Failures of Infinity: Don't lose your head!

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Postby K40s » Sat May 18, 2013 12:30 pm

View Original PostObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:I challenge anyone to find others instances of FoIs emerging from buildings in any of these shots
Challenge accepted!
SPOILER: Show
I marked with red the ones emerging from buildings and purple for the ones merging with others.

It seems that the whole city is a core and people got trapped by the core material and, judging by the different sizes of FoIs, I'd say that each human probably turned into a tiny FoI and then merged with the closest one and so on, have you ever seen a window's glass in the rain? the way the little droplets of water move and merge with each other forming a bigger one that finally moves on all the way down by its own weight and drags and merges others on its path down? the FoIs seem to be doing just the same, spawning from the people turned to core and merging together into bigger ones while being attracted to the centre of the city where Geofront is, probably on their way to get down the main shaft and congregate around Lilith.

This pan seems to confirm what I'm saying:
SPOILER: Show
[wkimg width=700]Eva3-33_C0805A_comp_grey.jpg[/wkimg]
look at the one on the upper left corner, it's like a dozen merging together, also the setting seems to be on a smaller scale than the city-pan, here we see small houses the smaller ones being what? 4-6 meters tall? the families just chilling at home when suddenly everything and everyone becomes core-red and after that they mutate into a red mini-eva-01 and merge together to make a bigger one, then they merge with their neighbours to make an even bigger one and so on... creepy!

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Postby Shinoyami65 » Sat May 18, 2013 1:03 pm

View Original PostK40s wrote:The families just chilling at home when suddenly everything and everyone becomes core-red and after that they mutate into a red mini-eva-01 and merge together to make a bigger one, then they merge with their neighbours to make an even bigger one and so on... creepy!


That reminds me of Junji Ito's Uzumaki.... :bigeyes:

If the FoIs were merging, possibly they were going to form a giant Eva-01? Were all of the souls of humanity meant to be stored in a giant core, shaped like Eva-01?
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Postby Jinroh » Sat May 18, 2013 1:22 pm

The merging idea is interesting. The FoIs near Lilith's head are really small.

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Postby ElMariachi » Sat May 18, 2013 1:43 pm

View Original PostK40s wrote:Challenge accepted!
SPOILER: Show
I marked with red the ones emerging from buildings and purple for the ones merging with others.

Holy crap you're right!
I colored the three merging FoI, and they are far bigger than the others :
SPOILER: Show
Image

Especially the one in the middle, he's insanely tall, he dwarfs even regular Evangelions and the buildings around!
Just... just what the fuck happened here 14 years ago? :bigeyes:
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Postby Kendrix » Sat May 18, 2013 2:14 pm

Note the legs/pylons of half-merged smaller FoI sticking out of the feet/lower legs of the merged ones.


View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Just... just what the fuck happened here 14 years ago? :bigeyes:


Hideaki Anno: Providing shiny lovecraftian images in glorious quality since 1996.

The more you look at the various "impact results", the more they seem like something out of "Berserk"... In glorious HD, too.


Loved the drops of water analogy.

Then again, it HAS to look freaky, it's supposed to be horrible enough for a fragile enough person to go nuts from the sheer sight.
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Postby Charsi » Sun May 19, 2013 12:36 am

Maybe if enough of them merge together they form a vertical pipe where the end of it is like all these little FoI "tentacles" writhing (reaching) for the disembodied head. Reminds me of the stuff coming out of the neck stumps actually...

The more I think about it, the more I keep seeing the shattered T-1000 as it melts and the droplets reform and up rises a humanoid shape. Except, the little droplets were people, and it's red - not silver.

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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Sat Jun 08, 2013 7:10 pm

I'm bumping this thread with a little discovery I made while watching Nadia: The Secret of Blue Water, an early Gainax anime, and Hikeaki Anno's second direction.

Recall riffraff's discovery from a while back, that the FoI's are actually phasing through buildings.
View Original Postriffraff11235 wrote:[wkimg width=800]Eva3-33 C0804 comp grey.jpg[/wkimg]
If you look closely at the left hand of this FoI, it doesn't look like it's crashed through the top of the building. To me it looks as if the hand got stuck while phasing through the building.?


While watching Nadia, in the section where Gargoyle (the show's main antagonist) is giving Nadia a tour of the the Red Noah's interior (it's essentially an ancient, giant spaceship), we're shown images of ancient giant mecha, now decrepit, in the background. The interesting thing about them is that they appear to be phasing through the walls
Red Noah Mecha phasing though walls  SPOILER: Show

[wkimg width=400]Nadia_Red_Noah_Proto_FoIs_1.jpg[/wkimg]
[wkimg width=400]Nadia_Red_Noah_Proto_FoIs_2.jpg[/wkimg]

The strange grasping motion is even reminiscent of the FoIs -- or is it the other way around. These mecha do not appear to be elaborated on at all in Nadia itself, except perhaps that their size is similar to the giant "Adam" shown in the show, and said to be the "first human" (No, I'm not making this up).

Another apparent reference to Nadia in 3.0 -- and bringing this up will unfortunately stir up a whole can of worms concerning the relation of the FoIs to the MP Evas -- is a shot of what appears to be an assembly area for these mecha. Half the area is destroyed, but the other clear shows a row of mecha arms. The corresponding cut in 3.0 is that of the MP Eva hands shown during Shinji's walkabout of New Nerv HQ.
Red Noah Mecha Arms/New Nerv HW MP Eva arms  SPOILER: Show

[wkimg width=400]Nadia_Red_Noah_Mecha_Assembly.jpg[/wkimg]
[wkimg width=400]File:Eva3-33 C0619A hands.jpg[/wkimg]

This raises the question of whether the FoIs are in fact supposed to be manufactured, or were originally manufactured before something caused them to "go mad" and being phasing and morphing.

Just to note: Several Nadia references to the original NGE have already been discovered, as has the fact that the Wunder's launch themes and Operation US music are from Nadia. But it's fun to find out that even more references exist. Moreover, ones which can actually inform (confuse?) Evangelion 3.0 discussion.
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Postby Jurrasic » Sat Jun 08, 2013 10:34 pm

Well done! That is a great find! It's been so long since I watched Nadia I had completely forgotten a lot of that.

Well, the saying goes "Good artists borrow, great artists steal." Next line should perhaps be "Hideki Anno recycles." :um:
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Postby Simitus » Sat Jun 08, 2013 11:55 pm

Wow Sephirotic lots of ground to cover

I'll focus on Core / control / AT field theory since I believe it is all related. Here is how I postulate the research of GEHIRN, Dr.s' Fuyutski, Yui Ayanami and Gendo Ikari went in a nutshell: I think every letter of the Eva control system manual is written in blood.

1 - With SEELE funding the research, genetic material of Lilith obtained from the Katsuragi expedition before 2nd Impact. Eventually, they attempted to clone it. This doubtless lead to many failures. They didn't always keep human form, expressing wildly divergent morphology. They were alive but unpredictable. I think these are the FOIs in CD - the only known safe place to dispose of / safely contain failed samples of Lilim organic matter. but through further experimentation they persevered. Containment rods in an armor system forced the lifeform to retain its shape - ultimately this gave them Eva units 00 and 01. Perhaps those rods bear some relation to the Lances?

2 - Yui theorized that a human could enter the core and possibly control it. She volunteered to do this herself, and entered it -- never to return. Enough data was gained from her sacrifice to prove being close to an Eva core would allow control of it but now they needed to figure out how close is too close before entering the pocket-dimension and potentially never coming back or coming back contaminated. (I bet another test subject did come back changed, else they wouldn't know there is a risk of not being able to return human). The need to control and monitor proximity lead them to the entry-plug system, with ideal "depth" being between +2 and -5 (where a synch rate of 40-60% is possible), and +100 being beyond observable "depth" into the core's N-dimensional space. The closer the proximity, the better the synchronization. It would be from plug depth 100 or so Yui ventured in the first trial. In N3I Shinji descended past 100, ripped his console out of the way and crawled so deep that he could reach into Zeruel's core-space though by then we are no longer discussing linear space.

3 - With an entry plug, they could safely get test subjects close enough to the core but something was still wrong, no one else could repeat Yui's success in synchronizing. Eventually cloning Yui herself let them figure out it was genetic. Still no sign of Yui yet, but the truth is she's still in there and chooses not to come out. A new sequence of testing with Rei and Unit-00 would yield results in control, but still had glitches like Unit-00 going berserk in the test-chamber. This research was still problematic when Shinji first meets Unit-01 - fighting the 4th angel would have been the most success they yet achieved with the Entry plug system. It even expanded an AT field, and from the expression on Katsuragi's face it was probably the first time they were able to do that.

All that said, I believe the reason Unit-13 doesn't have an AT field is thus: synchronization between pilot and core makes the Eva and the pilot for all intents and purposes the same being - an AT field can stabilize around them both without one or the other being ejected from the phase-space. It is the boundary of one's mind. Although Kaworu and Shinji were acting in concert and were both synchronized with Eva-13, it would not be possible to stabilize an AT field around the two of them because they were not synchronized to each other. The control system was taking inputs from both their consoles and outputting the correct signals to the Eva's nervous system, but that's a software function, a mechanical task. The limbs are tinker toys. The core is where the real challenge of the control system lies. It is why the pilots can experience pain, why the Evas respond to their pilot's adrenaline and reflexes.

Finally, the FOIs although dead and discarded were still organic Lilim matter and when Unit-06 became the 12th Angel and freed Lilith from its cross, Lilith awakened all that dead matter like zombies. Lilith grew significantly larger and with the FOIs as her minions, attempted to escape CD. (easy since the main shaft was completely exposed). As in EOE, the SEELE mask fell away and Lilith's face became Rei's, before some failsafe decapitated it. It appeared to improvise by making Unit-06 / the 12th Angel its new head, with the FOIs getting out into the city before Units 02 and 08 managed to spear it - telling that it required both spears: Cassius and Longinus. Central Dogma was then re-sealed and NERV HQ / Tokyo-3 abandoned. The event wouldn't qualify as an impact, but would still have been too close for SEELE's comfort.

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Postby gchristnsn » Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:02 am

View Original PostObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:This raises the question of whether the FoIs are in fact supposed to be manufactured, or were originally manufactured before something caused them to "go mad" and being phasing and morphing.


It was noticed, that if the giant would break through the house, the railing at the balcony would be broken. So, it should phase.
There also were giants of different sizes, this suggest that that wasn't a case of mass production.
The most simple conclusion that the residents were instantly transformed into the giants in-place, it's possible that this giant shown closeup was firmly caught by the house.


View Original PostSimitus wrote:All that said, I believe the reason Unit-13 doesn't have an AT field is thus: synchronization between pilot and core makes the Eva and the pilot for all intents and purposes the same being - an AT field can stabilize around them both without one or the other being ejected from the phase-space. It is the boundary of one's mind. Although Kaworu and Shinji were acting in concert and were both synchronized with Eva-13, it would not be possible to stabilize an AT field around the two of them because they were not synchronized to each other. The control system was taking inputs from both their consoles and outputting the correct signals to the Eva's nervous system, but that's a software function, a mechanical task. The limbs are tinker toys. The core is where the real challenge of the control system lies. It is why the pilots can experience pain, why the Evas respond to their pilot's adrenaline and reflexes.


Quite interesting. It's also interesting who was Kaworu's synchronization end-point. If he is Gendo's of Fuyutsuki's clone, it may be a copy of personality of his parent (or even himself as in the case of Ayanami, there was a reason of 00 going berserk in NGE, the personality in the core was against Ritsuko). It's also possible that 08 and 09 can not deploy AT-field, because a soul could not be united with a copy of a personality under the common AT-field (and 08 may be on support roles because of that, but also because of Asuka's authoritative personality).

View Original PostSimitus wrote:Finally, the FOIs although dead and discarded were still organic Lilim matter and when Unit-06 became the 12th Angel and freed Lilith from its cross, Lilith awakened all that dead matter like zombies. Lilith grew significantly larger and with the FOIs as her minions, attempted to escape CD. (easy since the main shaft was completely exposed). As in EOE, the SEELE mask fell away and Lilith's face became Rei's, before some failsafe decapitated it. It appeared to improvise by making Unit-06 / the 12th Angel its new head, with the FOIs getting out into the city before Units 02 and 08 managed to spear it - telling that it required both spears: Cassius and Longinus. Central Dogma was then re-sealed and NERV HQ / Tokyo-3 abandoned. The event wouldn't qualify as an impact, but would still have been too close for SEELE's comfort.


There is the opposite pattern, these red guys are run to Lilith, this makes a "fertilization" pattern of the hardened shell of the egg cell (comprised of the bodies of these guys), it was the seal, and it seems that Lilith was frozen by 06 which then had frozen itself. Probably these guys ran towards her head after she had been frozen and surrounded by the shell.
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Postby Grub » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:25 am

View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:That reminds me of Junji Ito's Uzumaki.... :bigeyes:

If the FoIs were merging, possibly they were going to form a giant Eva-01? Were all of the souls of humanity meant to be stored in a giant core, shaped like Eva-01?


You got it. In fact, I think the entire PLANET was supposed to. Check out the giant mouth/canyon on the Earth, look at it sideways and it kinda looks like it belongs to an Eva, too.

Freaky, freaky, freaky...
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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:22 am

View Original PostObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:Just to note: Several Nadia references to the original NGE have already been discovered, as has the fact that the Wunder's launch themes and Operation US music are from Nadia. But it's fun to find out that even more references exist. Moreover, ones which can actually inform (confuse?) Evangelion 3.0 discussion.

An excellent question would be asking why so many references to Nadia exist in this show in the first place. It seems odd that Anno would be making so many homages to it.

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Postby Stillborn » Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:48 am

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:An excellent question would be asking why so many references to Nadia exist in this show in the first place. It seems odd that Anno would be making so many homages to it.


Maybe for the same reasons as crosses? Because it's cool, mysterious and make people ask questions that Anno won't answer?
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Postby BlueBasilisk » Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:14 am

View Original PostGrub wrote:You got it. In fact, I think the entire PLANET was supposed to. Check out the giant mouth/canyon on the Earth, look at it sideways and it kinda looks like it belongs to an Eva, too.

Freaky, freaky, freaky...


Image

They really do look like Unit 01's teeth. I forgot it didn't have uniform spade-shaped choppers in this version!

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Postby Chao » Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:38 pm

View Original PostGrub wrote:You got it. In fact, I think the entire PLANET was supposed to. Check out the giant mouth/canyon on the Earth, look at it sideways and it kinda looks like it belongs to an Eva, too.

Freaky, freaky, freaky...


This is something I mentioned on the Geofront thread a while ago that I think needs revisiting. What if we think of all of this as a scaled up EVA?

We have the world of core. That core itself being an Eva (as Eva 09 showed is possible). That core can have smaller protrusions of it's image appear in it (the small Reis from 2.22 and the FoIs from the world core).

If we follow this comparison through all we are missing is an entry plug into the core (the large object pulled out during 4th Impact).

And a pilot in the entry plug (Lilith).

Not saying this is actually what's happening but I think the allusions are probably worth exploring a bit more.
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:45 pm

Brilliant!! Now that's thinking outside the box.

I could really see something like this working, in a Gurren Lagann sort of way. Pilot in Entry Plug - > Eva. Mark.06 - > Lilith. Lilith in Black Moon Entry Plug -> Planet Earth. Not sure if it would explain the moon though. Speculative stuff, if you're going to explain Fourth Impact then you need speculation.
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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:49 pm

View Original PostChao wrote:If we follow this comparison through all we are missing is an entry plug into the core (the large object pulled out during 4th Impact).

That... that's brilliant. OMF is right here, you knocked it out of the park. This opens the doors to a whole new realm of speculation.

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Postby Stillborn » Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:55 pm

As a side note. It was said many times before, that the large object looks like a holy grail.

If someone watched DaVinci Code, they should remember that the shape of chalice, symbolises female, and particulary the womb. Black moon was used that way in EoE, wonder how much symbolism will actually be used by Anno now.

EDIT

Ok, I'll be tossing random theory now. What if the black chalice isn't entry plug for Lilith...
But it's the instrumentalized and unified mankind, turned into single entity that's supposed to be the pilot? Then if whole planet become Eva, this fused, god-like entity will be able to use whole planet as a vessel to traverse space, maybe repeating the process of FAR stellar travels.
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Postby BlueBasilisk » Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:13 pm

View Original PostObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:Brilliant!! Now that's thinking outside the box.

I could really see something like this working, in a Gurren Lagann sort of way. Pilot in Entry Plug - > Eva. Mark.06 - > Lilith. Lilith in Black Moon Entry Plug -> Planet Earth. Not sure if it would explain the moon though. Speculative stuff, if you're going to explain Fourth Impact then you need speculation.


Perhaps the moon was in the process of being pulled down and transformed into a core for this hypothetical giant Eva, but it was stopped before completion? That might explain the weird pattern on it.

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Postby Soram » Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:00 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Holy crap you're right!
I colored the three merging FoI, and they are far bigger than the others :
SPOILER: Show
Image

Especially the one in the middle, he's insanely tall, he dwarfs even regular Evangelions and the buildings around!
Just... just what the fuck happened here 14 years ago? :bigeyes:


In that picture where the three larger Evas are marked.....am I the only one who sees a hand hanging down in the left upper part of the picture? There might be even larger fusions hanging around.


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