Theory about Kaworu's intentions.

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Postby Charsi » Thu May 30, 2013 8:24 am

The doublecross occured when Gendo was given control of Eva13's construction and built under one of the back armor plates a mechanism for WILLE (Mari) to eject Seele's backup plan (Shinji).

Until that point Gendo and Seele were doing the same thing.

Kaworu was doublecrossed very early, when he to Central Dogma and found two Longinus instead of one spear of each kind. Whatever he was planning on doing with them probably wouldn't have involved chowing down on the core of an Angel (unless he was planning to be dinner with Shinji in control of the impact, hmmm).

The lance morph is explained by linking lance to what it is stopping (Eva or Angel). The lance morph then gives away that Mark.06 has been hollowed out and replaced over time and all that's left is two descendants of Angels: Lilith (the 2nd Angel?) and the 12th Angel locked in the body of Mark.06.

I put more theorizing about this in the spears thread. I'm not entirely sure it's on topic for either place!

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Postby DarthGendo » Thu May 30, 2013 8:30 am

Also, both SEELE and Kaworu were doublecrossed when the latter put on the DSS choker.
Apparently, without it, Kaworu couldn't forcefully stop the Impact partly.
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Postby ElMariachi » Thu May 30, 2013 8:33 am

View Original PostDarthGendo wrote:Maybe you're right and Lances do act like moderators for Impacts.
Still, what we get in Q with 2 LoL is what SEELE actually wanted and Kaworu apparently didn't.
+ LoC morphed into LoL.
= SEELE and Gendo knew that, Kaworu didn't.
Question: who doublecrossed who?

Your theory is based on the fact that Kaworu wanted to double-cross SEELE, but, and that's exactly the point of my thread, during the whole movie, he only talked about double-crossing NERV, he never even mention SEELE to Shinji in the whole movie, which is why I think that his objectives(making Shinji happy) coincide with SEELE's(HIP), if Kaworu's idea of happiness for Shinji is to take him in the front seat of HIP so that he's the one who will bring the "artificial evolution" to mankind and become a hero.
That would include that the ritual with two different spears were SEELE and Kaworu's plan, that Gendo thwarted it somehow because the LoC morphed into a LoL, and that in the end WILLE were doing the right thing since in any case an Impact which would affect mankind(whether it's to evolve them or exterminate them) has been prevented.

The problem is that we know almost nothing about Kaworu's relationship with SEELE in NTE : in NGE it was made clear that SEELE tricked Kaworu into making him believe that it was ADAM in Terminal Dogma, but in NTE there was only one conversation where SEELE talked about Kaworu, and that was when SEELE-01 talked with Kaworu himself in the Moon at the end of 1.0, and Kaworu seemed to be far more in the loop here than in NGE.
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Postby Charsi » Thu May 30, 2013 8:34 am

View Original PostDarthGendo wrote:Also, both SEELE and Kaworu were doublecrossed when the latter put on the DSS choker.
Apparently, without it, Kaworu couldn't forcefully stop the Impact partly.


But his death didn't stop the 4th Impact at all; nor did the spears. Seele accounted for this in designing a dual plug Eva that would remain active even after one of it's two pilots died.

All Kaworu's spears and death caused was for Eva13 to fall from the sky. Perhaps the impact would have killed Shinji and Mari just saved his life. Dunno. But Guf, once opened, stayed open until the Eva deactivated fully.

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Postby ElMariachi » Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:09 pm

A little thought about SEELE and their plan for HIP : in 1.0 and 2.0 their plan was to use Mark.06 as the "true Evangelion" which will be deified and will carry out HIP. Mark.06, a single entry plug Evangelion, and thus only able to wield one spear at a time. So before the time skip, SEELE was content to use only one spear to trigger Instrumentality.
So why did they get through all the time and trouble to create EVA-13, a double entry plug Evangelion, to carry out Instrumentality in 3.0?
That's not because of the lid sealing Lilith's chamber, since there is other ways to enter via the cracks in the wall (how could Asuka and Mari have installed their ambush point with a sniper nest of that wasn't the case?), that's not to getting the spears out of the way, since a single pilot Evangelion could pull out one spear, throw it away and then pick up the second. Did SEELE didn't trusted Kaworu to carry on their plan and put a second pilot as a security? Possible but if they though their Angel boy unreliable, why involve him at all? Why didn't they just created a single entry plug system and ordered Shinji to pilot it, once he pulled out the spears and 4I begin, there is nothing Shinji would be able to do to stop it, since he doesn't have any clue of how an Impact works?

The only reason I could think off that would push SEELE to create an Evangelion with a double entry plug system is that now they needed to use two spears instead of one for HIP. So then, why did they need two spears now? What is different now compared to before the time skip that requires them to use two spears instead of one like they planned originally?

I think that SEELE too actually want to repair the world!
Think about it : what presumably wrecked the world and transformed it into that lovecraftian landscape was either :
1/ the result of N3I, and Impact without any spears to control it, meaning an awakened Evangelion without spears or...
2/ maybe that was the 12eh Angel's doing during the mysterious events during the time skip, but here while there was spears nearby, what the lacked was an awakened Evangelion, worse : it was probably an Angel who started it, what both SEELE and NERV want to avoid at all cost, it was an Impact with spears, but without awakened Evangelion as a catalyst.


From 3.0, we saw that an Impact with an awakened Evangelion and two Longinus spears wont restore the planet, but will just finish the job of exterminating the Lilin, probably finish their evolution into beings with the FoL, but the landscape would remain untouched, that would fit perfectly with SEELE's objectives before the time skip... but before the world was in a somewhat good shape(sure the ocean were dead and the climate wonky, but there was still animals, plants and no Moon crashing on Earth or giant teeth canyons growing on the ground), so the reason for SEELE to use two spears is that it will trigger something different, and with two LoL this different thing don't happen.
So what if SEELE wanted to use a combo of LoL and LoC : doing Instrumentality with the Longinus, while the Cassius is restoring Earth into a better suited environment for the newly born evolved race?

Unlike in NGE were they wanted to unite mankind into one giant mind inside the Black Moon or an Evangelion(or if the NGE2 game is canon to just sacrifice the souls of mankind so that the members of SEELE can be fused into EVA-01 as an immortal god) and thus the state of the planet wasn't important, here in NTE they planned for the evolved mankind to return to Earth and colonize it as godly beings, that imply that the state of the planet will be kinda important and that the world will need a suitable environment for the new race.

If that theory is true, then that would mean that SEELE didn't planned at all that there would be two Longinus spears and that it's all Gendo's doing to force Kaworu to abort the ceremony at all cost, because even if the ceremony goes to its term and mankind get artificially evolved, the state of the planet would not let them prosper and they could even perish in the long term. All of this because only half of SEELE's plan was carried to term.
And maybe that's what Fuyutsuki referred to when he said that "nearly everything went as Seele had intended."

But that would also mean that Kaworu was about to start the ritual with both spears and trigger Instrumentality at the same time that repairing the world, he said to Shinji that they needed both spears, not just the Cassius, and the Longinus seems to only carry out Instrumentality... so maybe as I said, Kaworu was loyal to SEELE to the end.
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Postby gchristnsn » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:01 am

Although nothing prevents this theory to be true, there are several weak points:

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:if they though their Angel boy unreliable, why involve him at all?


Because Stubborn-head Shinji is perfectly fitted for this plan, but without Kaworu he would not pilot anything in that choker, in addition blamed by Misato and warned by Fuyutsuki on the matter of that the world lacks reversibility. When Shinji gets the hope, he wishes to restore the world to not to be blamed. To turn his mind they misinformed Kaworu on the matter of the spears (there are most likely spears of just one type which refer to the same Gaius Cassius Longinus).

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:here in NTE they planned for the evolved mankind to return to Earth and colonize it as godly beings, that imply that the state of the planet will be kinda important and that the world will need a suitable environment for the new race.


There is some deicide offered them by Gendo, so probably they thought that the being would travel somewhere. The Eva-series factory also worked in full extent, and this is definitely part of Seele's plan.

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:If that theory is true, then that would mean that SEELE didn't planned at all that there would be two Longinus spears and that it's all Gendo's doing to force Kaworu to abort the ceremony at all cost


One of Gendo's intentions is to reunite with Yui. This is sufficient reason for him to stop the plan.
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Postby Rahxephon » Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:11 am

Well, how about after the 2.22 credits, when Kaworu impales Shinji/ unit 01 with the spear of cassius and stops third impact..

he then says ... "The promised time has come. This time, I'll definitely make you happy, Ikari Shinji Kun"

When just earlier in the movie, he said I look forward to meeting?

So why did he say Ill make you happy THIS TIME?

what could this possibly mean if they have never met before then?
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Postby Shinoyami65 » Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:55 am

View Original PostRahxephon wrote:Well, how about after the 2.22 credits, when Kaworu impales Shinji/ unit 01 with the spear of cassius and stops third impact..

he then says ... "The promised time has come. This time, I'll definitely make you happy, Ikari Shinji Kun"

When just earlier in the movie, he said I look forward to meeting?

So why did he say Ill make you happy THIS TIME?

what could this possibly mean if they have never met before then?


No-one knows. The current most popular wacky theories are that Kaworu is a looper (travelling through time again and again to bring Shinji happiness, a la Steins;Gate), or that Rebuild is a sequel to NGE and Kaworu remembers Episode 24.
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Postby ElMariachi » Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:34 pm

View Original Postgchristnsn#639292"]Although nothing prevents this theory to be true, there are several weak points:



[quote="gchristnsn wrote:
Because Stubborn-head Shinji is perfectly fitted for this plan, but without Kaworu he would not pilot anything in that choker, in addition blamed by Misato and warned by Fuyutsuki on the matter of that the world lacks reversibility. When Shinji gets the hope, he wishes to restore the world to not to be blamed. To turn his mind they misinformed Kaworu on the matter of the spears (there are most likely spears of just one type which refer to the same Gaius Cassius Longinus).

I really doubt that Gendo don't have the technology to remove the DSS Choker, he just left it on his son because he probably planned that Kaworu would take it from Shinji.
And remember that what made Shinji utterly refuse to pilot an EVA is the successive revelations about what he supposedly did 14 years ago and the truth about Rei and Yui, revelation heavily implied to have been orchestrated by Gendo and Fuyutsuki.(Toji's shirt is what started the chain of events and I really doubt it a a pure coincidence, especially with someone like Gendo!)
If Gendo and SEELE wanted to just use Shinji, they just had to keep Shinji in the dark(until the moment he received Toji's shirt he was very content to don't know what happened and Kaworu obviously wasn't happy to break the news to him), and when the moment to pilot EVA-13 came, Shinji would have done it, just to see what would happen.
Or Gendo could have sent Rei first to "secure the perimeter" and Shinji would have followed without hesitation, as long as he don't know that she's not "his" Rei.

View Original Postgchristnsn wrote:There is some deicide offered them by Gendo, so probably they thought that the being would travel somewhere. The Eva-series factory also worked in full extent, and this is definitely part of Seele's plan.

That could mean everything and its contrary, Gendo and SEELE love to spurt mystic rants when they talk, "God" could simply be Kaworu, or maybe Lilith.


View Original Postgchristnsn wrote:One of Gendo's intentions is to reunite with Yui. This is sufficient reason for him to stop the plan.

Yes, and the fact the two spears are Longinus types is the way Gendo forced Kaworu to stop the plan, but not before breaking Shinji enough so he will pull them out whatever Kaworu said, so the only option left to stop 4I is to sacrifice himself.


View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:No-one knows. The current most popular wacky theories are that Kaworu is a looper (travelling through time again and again to bring Shinji happiness, a la Steins;Gate), or that Rebuild is a sequel to NGE and Kaworu remembers Episode 24.

A variant of this theory is that Kaworu can travel through dimensions, and that the Kaworu we saw in NGE, the manga and NTE is the same and tries his best to bring happiness to Shinji in every dimensions.
But the "this time" part implies that so far he never succeeded, which is odd since in the manga Shinji is happy at the end. It's the readers who are pissed off but that's another story...
Maybe the manga isn't canon as the dimensions he visited...
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Postby gchristnsn » Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:41 pm

View Original PostRahxephon wrote:So why did he say Ill make you happy THIS TIME?


This is a part of the big trolling campaign by the authors to make the viewers to believe that the Rebuild is a sequel. This actually may be a linguistic trick. There were several such ones at the original show and CI, there are also several in the rebuild, for example Misato's words at the dogma near Lilith. The meaning of Misato's words depends on the supplemental information you have.
There actually several ways to explain Kaworu's words without retcons and sequels, from the crazy assumption that Kaworu clones were drivers of the angels Shinji fought to a simple assumption that Kaworu knows about Shinji's deeds and assumes: "It's time to be happy, man, wait a little, I'll help you".
Since Kaworu promised Shinji to meet him again, there may be more ways to explain this.

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:And remember that what made Shinji utterly refuse to pilot an EVA is the successive revelations about what he supposedly did 14 years ago and the truth about Rei and Yui, revelation heavily implied to have been orchestrated by Gendo and Fuyutsuki.(Toji's shirt is what started the chain of events and I really doubt it a a pure coincidence, especially with someone like Gendo!)
If Gendo and SEELE wanted to just use Shinji, they just had to keep Shinji in the dark(until the moment he received Toji's shirt he was very content to don't know what happened and Kaworu obviously wasn't happy to break the news to him), and when the moment to pilot EVA-13 came, Shinji would have done it, just to see what would happen.


There are three players with their own goals: Seele, Gendo and Fuyutsuki. The shirt (along with the orders to Ayanami) was definitely from Seele, Gendo was absolutely passive (Misato did the work for him), and Fuyutsuki just had tried to tell Shinji that he is in the center of a greater game, because he works not for Gendo, but for Yui.
It's actually may be possible to restore something using lances, for example, through the tree of life as in EoE, and we might see this in 4.0. But the message from Fuyutsuki was in that the world is irreversible, and Gendo understands this, so he does not try to return things back. Shinji does not understand the irreversibility of the world, and this is the matter of his fail and the name of the movie.
Seele deludes Shinji through friendship with Kaworu (Shinji does not trust father), and they should not keep him in the dark. As it was explained earlier, they use his intention to fix the world to not to be blamed (they should blame him before then). This would be much more effective than directions from the mistrusted father.
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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:31 am

View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:The current most popular wacky theories are that Kaworu is a looper (travelling through time again and again to bring Shinji happiness, a la Steins;Gate), or that Rebuild is a sequel to NGE and Kaworu remembers Episode 24.

At this point, I think that these theories may actually be some of the best that we have to offer. Since we don't yet have the New Theatrical Edition as a whole to pore over and study, there's most certainly a crucial piece of knowledge that we have yet to see. It would being like trying to solve a puzzle when all you have are the borders, and you're missing all of the pieces to build the center.

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Postby ElMariachi » Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:47 pm

View Original Postgchristnsn wrote:There are three players with their own goals: Seele, Gendo and Fuyutsuki. The shirt (along with the orders to Ayanami) was definitely from Seele, Gendo was absolutely passive (Misato did the work for him), and Fuyutsuki just had tried to tell Shinji that he is in the center of a greater game, because he works not for Gendo, but for Yui.

According to Fuyutsuki, SEELE was completely silent since some time, and didn't said anything until the moment of their last conversation with Gendo. If someone made it so Toji's shirt appears on Shinji's room, it was most likely Gendo.
As for Fuyutsuki, we don't know how far his connection with Yui goes in NTE, but when he finished his info-dump, he clearly complained about the "wretched role" he just had to play, meaning that someone asked him to do that.


View Original Postgchristnsn wrote:It's actually may be possible to restore something using lances, for example, through the tree of life as in EoE, and we might see this in 4.0. But the message from Fuyutsuki was in that the world is irreversible, and Gendo understands this, so he does not try to return things back. Shinji does not understand the irreversibility of the world, and this is the matter of his fail and the name of the movie.

I agree : Gendo, Kaworu and maybe even WILLE are trying to move forward, to make things change, while Shinji wanted to move backward, to return to a less painful past.

View Original Postgchristnsn wrote:Seele deludes Shinji through friendship with Kaworu (Shinji does not trust father), and they should not keep him in the dark. As it was explained earlier, they use his intention to fix the world to not to be blamed (they should blame him before then). This would be much more effective than directions from the mistrusted father.

As I said, SEELE was entirely passive during 3.0, if anyone deluded Shinji with his friendship with Kaworu, it was Gendo.
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Postby Stillborn » Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:03 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:I agree : Gendo, Kaworu and maybe even WILLE are trying to move forward, to make things change, while Shinji wanted to move backward, to return to a less painful past.


That little bit reminds me... 2.0 was You can (not) advance. You can not move foreward. 3.0 was You can (not) redo, you can not go backwards.

Does that carry subtle message of "you're stuck"? Whatever that may mean? Just a tiny bit of fanwank. Or I missed something.
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Postby gchristnsn » Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:42 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:According to Fuyutsuki, SEELE was completely silent since some time, and didn't said anything until the moment of their last conversation with Gendo. If someone made it so Toji's shirt appears on Shinji's room, it was most likely Gendo.


Later, Fuyutsuki tells Gendo that "Seele's boy contacted Shinji and showed him the outside world", and they don't know how he would deal with this. This means that Fyu and Gendo were passive towards Shinji. Directons to Ayanami might have been given earlier, it's not required to speak anything to give Shinji a shirt.

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:As for Fuyutsuki, we don't know how far his connection with Yui goes in NTE, but when he finished his info-dump, he clearly complained about the "wretched role" he just had to play, meaning that someone asked him to do that.


He explicitly tells that he works for the sake of Yui at the meeting with silent Seele.

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:As I said, SEELE was entirely passive during 3.0, if anyone deluded Shinji with his friendship with Kaworu, it was Gendo.


The reply to the first paragraph counters this.
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- Since we can never know anything for sure, it is simply not worth searching for certainty; but it is well worth searching for truth; and we do this chiefly by searching for mistakes, so that we have to correct them. - Karl Popper

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Postby ElMariachi » Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:09 pm

View Original Postgchristnsn wrote:Later, Fuyutsuki tells Gendo that "Seele's boy contacted Shinji and showed him the outside world", and they don't know how he would deal with this. This means that Fyu and Gendo were passive towards Shinji. Directons to Ayanami might have been given earlier, it's not required to speak anything to give Shinji a shirt.

That seemed more like a statement of facts, and after Fuyu is musing how well Shinji is taking the blow.
Actually there is no hint in his phrase that they put the shirt here for Shinji to see it and then ask Kaworu, or if it was just a coincidence... it's just that it seems a really big coincidence for me that precisely that shirt came into Shinji's possession and start his descent to madness, madness which was ultimately of vital importance for Gendo, as it's what made Shinji pull out the spears even when Kaworu discovered that there were two of the same, I can't believe that Gendo just hoped that Kaworu wouldn't notice that the two spears were LoL.


He explicitly tells that he works for the sake of Yui at the meeting with silent Seele.

I completely agree with you on that point, but working mainly for Yui's sake isn't the same thing as being in cahoots with her, that's what I wanted to say : we know that Fuyu's sole desire is to see Yui again, like Gendo, but we don't know if he have a plan with Yui like in NGE and the manga, or is really just rolling with Gendo for the chance of seeing her again.
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Postby wiser3754 » Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:14 am

My view on Kaworu's intentions (and can somebody point this out if it's already mentioned) is that Kaworu wanted to be accepted as human amongst the LILIN. By helping Shinji reverse/fix the world he had hoped Shinji would vouch for him and the LILIN would look the other way, just like he hoped the LILIN would look the other way for Shinji.
Also, Kaworu had his chance with Mark.06 to merge with Lilith after incapacitating UNIT 01 but did nothing, he's an Angel, NERV says you're here to start 3rd impact, why aren't you doing this?
Don't take that point seriously, I'm just messing around.

And now that I've said that, my theory on the Angels are just as apparent, they wanted to merge with Lilith in the hope they could be reborn again as humans (just like the FOI). Both Bardiel and Zereul did not kill their captives (Rei was left untouched!) is suspicious and the fact that the 12th Angel wanted to escape Mark.06 and merge with EVA-13, which contained Kaworu and Shinji, only makes it more evident.

But, that's just my view so add, destroy, face palm to your heart's content.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:14 pm

Whether or not Kaworu has good intentions for Shinji ala Yui, since 1.0 I thought there was something "not right" about Kaworu. Definitely Instrumentality = Shinji's happiness (argued that point when 2.0 came out), regardless if Kaworu has his own agenda or he's following Seele's.
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Postby ElMariachi » Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:18 am

Glad to see my old topic resurrected! ^_^

For your interrogations, I'm sure that Kaworu genuinely wants Shinji's happiness : he talked about how he was eager to meet him and how this time he will bring him happiness even when he was completely alone(in Tabgha Base after SEELE-01 left and at the end of 2.0 when he was alone in Mark.06 after impaling EVA-01)

He probably was working with SEELE, because in the end both wanted HIP to happen, even if it was for different reasons(Shinji's happiness and the purification of mankinds' soul respectively)

Long explanation  SPOILER: Show
The trick is that he never explained what was Shinji's happiness, in 3.0 that was obviously to repair the world so he could atone for his sins, but before that? What did Kaworu planed for Shinji before everything had gone to hell an beyond?

There is also his behavior in 3.0 that was suspect, not because he wasn't nice, but precisely because he was nice, too nice : if there is one constant in the Evangelion franchise, it's that nothing is as good as it looks, and here we have a pure-hearted Kaworu appearing out of nowhere, immediately befriending Shinji and giving him on his laps a solution to all of his problems.
In short Kaworu was too perfect to fit in Evangelion.

And I would like to draw a parallel with his NGE counterpart : in NGE the best that could be said about Kaworu is that, as pleasant as he is, he's not functioning under the same moral compass than the Lilin, he showed a fascination for the Lilin's achievements(notably music) but was still working for SEELE, and only stopped himself when he found out that has been tricked and that the giant in Terminal Dogma wasn't ADAM, but Lilith. Then he let Shinji kill him because he tough that what SEELE truly had in mind wasn't the Lilin's destiny.

But here in Q(and Rebuild as a whole) he never acknowledged Lilin's achievements(sure he said that music was a way to communicate, but never that he loved that invention from the Lilin), and his description of HIP was cold and factual, he never expressed his opinion on the matter.

Worse yet : HIP, Gendo's plans, this blood-red world... all of this is tied to SEELE, the organization he's working for, but not once did he mentioned SEELE to Shinji, everytime he talked about Shinji to thwart someones' plans, it was NERV's(ie Gendo's). The whole time Shinji though that he was acting against NERV, completely ignoring about SEELE's existence, even though they are the ones overseeing the operation!

Also, if Kaworu wanted that much to save the Lilin with Shinji, then why didn't he joined WILLE? OK he's an Angel, but the mere fact he with WILLE would have utterly screwed SEELE's plans, and Kaworu would be right where he needed to be to greet Shinji : he don't give a ratass about piloting the Evas or fighting the Angel, all that matter to him is to meet Shinji and make him happy. Even if he's treated as a prisoner, Kaworu wouldn't give a shit as long as he gets to meet Shinji, and with 14 years and some information to bargain I'm sure that Kaworu could have gained the authorization to be with him!
And it's not like he had to stay at neo-NERV to further his plan to make Shinji happy : the extend of his plan was "we take the spears as the bad guys planned, but we keep it with us!", the rest of his time was spent playing the piano...

Talking about his plan and those famous spears : Kaworu wanted to use a Cassius and a Longinus to repair the world, OK fine. In the end he has been fucked and there was two Longinus, which threw his plan out to the windows... yet in the end, Fuyutsuki said that "nearly everything went as SEELE wanted", so even without the Cassius SEELE's HIP would have worked? Then why the fuck did they needed two spears? In 1.0 and 2.0 they planned to use Mark.06 for HIP, and it only had on seat, so could use one spear.
I know that comparisons with NGE aren't really pertinent, but the most vital component for SEELE's HIP in NGE was the Lance of Longinus, no lance = no Instrumentality.
Since in 3.0 lances were required to trigger HIP("nearly everything went as SEELE wanted", remember), logically they would have needed one for their previous plan 14 years ago, right? Since in 3.0 the presence or not of a Cassius didn't influenced SEELE's plans(again, Fuyu's comment), then we can safely assume that what was needed for HIP all along was a Longinus.

And why TWO spears now? What is different now that require two alien control rods compared to before? Are two spears really necessary, or did SEELE just need one Longinus and everything is fine for them?

So if in the end just one Longinus was needed, then even if there was a Cassius with the Longinus, HIP would have happened, except that it would have restored the landscape with it... yay...
That would have explain WILLE's actions in the movie : they didn't tried to listen to listen to Shinji, because whatever would happen, if a Longinus is used, everyone will die in HIP. And maybe that's why Asuka said that Shinji really was a little brat when he explained that with the spears he can fix the world : she understood that NERV and SEELE feed him bullshit that with the two lances he could restore the world, which is true... except that they omitted to tell him the side effect, which is HIP, and Shinji was too happy to save the world that he seemingly never stopped one second to think that this plan could be too good to be true, that there must be something fishy with this plan, in short he acted by instinct without thinking it twice, like a brat!(of course Asuka don't know that Kaworu did a masterful job to convince Shinji, going as far as to put the DSS Choker on him, not that meanwhile Gendo completely broke mentally his son to make it go with Kaworu... and continue with the plan even when Kaworu will notice that it's a trap!)



But then of course, why did Kaworu tried to stop Shinji, if everything needed in the end was a LoL?

Simple, Kaworu and SEELE had two distinct objectives : Kaworu wanted Shinji's happiness, and SEELE wanted HIP to happens. Turns out that said objectives coincide, since Kaworu thinks that Instrumentality will bring Shinji his happiness, like you said, so he's working with SEELE.
In 3.0 Shinji's happiness also included to repair the world, Shinji said so with his behavior, so Kaworu added the restoration of the world to his plans on top of HIP.

In the end there was two LoL, which means that Instrumentality would happen, but not the restoration of the world, and restoring the world is what Shinji wanted(maybe his happiness wouldn't have been complete if he still had the guilt of what he seemingly has done to the world and be unable to fix it in the end), so Kaworu dissociated himself with SEELE's plan and tried to stop everything, but Gendo had planned that outcome, and destroyed his son's sanity so he would cling to that hope no matter the cost, leaving Kaworu with no other choice than close the Door by impaling EVA-13 and killing himself and letting WILLE finish the job.

In short Gendo thwarted SEELE... by following SEELE's scenario, only changing one parameter which would make the vital element of their plan(Kaworu) not wanting to follow their scenario anymore, and by bringing WILLE to the mix so have an added insurance that even SEELE's fail-safe(Shinji) will be taken care of...


Suck it, Light Yagami. :emogendo:




TL;DR : Yes, Kaworu was someone pure, with pure intentions(Shinji's happiness), but this pureness was incompatible with the Lilin, creatures of sins and chaos(see Gendo and Fuyu's conversation while observing the 2I vortex in 2.0), and turned him into an obsessed man that would discard everything else(the rest of the Lilin) to bring Shinji his happiness(Instrumentality), to the point that he made things that Shinji would find reprehensible(siding with SEELE, working for Instrumentality) and in the end him completely miss the mark(Shinji would have never be happy by imposing Instrumentality to mankind).

And yes the parallel with how Rei describe Gendo as "pure" in the NGE2 videogame was intentional! ;)
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Postby colddice » Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:48 pm

I guess since we learn so little about Kawo in the movie you could go anywhere with his character and it has some backing. I know I had to explain to a friend he was not actually a villain since everything about him is so ambiguous. The OP does raise some interesting points. The theory that he has a "messed up" idea of bringing Shinji happiness but meant well and truly loves him would make him a lot more interesting and also sympathetic. I do want to believe he has some kind of plan and wasn't just played for a fool since the way he handled a lot of the situation was full of questionable logic.
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Postby ElMariachi » Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:16 pm

I remember reading in a dojin something very true and interesting : the scene was taking place in the red desert after the end of 3.0, Shinji fell on the ground, unable to muster to force to get up again and ceaselessly repeating Kaworu's name. Of course Asuka get fed up of his attitude and when she heard Shinji muttering Kaworu's name, she said that she read on the reports of a boy working for SEELE name Kaworu Nagisa, and concluded that she understood what happened : that he has only been used by NERV and SEELE, and that Kaworu, that "SEELE's boy", manipulated him into piloting the Eva. Shinji gets his sense backs and yells at her that he would never do something like that, that she don't have the right to speak ill of him, that she don't know anything about him.

And then Asuka simply answers : well then, what do you know about that guy? And as Shinji was unable to respond and Asuka then concluding that NERV and SEELE played a fool of him and manipulated him to their ends, it hits me that it was the truth : what does Shinji really knows about Kaworu : he love playing the piano and is skilled at it, knows Shinji very well and is always thinking about him per his own words(obsessed would be a correct description), and that he's the First or Thirteen Angel or something like that... and that's it, he doesn't know from where Kaworu is from, why he was staying in neo-NERV if he wanted to save the Lilin, why he's so obsessed by him, how is it that he knows so many things about NERV and SEELE's plans... even in NGE in the end of the single episode he appeared alive, Shinji knew more about Kaworu and his motivations than after a whole movie together!

And the story ends with a new Kaworu born(yes that story follows the theory that Kaworu is the same than in NGE and the manga) having a mini-breakdown and believing that Shinji will never be happy among the Lilin, who are always manipulating him and making him suffer, and that he will "grant wings to the one who can't become an Angel. Even though he may not want it, it's the only way to bring him happiness"...

Now considers "granting him wings" as Instrumentality, and that could very well fit the Kaworu we saw in Rebuild : unlike in NGE, not once he was seen admiring the Lilin achievement such as music or singing, the only thing close he said in Q was that a duet was like a conversation and that it was nice to create something with someone else... but even with what(if ever), Rebuild!Kaworu looked to me as someone who didn't gave a slight shit about the Lilin and was only interested in bringing Shinji is "happiness", whatever the hell that really means. In a sense, Kaworu could really be like Gendo!
Avatar: THE HIGHEST OF ALL HIGHS WE AAAAAAAAAARE!!!
Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger


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