Failures of Infinity: Don't lose your head!

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Postby Jinroh » Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:43 pm

I think FOIs are pretty much dead, and as Reichu stated, most, if not all of them are missing their heads. They are probably just inanimate objects, thus the name "failure".

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Postby Reichu » Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:01 pm

View Original PostJinroh wrote:They are probably just inanimate objects, thus the name "failure".

The script says that they're "torpid" or "shut down" (katsudou teishi). This is kind of ambiguous, since the biological meaning refers to... suspended animation, almost.
Last edited by Reichu on Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:09 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:The script says that they're in suspended animation (jidou teishi).

Ugh. My lack of Japanese literacy is coming back to bite me in the ass.

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Postby hwdge » Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:20 pm

View Original PostSenzura wrote:PLEASE DO NOT QUOTE ENTIRE POSTS! -REICHU


But if the mark6s mass produced versions are autonomous, does that mean that they won't have an at field
Or does this mean that the things we see are the townspeople transformed into evas and that's why they have the fields?
Or maybe they brought back the dummy plug because we see a reiquarium , or atleast I think it's a reirquarium
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Postby Senzura » Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:33 pm

View Original Posthwdge wrote:But if the mark6s mass produced versions are autonomous, does that mean that they won't have an at field
Or does this mean that the things we see are the townspeople transformed into evas and that's why they have the fields?


Well of course not EVERY human would know how to create an AT field, thats why only a few of them are actually producing one in the first image.
Yup

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Postby Jinroh » Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:34 am

I still don't agree with that theory. I'm sure FOIs weren't created during near third impact, otherwise Misato and friends would have turned into FOIs, and it clearly didn't happen. It's probably directly related to Lilith awakening and the continuation of the near third impact we see at the end of 2.22. What put an end to the battle after everyone was dead/ turned into FOIs is the autonomous mark.06 empaling itself. Maybe that's the reason it was rendered autonomous in the first place. Once everything turned silent, Gendo and Fuyu probably came back to seal the place and start their new plan to mass produce Eva's and build unit 13 in the now fully automated facility.

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Postby K40s » Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:47 am

View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:Actually, it seems that the events of the timeskip partially parallel EoE...mainly in regards to the JSSDF attacking Nerv HQ and Lilith awakening. Except this time around, the Mark.06 was present, and Lilith was defeated. Furthermore, it seems that in NME Lilith was never actually meant to complete her ascendancy as she did in EoE, as SEELE seem perfectly content with her apparent death.
Following on the parallels with GNR during EoE, I think I can answer why Lilith/Rei head ended up in Command Centre while her body is in Central Dogma: She phased through the walls/floors like in EoE but when she was phasing through CC she gets decapitated, causing her decapitated head to stop the phasing-through-walls-quantum-magic and materializing into a solid physical object as it drops from her body and stays there at CC where we see it during 3.33.
The decapitation didn't kill her (or release her soul) like it's being implied in other posts, instead her body either stopped the phasing-magic and shrunk and materialized back in CD or also shrunk and materialized in-place at the CC and was fought back into CD where it finally got finished off.
Maybe the FoIs weren't trying to reach Lilith, maybe they were being commanded by Lilith (or acting on their own) and trying to help Lilith. They seem to be piling under the head at CC, maybe they were trying to carry the severed head back to Lilith's body down at CD, while the ones in the bottom of the Main Shaft and crawling on the Ceiling and walls of CD were rushing down to help defend Lilith's headless body. FoIs imagery reminds me of ants swarming.
In CD the headless body was fighting (against the JSSDF apparently, maybe some of the missing Evas? Mark.06? too) she got beat down very badly (guts spilled and all that) and Mark.06 (maybe to preserve her body or as a last resource before certainly losing against the hundreds? thousands? millions? of FoIs that were crawling their way down) took the chance to freeze Lilith in place, automatically freezing the FoIs on their tracks and as I proposed earlier maybe the FoI's lose their heads as a mirror image of what happens to Lilith. If they lose their heads the moment Lilith loses her, yet keep going headless and all, or only lose their heads when Lilith's body gets impaled and they mirror-image both the freezing and the headlessness all at once is up to debate, but I'm inclined to the former since it's been established quite clearly in 3.33 that Evas can keep on going headless and all (or at least whole-body cored Marks like Mark.09), so why would a simple head severing kill Lilith?

Mark.06 being white and bigger maybe she pulled a Zeruel against the 12th Angel? Zeruel swallowed Eva-00 and morphed into a "Giant Naked White Rei Boobed Zeruel", so if Mark.06 swallowed the 12th Angel she could have also morphed into a "Giant White Mark.06". This wouldn't cause an Impact on itself in the same way GNWRBZer didn't cause an Impact even though she absorbs Rei/Lilith's soul.
Substitutes Speculation  SPOILER: Show
I've been speculating that Eva-00 is an Adam clone without the Fruit of Life like in NGE, also that it contains half the soul of Lilith and the other half being inside Rei 2, so basically at that point Lilith is soulless only the lance preventing image-collapse when we see her on the cross during 1.11 and 2.22.

Zeruel being an Angel and having the FoL, absorbing Eva-00 doesn't cause an Impact regardless of Eva-00 being basically an Adam FoL-less body holding the whole soul of Lilith, I do not think that specific souls are required for anything to happen.

In the same style Mark.06 being an Adam's body clone with the FoL and having whatever soul, is basically a full Adam substitute (the "true God" line rings some bells) so by absorbing an Angel doesn't cause an Impact either.

So I'm guessing that an Angel or an Eva that gets the FoL or a Mark that already has the FoL, as long as they have a full soul within them, basically become an Adam's substitute.

On the other hand Eva-01, when Shinji went all "I want to save Ayanami", he synchronized with Yui to the point of fusing their souls, thus completing a whole soul for Eva-01, who I'm guessing is a clone of Lilith's body with the FoK like in NGE, this turned Eva-01 into a full Lilith substitute, again regardless of not having a single hint of Rei/Lilith's soul within her.

So when the awakened Eva-01 (Lilith's substitute) entered in contact with GNWRBZeruel (basically two Angels fused, so an Adam's substitute) is when 3rd Impact actually happens, as you would expect from Lilith entering in contact with Adam.
What about Lilith? why would she turn into a Giant Rei and cause an Impact? for a soulless Marshmallow Giant Lilith that was being prevented from image-collapsing by the Lance ever since her soul got split between Eva-00 and Rei 2, to become a Giant Naked Rei phasing through CC something must have happened, right? First for Lilith's body to assume Rei's shape we need a soul that has spent time in a Rei body to be imprinted with that shape, we already have such a soul, it was inside God-Eva-01 (half of Lilith's original soul went to Eva-00, which following NGE probably spent some time as Rei 1, and the other half went to Rei 2) having a party with Yui and Shinji.

Another possibility would involve some other random soul placed in a new Rei clone and then being used to revive Lilith, so let's stick with the option that makes less assumptions for now.

So Nerv removed the Cassius Lance (whereabouts currently unknown) from Eva-01, packed her in the tesseract to space, and got Rei/Lilith's soul out (it doesn't really matter in which particular order).

Lilith's body is still soulless chilling on the cross still impaled by the Longinus Lance.

Let's say they used Rei/Lilith's soul in the same way it was being used before, half of it as the "donor" who'll become the resident soul (Rei 3) of one of the missing Evas (Eva-07) and the other half as the pilot (Rei 4).
Soul Placement Speculation  SPOILER: Show
This is part of another theory of mine, I think that THE mechanism to move/split souls around is what we've already seen to cause it: the Contact Experiments.

Specifically a CE between a Lilin (human sized) body and a Angel body (Evangelion sized cloned from either Adam or Lilith or an actual Angel).

So to get Rei 1/Eva-00's soul and Rei 2's soul out of Eva-01, they basically perform a CE using a soulless Rei (3) clone and another soulless Rei (4) clone, respectively.

Then they use Rei 3 to perform a CE with the soulless Eva-07 and so she gets her resident soul.
These souls still need to get into Lilith's body somehow, and for Lilith to go all Giant Naked Rei an Impact must have happened.

Let's say there are basically only two types of Impacts:
* Adam-based Impacts: involve Adam or an Adam-substitute acquiring the FoK from Lilith or a Lilith-substitute.
* Lilith-based Impact: involve Lilith or a Lilith-substitute acquiring the FoL from Adam or an Adam-substitute.

If Eva-01's Impact was indeed a Lilith-based Impact like I'm proposing and the FoIs were created in image of Eva-01's, following on the theory that GNR was indeed controlling/influencing them or the FoIs were protecting/helping/defending GNR, it would make sense that GNR's Impact, being actually a continuation of Eva-01's one, was also a Lilith-based Impact.

How could a Lilith-based Impact (near 3rd Impact continuation) happen?
Lilith's body (FoK), checked
Rei shaped soul, checked
Adam/Adam-substitute?? this is what we need...

The 11th Angel shows up, "Rei 3" on "Eva-07" pulls a Zeruel on the Angel, Eva-07 eats and absorbs the 11th Angel acquiring the FoL, morphs into a "Giant White Eva-07" or a "Giant Naked White Rei Boobed Eva-07" and then goes to get the FoK from Lilith's body to finish what Eva-01 started.

GNR enters the show and reactivates the FoIs, like in EoE, phases through walls and floors, when going through Command Centre gets decapitated (by Mark.06? it doesn't really matter) they are fighting GNR's headless body down in Central Dogma when the 12th Angel shows up, between the sword and a hard place, (dealing with GNR, the FoIs swarming to help her, and to top it off the 12th Angel) Mark.06 being piloted by Kaworu the whole time, pulls a Zeruel on the 12th Angel, morphs into "Giant White Mark.06" and then implants herself in GNR's neck stub, impales GNR with one of the Lances (Cassius or Longinus, doesn't seem to matter) and impales herself with the other Lance, GNR body freezes on the spot and so do the FoIs.

Now, wouldn't Mark.06 entering in contact with Lilith to freeze her cause an Impact too? Yes, an Adam-based Impact, maybe this is why Earth seems to have started to be terraformed into an Adam-based-ecosystem or whatever, and maybe this was the reason why Mark.06 had to Impale herself.

At some point after all this mess they had to remove Rei's soul from Lilith, so she ends up soulless as seen on 3.33 and they had to remove the Cassius Lance and change it for a Longinus Lance. As I proposed before, I think the reason Kaworu is so sure both types of Lances are there and looks so confused when he finds out they aren't, it's probably because he was the one that left them there in the first place.

Let me know what you guys think and later I'll go into detail on why I think Eva-01's Impact (and Eva-01 herself) can't be Adam-based.

Completely Off-Topic Immature LOL  SPOILER: Show
View Original PostReichu wrote:The word is 復活 (fukkatsu), which refers to bringing something or someone back (to life). Revival, resurrection (like Jesus'), reawakening, rejuvenation, resuscitation, etc.
Fukkatsu? seriously? :lol: and mentioning Jesus made me think about the phrase "Jesus the King of the Jews" and how in the Castilian Spanish language the word "Jews" "Judíos" is similar to "Jodidos" or "Jodios" (coloquial), which basically means "Screwed or Fucked ones", and "Fukkatsu" being the Japanese word for Jesus-like "resurrection" only adds a higher level of LOLability to that! :lol: Jesus the King of the "Jodios" (Jews) that "Fukkatsu" (resurrected) at the 3rd day! :lol: I know, I know, I'm going to Hell :devil:

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Postby TMBounty_Hunter » Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:40 pm

Do FoI pans go in this thread?

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EDIT: forgot the 3rd one. Now added.
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Postby palerider1911 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:25 am

Great stuff.

And now that I've gotten a good look: Their hands might look close enough to those on manufactured Evas, but the rest of their bodies show big differences. They're more organic/crystallized looking. Not quite like the armor on Evas.

From the looks of these, I doubt the Failures of Infinity are related to the endless army of green Evas that we see Unit 8+2 cutting down. But then....where did all of those green Mk.06 lookalikes come from? Is 14 years long enough to build that many?! :cringe:

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Postby qu4d » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:36 am

You see them being manufactured in 3.33.

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Postby palerider1911 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:52 am

View Original Postqu4d wrote:You see them being manufactured in 3.33.


...I know that.

But how do you end up with what looks like millions of them, when in the past it took time and a focused effort from each NERV location just to build a few? Where would NERV even store that many of them?

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Postby Brutalman » Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:56 pm

Assuming that the pile of skulls around Lillith are FOI skulls, a bit of speculation:

It's interesting they seemed to be human skulls: two forward-facing eyes and a fairly large skull cavity. They don't have Eva-01 style armour surrounding them, though the FOIs clearly had something like it on their bodies, so it would appear that though they had armoured bodies like Eva-01 they had naked heads. So I'm guessing that the FOI's had heads like:

i) Naked Eva-01 heads. Can we tell the skull of Eva-01 apart from a human skull?

ii) Rei heads. Probably most likely. But then why doesn't Anno show them ? It's not as though he's shy about showing a whole lot of decapitated Rei heads.

iii) Shinji heads. It would explain everyone's reaction to seeing Shinji in the flesh, and the image of tens of thousands of Shinji-headed FOIs swarming like sperm towards a giant Rei-ovum is a compelling one.
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Postby Ah Q » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:21 pm

View Original PostJinroh wrote:I think FOIs are pretty much dead, and as Reichu stated, most, if not all of them are missing their heads. They are probably just inanimate objects, thus the name "failure".


I mentioned this in the "Things you noticed" thread, but a part of me suspects that the FoIs were forcefully beheaded at some point during the time skip, which might explain the mountain of Eva-sized skulls at the bottom of Central Dogma.

Otherwise it is difficult to conceive how or why so many skulls, but not full skeletons, ended up there.

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Postby Ah Q » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:46 pm

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:It should be pointed out that in Rebuild, beings have been known to function quite well without a head...


Good point. Although, from what we know about the FoIs, is there anything that would indicate they have the same headless-functioning capabilities (or are otherwise similar to) Mark.09?

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Postby machinegungeek » Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:50 pm

Just some thoughts after watching 3.33/reading forums.

1) There is, in my mind, no ambiguity about the fact that something went down after 2.22. Kaworu states (multiple times, I believe) that the bottom of Central Dogma is the epicenter of 3I. That's not the case in 2.22. And we even get a flashback confirming that 01 was NOT in CD while turning into God. So I would say that it is canon that N3I is Shinji's affair and 3I is w/e happened in CD. However, must are probably ignorant of those events, so it's all blamed on Shinji.

(Note: some people we don't see have to be alive. We get no indication that Misato actually leads Wille [just wunder] and someone has to be around in order to blame Shinji)

2) During (N)4I, we can see unit 13 bust it's shoulder pylons off and start to grow red crystal like protrusions. I imagine that this HAS to be related to the FOI, which even have the more crystally looking shoulder pylons.

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Postby sephirotic » Wed May 01, 2013 9:03 pm

Oh my Yui-sama, what an agony, ater 5 months containing my urge to watch the camrip, to come here in the forum with all this fresh ideas of the third impact and read all the discussion that have been through for months and already exhausted while i was away.

Well there is lot of things i have tought of after many readings and 5 rewatches of the 3.0. Some of then may belong in others threads but since all is related to "meachanics" of Eva/Rebuild, i'll start here.

I read the first 6 pages of this thread and the last 5 and i would like to start saying that i agree mostly with Charsi Theory; about the beginning of the Third impact being halted and later on resumed as the spear is removed from Unit 01. Most of the details we cannot know but there is a particularly thing i disagree wich i'll use to start my tougths about what happened during the 3.0 movie:

First of all:
The 4 Adam's, Kaworu and Mark 06:
From Chrasi:
The 12th Angel arrives and takes control of Eva-06, descending into Terminal Dogma. This was heavily implied in the preview. Unlike the original series there are no fully functional Evas to fight back.


1) - Just as on the original series, where the angel "counting" is not an actual counting of number of angels but more like Designations to order of appearance, i believe the same is valid for the rebuild: Kaworu clearly stated: "I don´t believe, i, the first angel would become the 13th". Later on It is said and implied (also in the 2.22) that the mark 06 is one of the original Adams. The fact that it is built in moon also backs this up, since he could´t be cloned or growth out of a LCL/Bloodysea plant there so it must be one of the FAR's original SoL's bodies, one of the Adam's. The fact that only Kaworu pilots it helps to back this up, since if a human would have attempted to synchronize with it, it may have entered in berserk since probably all Adam's were Lilith's enemy and wouldn´t want to be indulged by a Lilins command/will

So i believe the concept of "Original Adam" isn´t a single entity but just as the images may suggest: four different Seeds of Life sent by FAR, with the same goal/destination and with four distincts cores and souls. Kaworu's Soul is one of these 4 adam's, probably the first or leader/principal. This make sense with lines of Kaworu explaining that Mark 06 is of the original Adam's.

Usign part of the original series mechanics for the Third impact and Seele plans i trace the following logic:

- Seele and Gendou wants to force the Evolution of makind, the instrumentalization.
- To do so, they need to use the body of Lillith, our progenitor and it's egg to house the souls.
- However before they do so, they need to get rid of the enemie, in the rebuild's case, the ADAMS wich would not allow the evolution of humanity and rather exterminate it in preference of their own life-based-souls.
- For the completation of Seeles scenario, they must eliminate all angels, and later, the dorment remants of the 4 Adams. Kaworu soul was extracted from it's original body, much like in the original series and immobilized. The Mark 06 is the remaining of another of the 3 Adams, also in an inaninate state and converted into an Eva for control. Like is said in the 2.22: the 3rd angel, the bony one, wich had an entry plug in it, was a test platform for the completation of a conversion of one of the Adans (mark 06) into an Eva. Again i repeat, a lilin wouldn´t be able to pilot it, since most likely a partialy awake Adam's will wouldn´t agree to submit to Lilin's Will, this is why Kaworu, and only Kaworu is able to pilot it.

Let's skip the 14 years for now. What happened in the 3.0 is exactly part of what was needed to be done: Elimination of the remaining Adams. The next step is retrieval of Lillith's replacement and Lillith Soul (Unit 01 and Rei).

Now some extra elements of the mechanics i've been thinking and would like to bring:

2) The foi
Reichu and others have being intrigued by the fact, that if those thousands of Eva-like entities were made of an LCL projection using organic matter, how could they have armour and not be only giant flesh beings?
Some people mentioned this before but i'll reforce it: Even in the original series, the power of the At-field/core/soul/eva/angel was able to create NON-ORGANIC MATTER from ORGANIC matter (LCL/Bloodysea). Episode 20: The plugsuit of Shinji was materialized by Shinji's Ego as he entered the Eva's Core. In the 1.11 when the Unit 01 regenerated it's arm, differently from the original series it also restored it's amor. And finnaly, in the 3.0, the SDAT from Shinji was, in Ritsuko's own words: "RESTORED", even tough it should have been lost together with Rei's body in the missing entry plug of Unit 00. So, Yes. complex innorganic matter can be created from dust as long as a wish powered by an AT-field/core wishes to create it.
The second issue with the FOI is: OK, they could've been mass created/projected, but by who and what is then?
I would like to make an analogy with the EoE. I don´t like the idea that they are the soul of the residents of tokyo-3 in a new shape, the main reason is: In eva, a body can die, a soul can merge and split but one's identity can´t be DISTORTED. The outside body of one's own ego can only assume the image the ego defines. A projected materialized object, an Eva can only be materialized if it can be identified by the AT-field that is projecting. So no, for me it doesn´t make sense that the dead citizens of the tokyo 3 would rematerialize thenselves as Evas. But here is anoter explantion that make sense:
In the EoE when the souls are striped from their bodys as they get tanged, they all see a Rei, latter as we se the souls getting inside the lillith's Egg, we se red Reis floating in the sky and not smal balls of light simbolizing the souls. Did the souls materialized as Rei? I believe not. When a soul leaves a body, it get's lost. One of the functions of Lillith/GNR was to GUIDE the souls to the Egg. Lillth can materialize and project infinite fragments of her own image in the world wich would then hold and bring the souls to the Egg, those are the millions of red-Reis we see. I believe the bodys of infinity that we see in 3.0 are similar to those Reis in the EoE. They are materialized projections created by lillith of vessels to guide the dematerialized souls of the citizens of Tokyo 3. This explain why they all look like Eva: They are a familiar image of Lillith.

Now to the next point, the most intriguing part in the 3.0 to me is the Eva 13. The origin of my curiosity is a line of Mari: "it doesn´t have an At Field! Could it Be an Adam's Vessel"?
How can an Eva not have an At field? What is "Adam's Vessel"?

For the first question i have two possibilities:

3a) No At field = No soul, no core. Eva 13 is in fact just a regular giant body in armours with the entry plugu interface for neural syncronization.
Then you guys may contest: "Wait, an Eva can´t synchronize/move/work without a Soul!"
Then i would reply: Really? Remember the episode 13 and the Dummy bodies? Those were giant Eva clones without a core or soul and were synchronizing and being controlled neurologically by the pilots. The need of a core with a soul is solely for the purpose of expanding an AT Field, the most important weapon of an Eva/Angel. The synchronization of souls is independent of the neural A10 synchronization.
But why pilot an Eva without a Soul? So it can abosrve Mark 06 seed of live. Mari call's it an "Adam's Vessel" because it is literaly just a body made of Adam's matter able to receive an Adam's soul.

If you don´t like this explanation there is the next one:
3b) There reason why the Eva 13 didn´t have an AT Field could be because Kaworu was controlling it as a puppet, mostly like it did with unit 02 in the original series. This second version of the theory brings some new problems: What soul is in the Eva 13 core if mari calls it an Adam vessel? Another one of the original 3 Adam's? Perhaps this is why Kaworu is still needed as a pilot, so that the Adam's soul wouldn´t go bersek against Shinji piloting it. Personally i like the previous hypothesis better.

Next part:

4) When mark 06 is absorbed by unit 13, it thens absorves it's S2 organ (if the same concept exists), the hall of Guf of Mark 06, since it is one of the original Adams it has it's receptacle of souls.

As i said before in the begining of my post, the purpose of making Shinji and Kaworu pilot was to exterminate the remaining Angels. Kaworu couldn´t or even wouldn´t, as an Adam, kill a fellow SoL, he could rebel against Seele wills. By they scenario they always knew they needed a human to make contact and subdue Kaworu's instict of surviving and Killing lilin so they had to wait Shinji be awakened.
This doesn´t make all much of sense, how did they know Kaworu would eventually do Shinji's will? That is a big icognite, but then again, it is an icognite in the original series. Why wait 15 years to send Kaworu if they could've just killed him in the day 2 after the SI? The answer for the series is: To close to edip metaphore of Kaworu as a representation of Shinji's Love for his father. But in the 3.0, this doesn´t make much sense anymore. But that is another issue.

Next:
5) Eva 09 and Cores
Eva 09 is another proof of concept that i have previously arged: An core/AT-field/soul's Ego can generate not only it's own body image but any non-organic matter it wishes: Eva 09's armor and the back-rocket we see in the beginning of the movie.
I like the concept of it being entirely a Core. I've always despised the PWM theory that has become so mainstream here in Evageeks and always presented al alternative theory about the CORE been the ORIGIN OF EVAs POWER AND SHAPE-SHIFTING ABILITY. The Rebuild and the 3.0 only served TO REINFORCE the Core-unification-theory. It's already explicitely explained that the ORIGIN OF THE EVA's and ANGEL power is from the core itself. The core houses the soul, the core amplifies it's at-field. At field can matterialize anything from any basis, thus they can even shapeshift it's own core. While it makes perfectly sense that an entire core can be an angel/eva for me in my core-theory, we still need to answer a fundamental question: Whose soul is in this core?
I have 3 possibilities: One of the original 3 adam's, maybe the core of the EVA 13, A random soul, a fragment of lillith's soul.

This last hypothesis leads to the final question i would like to bring:

6) What is Kuronami? Whose soul is it housing?

It has already be extensively discussed in the forum's before and k40s has particularly a similar view to mine: Soul SPLITING/MERGE.
The original series accepts the concept of soul spliting as opposed to Soul merging. We see it with Asuka's mother, we see it with Rei vs lillith, we see it with Israfel. I believe Kuronami's soul is none other than another split of Lilith's soul itself. It is an oppening question in the original series, but for me clearly Rei's doesn´t hold 100% of lillith's soul. Part of it still remained in her original body. The reason for this is two: the partial regeneration after the soul is pulled out of her, and the "okaerinasai" she gives to Rei as she says "Tadaima". Just like this i believe part of Lillith souls still resides in its body and this part of soul has been splited to create new clones of the Rei series. Of course even tough is part of the same soul it doesn´t hold the memories of the original Rei, it's another identity.
A final adendo to this particualr theory derivates from my old Core-theory for the original series: A soul can only be manipulated through a core. This means to split Lillith souls actually means spliting her core. Rei has a portion of Lillith's core. So does Kaworu. This is the source of they power, since only a core can generate an AT field. This is why humans souls doesn´t generate an expanded at field and get lost after desbodification. This also explain the need for a external vessel to transport their soul in both the original series and the 3.0.

There is some extra things i would like to bring, like some partialy detailed views of how the Giant Lillith endend merged with mark 6 in the middle of the terminal dogma, but let's see if anyone has the patience to read my bad english and is willing to debate with the things i've already come up with before i bring more stuff.
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Postby Monk Ed » Sat May 04, 2013 4:20 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Hmm, I thought this would elicit more comment. Oh, well.

So did I. And this:

K40s wrote:* Eva-01 being a Lilith's clone (a life-form with the FoK) getting the FoL (from Giant Naked Zeruel) causes an impact that creates lifeforms on Eva-01's image: the FoI
* Eva-04 being an Adam clone with a "pseudo" FoL getting the FoK causes a (pseudo) mini-impact that creates (pseudo) lifeforms on Eva-04's (pseudo) image: the (pseudo) angels Nemesis Series Mk.04-A,B,C,?

Ignoring the stuff about exact Fruits and the conflation with NGE background material, the idea that FoI are created in Eva-01's image makes a lot of sense to me. The story here is still a little incomplete, because you'd think Misato and everyone else at ground zero would have been transformed, but maybe if Third Impact was temporarily halted by Kaworu but then somehow continued with Eva-01 still serving as some kind of seed, it might serve as the root of some explanation for why the Failures of Infinity look as they do and why Lilith takes on Rei's appearance.

What if the Failures of Infinity are all actually Eva-01 clones (who were turned to core at the end of the process along with what seems like much of the landscape), and one metafictional reason for why they don't have heads is to make it less obvious that they are look-alikes of Eva-01? The presence of armor on their bodies could be because the armor is somehow part of Eva-01's self-image, the same way Eva-01 regenerated her armor in the fight against Sachiel. It has been much more strongly established in this continuity that ATF hax can include the restoration/creation of completely man-made things, even the SDAT player.
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Postby Angel of Will » Sat May 04, 2013 7:34 am

I thought it was apparent that the so-called Failures of Infinity were the same as the citizens of Tokyo-3 who got unsuccessfully morphed by 3rd Impact.

Kaworu's line is something like "They failed to become Infinity." This agrees with how he described the Tokyo-3 citizens as not winning out on the forced evolution to become higher beings with both fruits. Infinity here would be synonymous with God-hood.

Only question would be why are those ones in the Terminal Dogma shaft instead of out on the street? Perhaps they were supposed to be sucked into the epicenter of the Impact (Lilith+Mark-6+12thAngel), but got stopped when the Impact was halted. Or they're NERV staff.
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Postby Reichu » Sat May 04, 2013 10:16 am

Monk Ed: One problem I can see with the FoIs being Eva-01 copies is that the armor is not an exact match. The big giveaway here is that Eva-01, in 2.0, has two stripes on the upper arm; the Failures have one. Could they possibly be Mark.06's doing instead?

View Original PostMonk Ed wrote:What if the Failures of Infinity are all actually Eva-01 clones (who were turned to core at the end of the process along with what seems like much of the landscape)

If you look closely at the panning shots in the Tokyo-3 outskirts, the Failures are literally coming out of buildings. Not bursting out: emerging from. This suggests that the landscape turned to core first. Human inhabitants may have been enveloped by or absorbed into this red matrix, and begun their transformations. All (or nearly all) of the Evas in the Tokyo-3 outskirts look deformed in some way, so apparently something went wrong there. The Failures inside the Black Moon, in contrast, have proper form and proportions; they just happen to be missing their heads!
Last edited by Reichu on Sat May 04, 2013 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Jinroh » Sat May 04, 2013 11:24 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:All of the Evas in the Tokyo-3 outskirts look deformed in some way, so apparently something went wrong there. The Failures inside the Black Moon, in contrast, have proper form and proportions; they just happen to be missing their heads!

I don't think I agree with that last one. Where did you see that "all" of the evas in Tokyo-3 are deformed? In the script?


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