Theory about Kaworu's intentions.

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Postby airman4 » Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:57 pm

Yep , not bad
Interesting if kaworu manipulating Shinji and all


But

why stop the 4th impact then
why putting the collar knowuing he gonna to die ? (okay , maybe seele have a ton of kaworu too)
why being suprised when discover the identical lances (he was faking it ?)

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Postby Zoop » Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:26 am

View Original Postairman4 wrote:Yep , not bad
Interesting if kaworu manipulating Shinji and all


But

why stop the 4th impact then
why putting the collar knowuing he gonna to die ? (okay , maybe seele have a ton of kaworu too)
why being suprised when discover the identical lances (he was faking it ?)


If kaworu was activally manipulating sinji, then it was according to Seele's plan, but 4th impact pretty much went the way Gendo wanted, whatever was going to happen wasn't what kaworu wished for sinji hence "This isn't the happiness you wanted".

I think Kaworu really just cares about Shinji and not about anything else at all. Much like how Shinji acted when he saves Rei. The rest can get to hell, if just Rei could be saved.
I think Koworu's mindset is pretty much the same, willing to sacrifice everything (including himself) to make Shinji happy.
Apparantly Kaworu has had this love for him long before they met (in this universe). So I'd say ElMariachi's post is pretty much spot on.
Last edited by Zoop on Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:50 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby ElMariachi » Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:32 am

Kaworu stopped 4I because he didn't just wanted Instrumentality for Shinji, he also wanted him to become a hero who restored the Earth before instrumentality happens, if not Shinji will feel cheated and could reject Instrumentality like in EoE. And restoring the Earth could only be done with the Lance of Cassius. In my theory, Kaworu is only working for SEELE because their objectives coincide(SEELE want HIP, Kaworu wants to bring Shinji happiness and thinks that HIP is the solution for that), the moment there was two LoL, meaning no restoration of the world, that wouldn't give Shinji his happiness, and Kaworu's and SEELE's objective came to a fracture : when everything was settled, Fuyutsuki commented that "nearly everything went as SEELE wanted", meaning that SEELE only needed a LoL to bring HIP, and didn't cared if Kaworu plays with a LoC at the same time, as long as there is at least one LoL used to launch HIP.

He put the collar to gain Shinji's trust, to prove him that he really wants what's best for him instead of seeing him as a pawn to use and discard once used, and also because nonetheless something could turn wrong and it the whole process has to be stopped, better that Kaworu is the one to sacrifice himself than Shinji. Coincidentally that means that Kaworu knew that past a certain point EVA-13 would be unstoppable and beyond their control, and that he probably knew that once the spears will be removed, the thing will get on auto-pilot and there would be nothing he or Shinji could do to stop the process, short of impaling EVA-13 and getting rid of the pilots(by ejecting or dying)

He was surprised because he genuinely thought that he would find a LoC and a LoL in Lilith's Chamber, and understood that Gendo screwed him, SEELE and Shinji. And that because of that, he will have to disappoint Shinji by telling him that the plan failed, even thought Shinji is on the edge of madness and that this plan HE proposed as a salvation, guaranteeing to make Shinji suffer and despair even more. And Gendo's manipulation made it backfire even more violently when he decided to screw logic and reason and pull the spears nonetheless.
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Postby wiser3754 » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:48 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:
He put the collar to gain Shinji's trust, to prove him that he really wants what's best for him instead of seeing him as a pawn to use and discard once used, and also because nonetheless something could turn wrong and it the whole process has to be stopped, better that Kaworu is the one to sacrifice himself than Shinji. Coincidentally that means that Kaworu knew that past a certain point EVA-13 would be unstoppable and beyond their control, and that he probably knew that once the spears will be removed, the thing will get on auto-pilot and there would be nothing he or Shinji could do to stop the process, short of impaling EVA-13 and getting rid of the pilots(by ejecting or dying)


I thought kaworu was going to take the Choker at some point off Shinji whether he was sleeping or awake. He also points out while telling Shinji that he will carry the burden of the LILIN's curse and mentioning that the collar was designed specifically for him. He also assures Shinji should anything go awry or EVA-13 awakening, the Choker will be the fail-safe.

Honestly to me, what Kaworu says to Shinji and his actions to restore the world back to the way it was only says one thing to me, "I started Third Impact actual", he's an Angel, that's what they do, and I think they succeeded terra-forming the world so the "Fruit of Life" can prosper, only for Kaworu to throw a wrench in the clockwork of NEO-Nerv and Seele's scenario at the last minute before HIP can move forward. I guess that's why Gendo wanted him out of the picture, Kaworu clearly goes against the wishes of SEELE and NERV when he and Shinji go renegade so I believe Kaworu clearly went rogue during or shortly after Lilith's awakening.

By the way, does anyone believe that Kaworu may have had control over Mark.06 during the merging process between it and Lilith, as he clearly has control over EVA-13 when he impales it with the lances, which subsequently leads to his death as he uses more of his Angel powers to do this which leads to the Choker priming itself faster (the prisms get larger and they go faster during the impalement, but correct me if I'm wrong)?

The only reason I'm asking is that when Kaworu sees the Mark.06 in its current condition (merged and impaled) he's not surprised at all, only that the Lance has changed seems to distract him. Remodeled to be Autonomous may have not been so Autonomous, I feel like Kaworu just lies to Shinji the whole time (looking away, closing his eyes, the mortified look when he tells Shinji that "nothing good comes from replaying your old memories" which is why he plays the piano to drown out bad memories).
I watch and speculate.

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Postby ElMariachi » Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:44 pm

Hey, your comment about Kaworu controlling Mark.06 and the possibility that he may have been the one who trigger 3I proper made me thought of an important detail : Kaworu said that two souls were needed to hold two spears, so logically one soul should be needed to wield one spear, right?

But if Mark.06 was remodeled as an "autonomous type", then how did it managed to use the LoC against Lilith?

We saw space shuttles transporting it in 2.0 while it was still in the moon, so I suppose that what Kaworu meant that a soul was needed to activate the abilities of a spear, and stopping a god on its track like what Kaworu did at the end of 2.0 looks like one of these special abilities.

So how the hell the "automated" Mark.06 managed to wield and activate the spear to use it against Lilith?
Worst, Kaworu talked about the two souls needed to use a spear just after saying that Mark.06 was remodeled as an autonomous unit.

I don't think that the fact that two seemingly contradictory pieces of information were said just one after the other was mere coincidence... it looks like Kaworu being the one who piloted Mark.06 14 years ago is a very real possibility.

And like wiser3754 noticed, that would also explain how he wasn't surprised to see Mark.06 impaled and was only distracted b the fact that the LoC became a LoL... like he actually was here when it happened how knew exactly how was the place when he left it.

It could be that Kaworu triggered 3I, voluntarily or by accident, and hided his participation in it to Shinji so that he would hate him and realize that he actually had nothing to do with this blood-red world, which could prompt him to ditch Kaworu and try to come back to WILLE instead of agreeing to descent to Lilith's Chamber with him and use the two spears, the path for his happiness that he designed specially for him.


View Original Postwiser3754 wrote:Honestly to me, what Kaworu says to Shinji and his actions to restore the world back to the way it was only says one thing to me, "I started Third Impact actual", he's an Angel, that's what they do, and I think they succeeded terra-forming the world so the "Fruit of Life" can prosper, only for Kaworu to throw a wrench in the clockwork of NEO-Nerv and Seele's scenario at the last minute before HIP can move forward. I guess that's why Gendo wanted him out of the picture, Kaworu clearly goes against the wishes of SEELE and NERV when he and Shinji go renegade so I believe Kaworu clearly went rogue during or shortly after Lilith's awakening.

Since Fuyutsuk and Gendo kept calling him "SEELE's boy", I think that whatever happened Kaworu didn't betrayed SEELE, or at least they didn't noticed. What happened 14 years ago that left the world in the state it's in 3.0 looks more like a freak accident no one planned.
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Postby wiser3754 » Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:58 am

Here's a good question, if it's already been discussed point it out so it doesn't spill into another tangent.

Kaworu is awakened by SEELE commenting "that the boy down there has awoken" after Shinji rescues Rei, in the truth that Shinji is seeking in 3.0 he tells Kaworu "I only wanted to save Ayanami", Kaworu knows about Shinji's relationship with Rei and yet he knows ReiQ is just an imitation but he doesn't tell Shinji when they're outside. Why?
Besides Fuyutsuki spilling the beans to Shinji about the Ayanami series, why wouldn't Kaworu had just gotten that out the way before then?

Slightly off topic, those crosses outside of NervHQ weren't they created when Zereul came marching into town, they're clearly there (except they're red or pink) although as Shinji is on a train heading to a shelter, he doesn't notice them as his head is on his knees away from the window.
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Postby monitoradiation » Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:48 pm

View Original Postwiser3754 wrote:Kaworu is awakened by SEELE commenting "that the boy down there has awoken" after Shinji rescues Rei, in the truth that Shinji is seeking in 3.0 he tells Kaworu "I only wanted to save Ayanami", Kaworu knows about Shinji's relationship with Rei and yet he knows ReiQ is just an imitation but he doesn't tell Shinji when they're outside. Why?

Besides Fuyutsuki spilling the beans to Shinji about the Ayanami series, why wouldn't Kaworu had just gotten that out the way before then?


If you were Kaworu, would you tell Shinji that the one thing that he thought he did (saving Rei) was in fact a failure, and that he might've doomed Rei to a fate worse than death because now she's stuck eternally in an immortal monster?
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Postby ElMariachi » Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:14 am

View Original Postwiser3754 wrote:Kaworu is awakened by SEELE commenting "that the boy down there has awoken" after Shinji rescues Rei, in the truth that Shinji is seeking in 3.0 he tells Kaworu "I only wanted to save Ayanami", Kaworu knows about Shinji's relationship with Rei and yet he knows ReiQ is just an imitation but he doesn't tell Shinji when they're outside. Why?
Besides Fuyutsuki spilling the beans to Shinji about the Ayanami series, why wouldn't Kaworu had just gotten that out the way before then?

Like monitoradiation said, to no make Shinji suffer even more : remember that he didn't told him about the devastation around Tokyo-3 either : it has to be Shinji who asked him to know what happened(thanks to a "oh so conveniently" appearing shirt belonging to Toji) to make him reveal the truth, and when he asked, Kaworu lost his pleasant smile and have a grave look on his face, before asking him if he really want to know.
It's clear that he didn't wanted to show him that to spare him the despair that would come with the truth, but since he can't say no to Shinji when he directly asks him something(he loves Shinji too much and losing his trust is his biggest fear), he complied. But since Shinji didn't asked about Rei, Kaworu didn't tell anything about the subject, as it would just twist the knife even more.
Which is why Fuyutsuki intervened soon after to bring the second big bomb that would completely shatter his mind and make sure that he will be so desperate for atonement that he will cling to the plan with the spears no matter what happen, like Gendo screwing with them and having morphed the LoC into a LoL!

When you think about it, the timing of Kozo's revelation was also perfect : just after Kaworu showed him the outside, and just before EVA-13 is completed the morning after:

  • one morning, out of the blue, Toji's shirt is sent to Shinji's room, which push him to finally confront his fear and seek out the truth of what happened -> later that morning, he asks Kaworu to show it to him, cue the panorama to Lovecraftland

  • Shinji spends the rest of the day and the night trying to cope with what he did(I highly doubt he was in the mood for a piano session after that), and come with the coping thought that at least he saved Rei and that it was the right thing to do, to save someone you care about, right?

  • the day after, Shinji don't come for his daily piano session, Kaworu thinks that he still need sometime to recover from yesterday's shock, but that's okay : EVA-13 is almost complete, you just rest Shinji-kun and soon, everything will be over! But what Kaworu didn't know is that instead of resting in his room, Shinji is playing a game of Shogi with Kozo, who shattering what's remain of Shinji's mental stability with a sledgehammer. Shinji's mental health is now catastrophic, all his hopes are shattered, he spent yet another sleepless night. His mental state is now critical.

  • EVA-13 is finished! The promised time is finally here! Kaworu is happy :
    SPOILER: Show
    [wkimg]Eva3-33 C0909 thisisit.jpg[/wkimg]

    after so many years he will finally be able to bring Shinji his happiness! But... what the hell?! Why is Shinji's state even worse than two days go?! He was supposed to get slightly better, to absorb the shock of what he saw! What? He didn't saved Ayanami? Gendo, your bastard, Shinji didn't needed to know that! But there is no time to go to complain to him, or even to let Shinji time to cool off : the promised time is here, and WILLE could lose its patience and launch an offensive at any moment! He must convince Shinji to come with him, to trust him, no matter how, it's for Shinji-kun's sake! So with desperate times come desperate measure : Kaworu decide to put directly his life on the line and take off the DSS Choker from Shinji to put it on him, effectively snapping Shinji out of his BSOD... and unknowingly closing the maws of Gendo's trap around him and Shinji!

So in the end, Toji's shirt came at just the right moment so Shinji wouldn't had any time to rest and recuperate from the successive shocks of Kaworu's and later Kozo's revelations, so his mind would be stressed to the maximum before complete breakdown... still think that Gendo has nothing to do with the shirt's appearance?

---

Anyway back on topic : your observation proves that Kaworu is not above hiding the truth to Shinji if he deems it's better for him that way. In that sense, he's the polar opposite of Asuka, who doesn't go easy on him and tell him the truth right on his face, be it painful or not, whether he want to hear it or not.
Compare both reaction to Shinji triggering 4I :

- Kaworu : it's not your fault Shinji-kun, it's me who become the 13th Angel, I was the trigger. But everything will be okay, now you need to find somewhere to find peace, everything will be okay.

- Asuka : you've been a brat Shinji, you only though about yourself when you embarked in that retarded plan of yours, not listening to anyone and thinking that you'll get away after the fact if you don't say anything... and no I'm not gonna let you comfortably sulk in a corner to wait for death, you're going with me whether you like it or not!

Now let's see which approach the franchise considers as the good one. And since Q illustrated so well the saying that "knowledge is power", in the sense that Shinji wouldn't had been so easily manipulated had WILLE had enough time to explain to him everything before Mark.09 attacked, and WILLE can be a threat to Gendo and SEELE because they know a lot about ADAMs, Impacts and all these things, I get the feeling that the angry German way is the correct one, after all life is hard and painful no matter how you sugarcoat it, but the hard truth and reality is the only path to true happiness, that was the lesson of EoE!


View Original Postwiser3754 wrote:Slightly off topic, those crosses outside of NervHQ weren't they created when Zereul came marching into town, they're clearly there (except they're red or pink) although as Shinji is on a train heading to a shelter, he doesn't notice them as his head is on his knees away from the window.

No, Zeruel's crosses were just energy blasts which fades with time, besides in the post-3I landscape there is too much crosses which go too far to be Zeruel's doing : all his blasts were aimed at the portion of Tokyo-3 above the Geofront, the same portion that was gutted open by N3I, while the crosses from the post-3I landscape are present as far as in the horizon!
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Postby Stillborn » Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:38 am

But if life is hard and painful no matter how you sugarcoat it, doesn't it mean that happiness is merely supreficial and false since its only a sugarcoat? And the truth about life sucking serves no purpose other to make someone miserable, if you have no answer or solution how to counteract that. And that's what Asuka is doing. She tells Shinji all this as an act of spite to make him suffer for not living up to her expectations raher than to make him better. Just look at how many people gets pissed at me when I'm telling them life sucks :tongue:
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Postby pwhodges » Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:31 am

View Original PostStillborn wrote:And that's what Asuka is doing. She tells Shinji all this as an act of spite to make him suffer for not living up to her expectations rather than to make him better.

And yet she takes him with her at the end - why? - to do precisely that, perhaps (as the preview following suggests - he finds hope). The story is not yet finished, and should not be judged as a complete story.

View Original PostStillborn wrote:life sucks

Well yes, maybe it does - but there's so much more to it than just that. Like Asuka carting Shinji off, you could be looking for future possibilities for change.
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Postby Stillborn » Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:43 am

I'm looking for future possibilities. But with the foundations I have all possibilities look bleak. Also the most like reason Asuka takes him is that it's to hazardous to leave him and/or he may have a value to WILLE as an information source or even a lab rat. I highly doubt it's for his sake. Rather it's to drag him through this shit world as an act of vengance.

But this is Kaworu's thread and once again I got off topic :facepalm:
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Postby ElMariachi » Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:26 am

@ Stillborn : Going back to the sugarcoating business, I may have expressed myself wrong : what I meant with "life is hard and painful" is not that life is only made of hardships and pain, but that it's a part of it as well as happiness, and that you can't pretend that the bad parts don't exist.

Of course we can understand Kaworu's reasons for trying to hide the truth from Shinji, since it would make him greatly suffer, but since Shinji asked him to tel him what happened, he should have been completely honest and tell him that Rei isn't the girl that piloted Mark.09, but is still trapped inside EVA-01. Sure that would have made pained Shinji even more, but at least Fuyutsuki couldn't have used that as a button to crush him even more, and Shinji could had beneficed of a day to rest instead of being destroyed by Fuyu's shogi game.
Although it's also possible that Gendo would had simply found something else to crush his son's sanity...
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Postby Stillborn » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:21 am

We don't know what level of access Kaworu had in the facility. Gendo obviously didn't trusted him, so we don't know if there were areas Kaworu wasn't authorized to enter.

He may not have access to the room where Shinji played shogi with Fuyu. Kaworu may assumed that Rei is very touchy topic with Shinji and without proof it would be bad to open that can of worms. He was able to show him surroundings as a result of Impact be he may not been able to prove to him that this is not his Rei, without access to the room with clone heads.

Just telling Shinji something like that without actually having proof for that may have put Shinji into uncertain nervous state that would be eating him as time passes. So Kaworu telling him about Rei may not change anything in the outcome.
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Postby ElMariachi » Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:37 am

Kaworu was the First Angel, I doubt that there was somewhere in the HQ he couldn't access if he wanted to, especially if he had the same powers than his NGE counterpart.

He probably just didn't know that Shinji was with Fuyutsuki on the second day : he probably assumed that Shinji was resting and recuperating from the shock of the previous day, and that Fuyu and Gendo won't bother to interact with him as long as he will pilot with Kaworu. Of course, he didn't know that Gendo had his own plans, which involved Shinji.

And I think that Kaworu could have proved to Shinji that Rei Q isn't "his" Rei : Shinji trust Kaworu, and the world has gone so insane(just take a look outside!) that nothing should be considered impossible anymore, he just had to tell the truth to Shinji about Rei, tell him to ask to Rei Q things only know of Shinji and Rei II, like what he told him to do when he saved her at the end of 1.0, or what place did they visited alongside Asuka, Toji and Kensuke, or what she did during the fight against Zeruel to try to stop him... after enough "Shiranai", it will become clear to Shinji that the Rei he has inf ront of him is not the one from 14 years ago.
And if he's still not convinced, Kaworu could always bring him to the rom with the wall of severed Rei heads(he could hack into the DSS Choker just by touching it, so I doubt that an electronic lock on a door will present much of a challenge to him)

And as I said, we can't really blame him for not wanting to twist the knife even further, even if in the end it would have been better that Shinji learned the whole truth as soon as possible in light of what Kozo and Gendo had planned for him, Kaworu didn't knew that they had any personal plans with Shinji, and thus didn't see the need to tell him about the Ayanami series.

Still, the point that Kaworu wasn't above hiding things from Shinji if he deemed that he don't need to know, which show us that he's not a beacon of purity and means that he could also have hided other things to Shinji because he deemed that he don't need to know, like the existence of SEELE(who are Gendo's bosses and the masterminds behind HIP, not a little detail!), or what exactly where the two different spears going to do, so that he would understand why having two of the same completely screwed their plan(did the plans with two spears have a side-effect that Kaworu didn't tell to Shinji, like that it would trigger HIP? After all apparently SEELE only needed the LoL to launch their version of it)
Last edited by ElMariachi on Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby oneman » Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:21 am

kaworu reaction to unexpected

SPOILER: Show


He's looking at the lances. He's experiencing something new: doubt. For the first time he doesn't know.
Wille suddendly attacks.
He does nothing, just keep thinking. What he knows during the fight is that nothing important can go on without his actions.

kaworu understands



now he understands

Eva-13 is a dual entry type. Cassius and Longinus require two different kind of souls, but now Kaworu can't decide anything about 4th impact because his lance is missing. He's only a emergency power supply. His role was to take Shinji there, but now he's doing it for the "wrong" purpose.

kaworu reaction to Shinji intenctions

SPOILER: Show
Image


clearly it's a human reaction "oh god, I made a such big mistake, I failed, I really can (not) redo"
And then he choose to die, closing the door of guf, to let to Shinji a little possibility in the future.
Now let's do a recap because there's sothing wrong: let's assume Kaworu was sincerely good, and I think he really was due to his non-human nature.
He wants Shinji to pilot, so he takes the dss choker. He knows what the dss is, a device intended for humans. Well at this point, kaworu's plan was:
1. go down
2. take the lances togheter
3. do some kind of impact for Shinji
4. the dss is ineffective on me, so we can't fail, I can't die, the impact can't be stopped

If the dss can kill kaworu and stop the impact without his willingness... well he would be just stupid.
He made suffer Shinji for nothing, he can't repair his error, he take the responsibility and do the only thing he thinks could stop the 4I.

In the end he choose to die, because he think this will stop the impact, but we discover that his knowledge is limited and he has not influence on the events.
Even Kaworu, a near-god, is defeated, and his sacrifice is useless

my 2cents, sorry for bad english
try

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Postby ElMariachi » Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:56 am

^
(late reply is late)
Kaworu probably knew that impaling EVA-13 and dying won't stop Fourth Impact because of Shinji's presence, he's the most knowledgeable person about everything Impact and Angel related, and he probably also knew that his sacrifice would weaken EVA-13 enough to make it fall and come into reach of WILLE's Evas, who then will be able to extract Shinji's entry plug and finish the job, which they exactly did!


Now I want to copy something Reichu and Th3Marauder's posts in the Door of Guf thread made me realize, it's about about Kaworu's speech to Shinji when he told him what happened 14 years ago :
Kaworu wrote:Ikari Shinji-kun, once Awakened, Eva-01 opened the Door of Guf and became the trigger for Third Impact.
Lilin call it Near Third Impact. It was all initiated by you.

By "all initiated by you", of which event he's talking about?

First idea would be that EVA-01 awoke, opened the Door which launched Third Impact(everything we saw in 2.0, except that it obliterated everything), but the Lilin called the event Near Third Impact instead of Third Impact since part of humanity survived... meaning that while Kaworu calls the event Third Impact, the Lilin calls it Near Third Impact.


But the Lilin uses both terms, Third Impact and NTE :

When Shinji arrives in the Wunder's Command Bridge at the beginning of the movie, Ritsuko talks about Near Third Impact :
00:09:37 {Ritsuko} Post-natal dental work and body composition perfectly match those from Near Third Impact.



And later when Asuka is fighting Shinji in Lilith's Chamber, she talks about Third Impact, at multiple times :
01:10:04 {Asuka} You brat, Shinji!
01:10:05 {Asuka} Are you trying to cause Third Impact again?


01:14:40 {Asuka} We'll take care of this before Third Impact starts up again!

And since she's talking of it in Lilith's Chamber, the "epicenter of Third Impact" according to Kaworu, she's obviously talking about the event that destroyed the world, but she was talking about what Shinji did 14 years ago, wouldn't she better say "Are you trying to cause Near Third Impact again?"

So even they seem to make a distinction between NTI and 3I.

Added to that the other hints that ulterior events happened after 2.0 (Mark.06 turned into an autonomous unit, that epicenter business...) and back to the first question : when Kaworu is saying "Lilin call it Near Third Impact.", what is Kaworu referring to : that EVA-01, when it awoke 14 ago in 2.0 launched Third Impact and destroyed the world... or he was referring to the event in which EVA-01, by its awakening, became a trigger for Impacts that was later used to launch Third Impact?(thus being the "trigger for Third Impact")

And subsequently, when he said " It was all initiated by you.", did he meant that his stunt 14 years ago changed the world in the state we see it in Q... or that the chain of events that led to EVA-01 becoming a trigger for Impacts later used to trigger Third Impact began when Shinji pseudo-evolved EVA-01 14 years ago, and thus was "all initiated by him"?


That sounds a crazy(heck, it probably is), but that's the only thing I see that could explain why Lilith's Chamber is considered the epicenter of Third Impact while Shinji's NTI happened kilometers above in the Geofront... and also means that Kaworu has been manipulating Shinji with half-truths.
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Postby Reichu » Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:42 pm

Why the cross-post?
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
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Postby ElMariachi » Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:03 pm

Well, I realized that the post would be more relevant in this thread after posting in the "Door of Guf" one. -o-;
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Postby monitoradiation » Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:30 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:But the Lilin uses both terms, Third Impact and NTE :

When Shinji arrives in the Wunder's Command Bridge at the beginning of the movie, Ritsuko talks about Near Third Impact :

And later when Asuka is fighting Shinji in Lilith's Chamber, she talks about Third Impact, at multiple times :

And since she's talking of it in Lilith's Chamber, the "epicenter of Third Impact" according to Kaworu, she's obviously talking about the event that destroyed the world, but she was talking about what Shinji did 14 years ago, wouldn't she better say "Are you trying to cause Near Third Impact again?"

So even they seem to make a distinction between NTI and 3I.


I just want to interject in here about the use of N3I and 3I. It's perfectly logical that Lilin calls what Shinji did at the end of 2.22 a NEAR Third Impact because it was an aborted "attempt at the Third Impact".

So it follows that it's still perfectly logical that Asuka talks about Shinji "wanting to cause the Third Impact again" because in her mind it's the intention to cause the Impact, not the intention to cause an aborted Impact. (You can only try to cause an Impact. The outcome is either an Impact or an Aborted Impact)

To clarify it further:

Intended event = Impact
Actual event = Aborted Impact or Impact
"0" is the past, "1" is the future, but "the present" is nowhere - this is an undeniable logic.
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Postby pwhodges » Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:28 am

But the reason that we try to keep the distinction is that clearly something else happened between the end of 2.0 and the start of 3.0, and the most likely thing is that it was the full third impact, not the aborted one. But just how that came to be is still a matter of incomplete deduction and lots of guesswork - and Shinji's supposed responsibility for the second hinges rather strongly on what the relationship between the two events actually was. It's even possible that Kaworu was responsible for the full 3I and is now simply setting Shinji up.
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