Theory about Kaworu's intentions.

[ElMariachi]

That said, as others have noted there are a lot of variables at work here, and it's perfectly possible that Kaworu's quite sincere in his words even though his goals are anathema to Shinji's actual best interests (to say nothing of those of the greater part of humanity). We see with Shinji that it's possible to wreak havoc with the best of intentions, so it follows that, as his perfect foil/idealized self, Kaworu would do the same (albeit with more forethought and finesse). Cruel innocence and all that.

Exactly! That's exactly what I believe and try to convey!


Now I want your help for something : until now I thought that during the last conversation between Gendo and SEELE, the former was basically telling to the latter that he masterfully double-crossed them and that from now on he will do Instumentality on his own terms, and SEELE responded that they didn't care because they got what they wanted...
But I saw again the conversation and...

01:16:24 {Gendo} It is time to amend the Dead Sea Scrolls' contract.
01:16:29 {Gendo} This is farewell.
01:16:33 {Gendo} Though you have all changed the form of your souls,
01:16:37 {Gendo} you are still creatures blessed with the Fruit of Knowledge.
01:16:41 {Gendo} Though you could have lived for an eternity,
01:16:44 {Gendo} you can escape the fate of death no more than us.
01:16:50 {Gendo} To advance the evolution of the flock burdened by death,
01:16:54 {Gendo} you gave us the gift of civilization.
01:17:00 {Gendo} On behalf of humanity, I thank you.
01:17:04 {Gendo} Let death return your souls to where they belong.
01:17:12 {Gendo} The long desired Human Instrumentality Project,
01:17:15 {Gendo} and the inevitable deicide, will be completed by me.
01:17:19 {Gendo} Rest assured.
01:17:21 {Seele 01} Our wishes have come to fruition.
01:17:25 {Seele 01} Good.
01:17:26 {Seele 01} All is well now.
01:17:29 {Seele 01} We wish for Human Instrumentality, the peaceful purification of all souls.

It's me, or at absolutely no point in the conversation Gendo ever hints that he double-crossed them by somehow replacing the Cassius spear by a Longinus one, and that SEELE believed to the very end that Gendo was still following their scenario for Instrumentality?

[jackysee]

It's 諦観された to boot, which AFAIK means that the action ("resignation" or whatever) is being done TO the deicide instead of the deicide doing it. What the heck does it even mean 'to resign a deicide'?

I guess somehow my brain deformed that into being resigned to carry it out, and hence 'inevitable'.

Does 'abandoned' make sense?

[Reichu]

Does 'abandoned' make sense?

I'm not even sure how one gets "abandoned" from the original word.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

It's me, or at absolutely no point in the conversation Gendo ever hints that he double-crossed them by somehow replacing the Cassius spear by a Longinus one, and that SEELE believed to the very end that Gendo was still following their scenario for Instrumentality?

Gendo says right from the beginning that the time has come to amend their contract. He's definitely changing tack in some way, but whether this was pre-agreed or not we just don't know.

Given that Gendo openly stated to Fuyutsuki that they were going to rewrite Seele's scenario, a double cross seems obvious. But we really need to operate under the assumption that Seele are well aware of what's going on down in Dogma, and are pretty happy with it. It seems that Gendo really is going to complete the Instrumentality project.

Fuyutsuki says after 4I ends that "almost everything went according to Seele's plan". Gendo then chimes in that they eliminated "Seele's boy" and guided Eva-13 to its awakening. Note that both of these things occurred after the monolith's shut down. Whatever "double-cross" Gendo has planned seems to only focus on events after this point. And really it seems that only these two events have any real bearing on his deviation from Seele's original plan.

Gendo also mentions something cryptic about Misato, but exactly what he's referring to escapes me.

[Mbryo]

Gendo also mentions something cryptic about Misato, but exactly what he's referring to escapes me.

What? Really?

Anyway, the impression I got was that Kaworu himself did not really know what was going to happen when the spears were pulled out, and hence was unable to specifically warn Shinji of the consequences. Possibly the only orders he was given from Seele/Gendo was to retrieve the Longinus/Cassius spears from the Dogma. It seemed Kaworu only got the vague impression that something was wrong when he first saw that the spears were of the same type, and did not know that pulling the spears would result in the 12th Angel being released and Eva-13th awakening. In fact, probably everybody thought that the 12th Angel was effectively destroyed. It seems that somehow the Angel, after being driven nearly to destruction, hid inside the already dead body of Mk.06 and regenerated itself inside. The only thing keeping it from escaping was the Spear of Longinus impaling the body of Mk.06 and when that was removed (with some additional help from Mk.09), it escaped, only to be devoured by 13th.
Both Seele and Gendo probably knew about the 12th Angel and that it would be released as the result of the spears being pulled out, but apparently Kaworu was not informed, probably because they were worried that Kaworu would disobey them once he realized what was to happen. Kaworu probably never knew that the 4I impact would take place then and there, but thought only that retrieving the spears was a part of the preperation proccess.
It also seems that Seele did not realize Eva 13th was one of the 'Surviving Adams' or that it even had the ability to awaken. Gendo probably only acted he was conforming to Seele's plan because he knew that Kaworu would probably sacrifice himself to stop 4I, thus eliminating 'Seele's Boy', and to awaken Eva 13th so that it could be used for later purposes according to his plan, whatever it is. Gendo has been clearly deceiving Seele ever since he used Shinji and Rei to awaken the Shogouki. He aborted Seele's plan by eliminating both Seele's 'True Evangelion' (Mk.06) and 'Trigger' (Kaworu).
And the spears clearly have the ability to stop or control impacts, not trigger it. The absorption of an Angel by an Adam-modified Eva with (two?) pilots inside is what triggers an Impact. Kaworu probably thought his death would stop 4I. He did not realize Shinji himself also acted as a trigger, though what made him a trigger in the first place I cannot guess.

[ElMariachi]

That Gendo planned to double-cross SEELE was evident, he said it when talking to Fuyutsuki in the ruins of his office, and really I doubt any viewers could think for a second that Gendo had gone back into line of SEELE's plan for the HIP.
What I mean is that during their last conversation, when Fuyu "killed" them, it seems that at no point during his farewell speech Gendo hints that he double-crossed SEELE, and that the latter died thinking that Gendo was still following their plans.

Gendo also mentions something cryptic about Misato, but exactly what he's referring to escapes me.

He said that her actions are "within expectations", meaning that Gendo included the possibility of WILLE try to interfere with EVA-13(and probably even counted on it as a additional guarantee that 4I will be stopped), in short it's Gendo doing a Light Yagami-esque "all according to the plan".


As for Kaworu, on the contrary I think that he knew that the 12th Angel was alive and that EVA-13 was going to be awakened : the plan he sold to Shinji was to take the two spears, keep them for them and use them to repair the world(at least that's how Shinji understood it).
As you said, the spears control and stop Impacts, and optionally they are a great anti-Angel weapon, but that's all they are, it was never remotely hinted that a spear can trigger an Impact. Besides, seeing how fucked up the world is currently, "repairing it" necessarily means a gigantic terraforming process, and the only thing we saw that had terraforming powers are the Impacts.
And the only know entity that can open the Door of Guf and start an Impact are a "godly being", meaning one of the four ADAMs when they were at their maximum power("Giant of Light") or a fully awakened Evangelion, like EVA-01 if its not one of the 4 ADAMs itself.
Following that train of though, it was impossible for Kaworu to not know that he would have to awaken EVA-13 to harness the power to "fix the world". And as the ten precedent Angel has been dealt with(Kaworu being the First), he must have know that the 12th was still inside Mark.06, awaiting to be freed. The only thing that had gone wrong is the fact that the spears are two of the same, and somehow that thwart his plans and SEELE's, if you look again at the scene after the spears are pulled, everyone is surprised that the 12th Angel is still alive... except Kaworu(and ReiQ, but she don't count), we see Asuka and Shinji freaking out when their radar detect the blue blood pattern of the 12th, but not Kaworu, he sould have been also surprised to discover that Gendo also managed to hide a living Angel from him... unless he already knew that.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

It also seems that Seele did not realize Eva 13th was one of the 'Surviving Adams' or that it even had the ability to awaken.

But Seele were the ones who constructed Mark.06 on the moon. Again, I'm inclined to think that, up to their deactivation, Seele know almost everything that's going on. Whatever double-cross Gendo is pulling seems to come after the monoliths go silent.

The only thing that had gone wrong is the fact that the spears are two of the same, and somehow that thwart his plans and SEELE's, if you look again at the scene after the spears are pulled, everyone is surprised that the 12th Angel is still alive... except Kaworu(and ReiQ, but she don't count), we see Asuka and Shinji freaking out when their radar detect the blue blood pattern of the 12th, but not Kaworu, he sould have been also surprised to discover that Gendo also managed to hide a living Angel from him... unless he already knew that.

That's a good point. Going back to prior discussions, it seems likely that Kaworu knew that the 12th Angel was alive. Only the spears seem to have perturbed him. In fact, he seems to be well aware of what occurs after the spears are pulled as well.

Perhaps Gendo's double cross is simply this: He's switched out a spear. That's it.

Kaworu and Shinji are miles below Headquarters. Even Asuka and Mari seem unable to communicate with Wille from such a distance. It's possible that Seele, like Kaworu before he descended, are blissfully unaware that there is no Spear of Cassius in Lilith's chamber. In fact, the only signal Gendo seems to receive about what's going on in the chamber is when Lilith's head explodes.

So perhaps radio communication simply cannot reach HQ, and Seele really are in the dark. In fact, later on Asuka claims that L particle density in the core desert is too high and they cannot be picked up. If the particle density is high in the regions surrounding Tokyo-3, then it's probably so high in the chamber that radio comms and sensors of all kinds simply do not work in the chamber. That would explain why Seele seem so happy with what's going on, despite their "boy" Kaworu being aware of extreme technical difficulties.

I'm going off track here, but this is interesting, so lets see where this new assumption leads us.

[Mbryo]

Another thought: didn't Kaworu say to Shinji something about claiming the spears for themselves?
What if Kaworu was trying to double-cross NERV/Seele from the start? What if Kaworu was disobeying (or at least he thought so) Seele by claiming the spears for Shinji and himself? If I'm remembering correctly that particular dialogue, it sounded suspiciously like Kaworu was plotting something for Shinji against Seele/Gendo's wishes. But if so, both Gendo apparently knew Kaworu was up to from the beginning and had already manufactured a clever trap in which Kaworu would have to blow himself up to save the world............

[Bagheera]

So perhaps radio communication simply cannot reach HQ, and Seele really are in the dark. In fact, later on Asuka claims that L particle density in the core desert is too high and they cannot be picked up. If the particle density is high in the regions surrounding Tokyo-3, then it's probably so high in the chamber that radio comms and sensors of all kinds simply do not work in the chamber. That would explain why Seele seem so happy with what's going on, despite their "boy" Kaworu being aware of extreme technical difficulties.

We know that's not true since Mari gets info on the blue pattern inside the 13th's entry plug. There's no way she could get that information if sensors and comms both weren't operative. Also, Mari and Asuka communicated via comm at several points.

Past that, the question of how Gendo would switch out a spear, let alone keep it quiet for all this time, is a thorny one. I'm inclined to believe the Spear changed its form on its own, and that Gendo was aware of this while the others weren't. They why of that question is also tricky, but handwaving knowledge is easier than handwaving action that would require an Eva to manage (and that's leaving aside the Impact issues swapping out the Spears might entail).

[riffraff11235]

They why of that question is also tricky, but handwaving knowledge is easier than handwaving action that would require an Eva to manage (and that's leaving aside the Impact issues swapping out the Spears might entail).

Couldn't he have gotten Rei to do it with the Mark.09? Would be a nice parallel to Rei retrieving the Spear of Longinus from Lilith in NGE.

[Bagheera]

Couldn't he have gotten Rei to do it with the Mark.09? Would be a nice parallel to Rei retrieving the Spear of Longinus from Lilith in NGE.

She would have to get in there, swap the Spears, get out, reseal it, and do it all without anyone finding out what was going on. That seems . . . unlikely.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

If Gendo did switch the spears, or modify the Spear of Cassius in some way, he likely would have done so before the Mark.06 was sent down to Lilith's chamber.

We know that's not true since Mari gets info on the blue pattern inside the 13th's entry plug. There's no way she could get that information if sensors and comms both weren't operative. Also, Mari and Asuka communicated via comm at several points.

Short range communications and light still work as intended, but long range communications are probably impeded. See also: Mobile Suit Gundam.

[Bagheera]

If Gendo did switch the spears, or modify the Spear of Cassius in some way, he likely would have done so before the Mark.06 was sent down to Lilith's chamber.

Then how is it nobody knows of it? I kinda doubt no one noticed that a different Spear was used to impale the Mark 06.

Short range communications and light still work as intended, but long range communications are probably impeded. See also: Mobile Suit Gundam.

Yeah, no. Unless the show tells us something like that is at work it's a bad idea to fanwank it in.

[ElMariachi]

She would have to get in there, swap the Spears, get out, reseal it, and do it all without anyone finding out what was going on. That seems . . . unlikely.

Well, Asuka and Mari infiltrating Lilith's Chamber by a crack in the Black Moon structure(and later going back up to assist the Wunder) is a proof that there is other entries to the chamber than the "lid".
Gendo would have sent ReiQ on a random mission against WILLE, and privately ordered her that once the mission was over, instead of going back to the altar, she go to Lilith's Camber and swap the Lance of Cassius by a Longinus that he will provide her...
Of course the question then would be haw he managed to bring a spear of Longinus to Mark.09 without SEELE or Kaworu noticing, or where the hell did Gendo found said spear...

Another thought: didn't Kaworu say to Shinji something about claiming the spears for themselves?

Yep, he said :

01:02:45 {Kaworu} We should take those Spears for ourselves.

What if Kaworu was trying to double-cross NERV/Seele from the start? What if Kaworu was disobeying (or at least he thought so) Seele by claiming the spears for Shinji and himself? If I'm remembering correctly that particular dialogue, it sounded suspiciously like Kaworu was plotting something for Shinji against Seele/Gendo's wishes. But if so, both Gendo apparently knew Kaworu was up to from the beginning and had already manufactured a clever trap in which Kaworu would have to blow himself up to save the world............[/quote]
... except that just after his line above, he added :

01:02:48 {Kaworu} That way, Nerv can no longer trigger the Fourth Impact,

He brings Shinji into a plan to thwart NERV(=Gendo) and not SEELE, as he never mentioned their existence to Shinji, even if they are the guys behind absolutely everything.


While I'm on it, I think I found another instance of Kaworu's subtle manipulation of Shinji, or at least a way to really motivate him to put every ounce and fiber of his being into the plan :

Back during his speech when he showed Shinji the aftermath of 3I(definitely this is a scene very heavy with potentially hidden meanings) :

00:52:31 {Kaworu} There's nothing you can do about your past.
00:52:35 {Kaworu} This is the truth you desired to know.
00:52:38 {Kaworu} As a result, the Lilin are letting you pay for your sin.
00:52:43 {Kaworu} That's what the thing on your neck is, no?
00:52:48 {Shinji} What sin?
00:52:50 {Shinji} I didn't do anything!
00:52:52 {Shinji} I had nothing to do with it!
00:52:54 {Kaworu} You may deny it, but humanity thinks otherwise.
00:52:58 {Kaworu} However, no sin is beyond redemption.
00:53:02 {Kaworu} There is always hope.
00:53:04 {Kaworu} Always.

What he's essentially saying is that there is nothing Shinji can do against his past actions, and that even if he's frantically denying that he had anything to do with this(probably because he didn't had any clue of what was happening), humanity(and with them WILLE an so Misato, Asuka...) think otherwise and are punishing him for it, whether Shinji feels like he deserves it or no... but there is always hope for redemption.

Now fast forward when he told him about his plan with the spears :

01:02:34 {Kaworu} Ikari Shinji-kun, your only hope lies with the two Spears left at the Impact epicenter in Dogma.

That's pretty straightforward about what's a stake personally for Shinji!
Lets recapitulate what essentially Kaworu told to Shinji : 14 years ago 3I happened and the world got wrecked, it was initiated by Shinji, and even if he frantically deny having anything to do with it, humanity think otherwise and his punishing him for it(Ritsuko even specifically used that word and added that they don't trust him, meaning aren't giving him any benefit of the doubt), and no amount of denying will change that, but there is a way to make up for it and get his redemption, only one way("your only hope") and its by coming with Kaworu and retrieve the two spears.
Kaworu probably wanted Shinji to be completely focused on this quest, whatever could happen, even if his ex-friends of WILLE intervene, after all once everything is over they will all thank him so any harm did before to attain the spears are inconsequential. And his strategy tragically turned against Kaworu when it turned out that he has been tricked and then he tried to stop a frenzied and unstoppable Shinji.

Now I'm not saying that Shinji is totally blameless either, when Kaworu told him to stop after Asuka ended without battery, Shinji could have just stopped one minute and ask Kaworu what he meant that those spears aren't the one they came from and what course of action he could suggest since apparently it's his "only hope" to get redemption, the other alternative being to incur the hate and punishment of the Lilin for the rest of his life. A shame he didn't tried this, it would have been interesting to see what Kaworu would have responded.

[Bagheera]

Well, Asuka and Mari infiltrating Lilith's Chamber by a crack in the Black Moon structure(and later going back up to assist the Wunder) is a proof that there is other entries to the chamber than the "lid".

Do we know this is how they got in? I always figured they came in the same way Unit 13 did.

Gendo would have sent ReiQ on a random mission against WILLE, and privately ordered her that once the mission was over, instead of going back to the altar, she go to Lilith's Camber and swap the Lance of Cassius by a Longinus that he will provide her...
Of course the question then would be haw he managed to bring a spear of Longinus to Mark.09 without SEELE or Kaworu noticing, or where the hell did Gendo found said spear...

Yeah. We can contrive all sorts of ways to swap the Spears, but the real issue is how to do it without anyone else noticing.

[Jornophelanthas]

I have a question about the following sentence by Kaworu.

00:52:54 {Kaworu} You may deny it, but humanity thinks otherwise.

What is the literal meaning of the word that is translated as "humanity" here?

The reason I am asking this is because some Evangelion continuities use an unconventional definition of "humanity". Recall that both Angels and Lilin are considered to be "humans" in EoE. Therefore, I want to know if Kaworu's quote here could imply that he is referring to not just WILLE, but also the Angels he represents (and himself).

I am not sure if this will lead anywhere, but I am interested in hearing what the members of this board could come up with in interpreting Kaworu's intentions based on such an interpretation.

[ElMariachi]

Do we know this is how they got in? I always figured they came in the same way Unit 13 did.

Well, the crack where Mari's sniper nest is has climbing gear installed, containers for Asuka and what looks like a giant fighter jet... I really doubt Asuka and Mari came just behind EVA-13 and Mark.09, had gone to the crack climbing horizontally like Spiderman, installed their gear in seconds and then attacked, all of this without being noticed, more so that Mark.09 was deployed specifically to cover EVA-13 and warn them of any WILLE activity! Mari and Asuka are good, but not THAT good!

In fact, by the look of it, it looks like actually Mari and Asuka arrived before EVA-13 and Mark.09 by passing through the big crack, settled their gear and waited in ambush for them to come!

Yeah. We can contrive all sorts of ways to swap the Spears, but the real issue is how to do it without anyone else noticing.

Well, between Kaworu spending his time playing piano and thinking about Shinji and SEELE staying in their room and completely mute, it looks like Gendo had some room for maneuver. Maybe he behaved for the past 14 years, which made SEELE and Kaworu unbridle him more and more with the passing years, to the point that he could have put a stunt like swapping the spears. For all we know Gendo could have ordered ReiQ to do the swapping at the same time that she had gone to retrieve Shinji from the Wunder!

[xdiesp]

I would like to point out something about Kaworu and his idea that you cannot redo\repeat the past. From The Great Gatsby:

"I wouldn’t ask too much of her," I ventured. "You can’t repeat the past."

"Can’t repeat the past?" he cried incredulously. "Why of course you can!"

He looked around him wildly, as if the past were lurking here in the shadow of his house, just out of reach of his hand.

"I’m going to fix everything just the way it was before," he said, nodding determinedly. "She’ll see."

[Reichu]

What is the literal meaning of the word that is translated as "humanity" here?

It's tanin, "other people"/"others". "Humanity" probably isn't the best choice.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

So, does Kaworu only _think_ that Wille put the choker on because they thought Shinji was responsible for 3I, or does he actually know for certain that a large percentage of humanity thinks Shinji is responsible?