

For further discussion: if you believe that Seele's plan in the show completely reconciles with CI, you need to counter the fact that the use of Unit 01 wasn't the part of Seele's plan (they also considered this as a blasphemy and "have no intention to create a new god") [ep. 20, 21, 24, EoE]
You also need to provide a reason other than creation of true descendant of Lilith for the ascension of Lilith's egg and why souls were transferred there.
If there are no reasons, we accept that CI is not fully reconciles with the show, and I'll return that note.
A short guide to NGE

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- Since we can never know anything for sure, it is simply not worth searching for certainty; but it is well worth searching for truth; and we do this chiefly by searching for mistakes, so that we have to correct them. - Karl Popper

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Postby Shinoyami65 » Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:49 am

View Original Postgchristnsn wrote: It was assumed that CI is fully reconciles with the show.


There's no assumption going on here; the CI was created after extensive interviews with Hideaki Anno himself. That's enough to render it as first or second tier canon in the Tiers of Canonicity. Additionally, very much of what we read of in the CI reconciles with what is mentioned in the show. Here are some examples:

1. "The Angels wish to return to Adam". While we see very few examples of this in the show, the attack by Gaghiel on the fleet carrying Kaji and the Adam embryo seems to suggests that some Angels (or at least Gaghiel) were attempting to hunt down the Adam embryo. Note that the attack occurs fairly far away from Tokyo-3, so it is not likely that the attack was simply due to the fleet crossing paths with Gaghiel. Kaji and Misato also seem to indicate that the attack was aimed at the embryo:

Episode 8  SPOILER: Show

Misato: This is odd. It almost seems to be looking for something.

This illustrates that this wasn't a random attack; Gaghiel is clearly looking for something amongst the fleet.
Episode 8, Kaji and Gendo  SPOILER: Show

Kaji: For an Angel to attack here... Isn't it a little different from the deal we had?
Gendo: That is what Eva-02 is for, and I've generously provided a second pilot as a reserve. If the worst comes to worst, escape by yourself.


Gendo knows that an Angel would come after Adam; this is why Eva-02 is with the fleet and Shinji is there are well. He also knows that Kaji and the embryo will be in danger from the Angel, thus he orders him to escape if the Angel tries to reach Adam.

2. "The use of Eva-01 was part of SEELE's plan".There are several indications that Eva-01 was always intended to be used as a "substitute" for Lilith. While they may never have intended for it to become a being bearing an S^2 Engine, in EoE we clearly see that they wanted to use it:

EoE, Fuyutsuki  SPOILER: Show

Hyuuga: Eva-01 has been captured!
Aoba: Ascending to 12,000 meters and still rising!
Fuyutsuki:Those old bastards! Does SEELE plan to use Eva-01 as a medium?


Here we can clearly see that SEELE wanted to use Eva-01; additionally, they probably planned for this from the start, otherwise what would be the point of producing a Lilith-based Evangelion?

3. "The ascension of Lilith's Egg". I must admit that here i have no idea what you're trying to prove. During EoE the Black Moon (Lilith's Egg) rises; this appears to be entirely under Lilith's power and seems to be how she initiates Third Impact. It appears that the souls are channelled into the Egg by Lilith because this is how humanity's souls arrived on Earth:

EoE, more Fuyutsuki exposition  SPOILER: Show

Fuyutsuki: The Egg of Lilith, the source of all human life. The Black Moon. We no longer wish to return inside her shell. But that is for Lilith to decide.


This heavily suggests that humanity's souls were originally inside the Black Moon, and that Third Impact will cause them to return to inside the Egg. Hence why the souls are channelled into the Egg during 3I.

It is also important to note that the Black Moon does not rise due to the FAR's technology (or at least not under the control of SEELE). While the Black Moon is unearthed by the MP Evas unleashing their AT Fields, the Black Moon does not actually start to rise until Lilith awakens and becomes Giant Naked Rei; thus it is heavily implied that Lilith is actually the one moving the Black Moon, possibly with her ATF.

It is also important to note that SEELE was not in control of Lilith's awakening and 3I itself- although they seem satisfied with the result, Rei rejoined Lilith of her own free will, and it is possible that the events we see diverge wildly from SEELE's version- they are merely happy to see that humanity will be reverted to LCL.

4. "If an Angel reaches Lilith or Adam, Third Impact will occur". While there is seemingly little evidence to suggest that this is what will happen, there is actually a large amount of evidence that contact with either Lilith or Adam by an Angel will result in an Impact. In Lilith's case there is the fact that several Angels appear at Tokyo-3 before the Adam embryo even arrives; they are probably trying to reach Lilith (whether or not they believe her to be Adam is a moot point) in order to start an Impact. So it is clear that the Angels believe that if they reach Lilith they can start an Impact; Gaghiel's actions also seem to indicate that if it were to reach the Adam embryo, it would also cause Impact. Why else would the Geofront be so heavily defended? The only explanation is that SEELE knew that if an Angel were to reach Lilith it would cause an Impact outside of their control which would go against their plans; thus they placed heavy defenses around Lilith to prevent that from happening. Kaworu also seems to suggest that if he came into contact with Lilith he'd be able to erase all human life:

Episode 24, Kaworu  SPOILER: Show

KAWORU: "My last will and testament. Now, erase me from this world. If you don't, you will be the ones who are erased. Only one life form will be chosen to survive the time of destruction and be given a future. And you are not a being who should die. Your people need the future."


SEELE also seem to imply that if Shinji did not kill Kaworu, it would result in things going against their plan:

Episode 24, SEELE  SPOILER: Show

SEELE: Humans forget their foolishness and repeat their mistakes. If humans do not redeem themselves willingly, they will not change. We will not rely on the powers of Adam or the Angels.

Keel: Our only choice is to make changes with our own hands for the future. I will be praying that Eva-01 will accomplish its task.


This clearly indicates that SEELE want Kaworu to die; otherwise their plans will not come to fruition.

(As a side note, the fact that they say that the do not intend to rely on Adam or the Angels clearly indicates that they did not plan to use Lilith, an Angel, in Third Impact and instead were instead going to use Eva-01, Lilith's successor; Keel's line about wanting Eva-01 to accomplish its "task" may also be a reference to this).


5. "Anti-AT Field". I notice that you refer to Adam's "power supply" and "Anti-AT Field explosive system". I have no idea what you're talking about, but I should probably clarify that Adam is fuelled by an S^2 Engine, like all Angels:

Episode 21, opening  SPOILER: Show


Man A: Only the S^2 theory can explain that giant's power


The Anti-AT Field is not an "explosive" like you seem to believe it is, but rather a form of energy field similar to normal AT Fields (as shown in EoE, where Lilith's Anti-AT Field is said to "expand" and is demonstrated to some extent by the bridge crew tanging). There is also absolutely no mention at all of "when a DNA-marker of a Lilith-based being activates the link between Adam's power supply and his anti-AT filed explosive system"; indeed one would be hard-pressed to find the term "DNA-marker" in the English language. We are given no context on what occurred during Second Impact other than that genes "dived" into Adam; we don't know what this did and how it exactly led to the Impact, so attempting to rationalise what happened without bringing in reference from the show itself or the CI is pure conjecture.


In conclusion, there are several correlations between the CI and the show. As the CI came directly from Anno himself, NGE's creator, its statements can be considered canon to the events of the show. Furthermore, the CI does explain several events that previously were unexplained in a logical way, and there are no entirely solid arguments against its statements. It may not be entirely perfect, but it is the best we have (unless we manage to get a direct line to Anno so he can explain everything in person).
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Now I know that it's true
Because I think you're so good
And I'm nothing like you

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Postby Ornette » Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:26 am

As far as Seele and Eva-01, there's also this from EoE:

Keel wrote:The promised time has come.
With the Lance of Longinus now lost, complementation using Lilith is impossible.
Our only hope is to proceed with EVA-01, Lilith's sole clone.

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Postby gchristnsn » Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:49 am

View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:There's no assumption going on here; the CI was created after extensive interviews with Hideaki Anno himself. That's enough to render it as first or second tier canon in the Tiers of Canonicity. Additionally, very much of what we read of in the CI reconciles with what is mentioned in the show.


And the message I'm trying to convey that it does not reconcile with the show regarding the questions of instrumentality project, and that it's also ambiguous regarding the question of the third impact of angels (the both cases of possibility and impossibility of the impact reconcile with CI).

View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:1. "The Angels wish to return to Adam".


Could be easily refuted. CI states that angels tried to recover Adam, so why they may look for the embryo. But if it would be a target for an impact, Ramiel would bore to the embryo instead of Lilith, and Seele would keep it in the fortress-city (Kaji smuggled it there).

View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:2. "The use of Eva-01 was part of SEELE's plan".

Here we can clearly see that SEELE wanted to use Eva-01; additionally, they probably planned for this from the start, otherwise what would be the point of producing a Lilith-based Evangelion?


I'll just put some quotes, OK?

"I didn't expect it [Unit 01] to use such a manner to take that in. That incident was very different from our scenario." [ep. 20]

"We have no intention of creating a new god. A living god created by us. It's blasphemy." [ep. 21]

"We expect you to carry out the project using a duplicate of Lillith, Eva Unit 01. That's different from Seele's scenario." [EoE, ep. 25]

They used Unit 01 just because it was easily reachable and already advanced to a messiah (a messiah created from Lilith will decay and there would be no blasphemy). In the CI (but not in the show) the use of Unit 01 equipped with S2 was planned from the beginning.

View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:3. "The ascension of Lilith's Egg". I must admit that here i have no idea what you're trying to prove. During EoE the Black Moon (Lilith's Egg) rises; this appears to be entirely under Lilith's power and seems to be how she initiates Third Impact. It appears that the souls are channelled into the Egg by Lilith because this is how humanity's souls arrived on Earth:

EoE, more Fuyutsuki exposition  SPOILER: Show

Fuyutsuki: The Egg of Lilith, the source of all human life. The Black Moon. We no longer wish to return inside her shell. But that is for Lilith to decide.



I'm trying to show that the egg but not Unit 01 was the destination of the souls and Unit 01 was just a medium which forms the tree of life, needed to obtain God's creative power [which actually the technologies of FAR]. Here CI contradicts to the show.


View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:It is also important to note that the Black Moon does not rise due to the FAR's technology (or at least not under the control of SEELE). While the Black Moon is unearthed by the MP Evas unleashing their AT Fields, the Black Moon does not actually start to rise until Lilith awakens and becomes Giant Naked Rei; thus it is heavily implied that Lilith is actually the one moving the Black Moon, possibly with her ATF.


Yes, they use ATF to move it, but ATF (as the creation of the tree of life) is a part of FAR technology.


View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:It is also important to note that SEELE was not in control of Lilith's awakening and 3I itself- although they seem satisfied with the result, Rei rejoined Lilith of her own free will, and it is possible that the events we see diverge wildly from SEELE's version- they are merely happy to see that humanity will be reverted to LCL.


Here we go again. They're talking that they plan to complement souls of all the humanity using Shinji's wish to run away from the society which hurts him, and they are speaking "All is going as planned" just before they themselves are decomposed to LCL [EoE, ep 26 near the 22-th min.].

View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:4. "If an Angel reaches Lilith or Adam, Third Impact will occur".


As it was said earlier, it's not possible to prove or disprove this if you don't know the mechanism of the impact, so you may even not try without it. Nothing prevents to think that they just wished to eat Lilith to destroy the source of Lilith-based life, and Misato's statement along with the hint for the mechanism of the impact suggest that this is true.

View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:Kaworu also seems to suggest that if he came into contact with Lilith he'd be able to erase all human life:

Episode 24, Kaworu  SPOILER: Show

KAWORU: "My last will and testament. Now, erase me from this world. If you don't, you will be the ones who are erased. Only one life form will be chosen to survive the time of destruction and be given a future. And you are not a being who should die. Your people need the future."


SEELE also seem to imply that if Shinji did not kill Kaworu, it would result in things going against their plan:

Episode 24, SEELE  SPOILER: Show

SEELE: Humans forget their foolishness and repeat their mistakes. If humans do not redeem themselves willingly, they will not change. We will not rely on the powers of Adam or the Angels.

Keel: Our only choice is to make changes with our own hands for the future. I will be praying that Eva-01 will accomplish its task.


This clearly indicates that SEELE want Kaworu to die; otherwise their plans will not come to fruition.

(As a side note, the fact that they say that the do not intend to rely on Adam or the Angels clearly indicates that they did not plan to use Lilith, an Angel, in Third Impact and instead were instead going to use Eva-01, Lilith's successor; Keel's line about wanting Eva-01 to accomplish its "task" may also be a reference to this).


He does not tell that annihilation of humanity would be direct result of his actions, and he does not tell what the form of life should suffice. This could be explained as the true descendant of Lilith will supersede humans in the result of the artificial 3I.

As it was explained earlier, they didn't intend to use Unit 01 from the beginning, and used it just because of the circumstances.


View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:5. "Anti-AT Field". I notice that you refer to Adam's "power supply" and "Anti-AT Field explosive system". I have no idea what you're talking about, but I should probably clarify that Adam is fuelled by an S^2 Engine, like all Angels:

Episode 21, opening  SPOILER: Show


Man A: Only the S^2 theory can explain that giant's power



"The S2 engine and the explosive system are being linked! We can't stop it!" [UN video, ep. 21]

The event chain is the following: a test subject merges with Adam -> the link is activated by a DNA-marker [hint is Ritsuko's reference to DNA in the ep.5, and several forms of helical biotechnology (the lance and S2)] -> 2I occurs (this is anti AT-field event, so the explosive system emits anti AT-field).

View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:The Anti-AT Field is not an "explosive" like you seem to believe it is, but rather a form of energy field similar to normal AT Fields (as shown in EoE, where Lilith's Anti-AT Field is said to "expand" and is demonstrated to some extent by the bridge crew tanging).


Yes, it just neutralizes AT-field which is the boundary of the soul, so all lifeforms turn to LCL after the exposure.

View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:There is also absolutely no mention at all of "when a DNA-marker of a Lilith-based being activates the link between Adam's power supply and his anti-AT filed explosive system"; indeed one would be hard-pressed to find the term "DNA-marker" in the English language. We are given no context on what occurred during Second Impact other than that genes "dived" into Adam; we don't know what this did and how it exactly led to the Impact, so attempting to rationalise what happened without bringing in reference from the show itself or the CI is pure conjecture.


Ritsuko, in the ep. 5 may be such a mention. This is the most reasonable mechanism. An impact from a contact of Adam with an angel looks absurd because it would harm the ecosystem. You may not believe it, but Misato's words in the ep. 22 is a hint that this mechanism is true.

View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:In conclusion, there are several correlations between the CI and the show. As the CI came directly from Anno himself, NGE's creator, its statements can be considered canon to the events of the show. Furthermore, the CI does explain several events that previously were unexplained in a logical way, and there are no entirely solid arguments against its statements. It may not be entirely perfect, but it is the best we have (unless we manage to get a direct line to Anno so he can explain everything in person).


But there are also several contradictions. And it's reasonable to conclude that they are because CI follows the in-game logic which is not completely reconciles with the show, as it was shown earlier.
A short guide to NGE

- Simpler explanations are, other things being equal, generally better than more complex ones. - Occam's razor
- Since we can never know anything for sure, it is simply not worth searching for certainty; but it is well worth searching for truth; and we do this chiefly by searching for mistakes, so that we have to correct them. - Karl Popper


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