Princess Asuka and the Fairy Tales.

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Princess Asuka and the Fairy Tales.

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Postby AlphaGamma » Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:50 pm

After watching 3.33 for the third time i've become "paranoid" about the way in which Mari refers to Asuka (princess), especially in the last part of the movie, when she's talking to Shinji. Why not calling her Asuka (instead of princess)? It's not like Shinji knows who she's referring to, right? It made me perceive the line as foreshadowing of future events in 4.0.

While searching for articles about 3.0 i came across a (italian) blog (dummy-system.com), that had an interesting article about the "correlation" between Roe and Fairy tales and found out how 3.0 wasn't the first movie in the rebuild to have them.

In 3.0:
-King Gendo: Kaworu refers to him as such during the movie.
-Queen Lilith/Yui/(Rei?)
-Princess Asuka: her nickname.
-Prince Shinji(?): being Gendo's son.

In 2.0:
-Rei has a book titled "The happy prince". It's a real book (of fairy tales) written by Oscar Wilde. After reading it i found certain similarities with the plot in Roe. Especially the depiction of the relationship between the Swallow and a Reed and between the (same) Swallow and the Happy prince.

After they (the other swallows) had gone he felt lonely, and began to tire of his lady- love. "She (the reed) has no conversation," he said, "and I am afraid that she is a coquette, for she is always flirting with the wind." And certainly, whenever the wind blew, the Reed made the most graceful curtseys. "I admit that she is domestic," he continued, "but I love travelling, and my wife, consequently, should love travelling also."
"Will you come away with me?" he said finally to her; but the Reed shook her head, she was so attached to her home."


Now i wouldn't say Rei is a coquette, but this part of the fairy tale is reminiscent of an exchange between Rei and Shinji in 2.0 (during the trip with Kaji) and the fact that Rei remains imprisoned in the Eva, unable to get back with Shinji in 3.0. It also expresses well Rei's not-so-human nature and difficulty to express emotions (Rei being the reed, Shinji being the swallow ofc..).

After finding himself alone, abandoned by his friends who moved on (Shinji's return to "earth" after 14 years) the swallow meets the "talking" statue of a prince (Kaworu).

Then the Swallow flew back to the Happy Prince, and told him what he had done. "It is curious," he remarked, "but I feel quite warm now, although it is so cold."
"That is because you have done a good action," said the Prince. And the little Swallow began to think, and then he fell asleep. Thinking always made him sleepy.


The prince helps the Swallow feel better with himself (at first), just like Kaworu does with Shinji, but he also forces him to face the ugliness of the world.

"Dear little Swallow," said the Prince, "you tell me of marvellous things, but more marvellous than anything is the suffering of men and of women. There is no Mystery so great as Misery. Fly over my city, little Swallow, and tell me what you see there.

Similar to the scene in 3.0 in which Kaworu shows the state of the world to Shinji.

Anyway it's probably better if you read the tale (it's quite short). It doesn't perfectly match Roe but i'd say there are certain parts that are quite similar.

In 1.0:
-The shield Rei uses to protect Shinji from the attack of the angel is called Enchanted Shield of Virtue (quite a weird name).
Pic-
SPOILER: Show
i wasn't the one who found out about this ofcImage

It has the same name as the shield used by Prince Phillip in the "Sleeping beauty".

Now, if you were to think of a princess Asuka could be similar to (more or less), which one would it be?
I personally thought about Aurora (Sleeping beauty), even before finding out about the shield. Asuka has never really been lucky with sleep related stuff, not when Shinji is around at least. But even leaving Soryu aside, Shikinami has been kept alive by a machine in a sleeping state (probably) in Roe.

Let's throw in for good measure that Asuka has a stepmother(...) and Mari could even be her stepsister for all we know (probably not..).

So, do you think all this is simply a coincidence or could it be useful to understand where Roe is heading to? If so, how exactly?
Also, am i missing other references to fairy tales that you know of?

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Postby The Killer of Heroes » Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:09 pm

Other fairy tale references...hmm...

Perhaps "ZA BEASTO" is a play on "Beauty and the Beast" in Rebuild?

There's also the fact the Evas are, well, giants...

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Postby Kendrix » Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:24 pm

Related: Misato comments EVA 09's arrival as "The Champion is on the scene".


...But Asuka's nickname was most likely assigned because she has something of a 'tude, she has nothing in common with the innocent, untainted idea of a "Fairitale Princess" - She's the exact opposite, a hardened warrior-woman likened to a mercenary by her VA.

Gone is the pink and makeup she wore in 2.0 - her jacket is DARK RED.
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Postby The Killer of Heroes » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:27 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:...But Asuka's nickname was most likely assigned because she has something of a 'tude, she has nothing in common with the innocent, untainted idea of a "Fairitale Princess" - She's the exact opposite, a hardened warrior-woman likened to a mercenary by her VA.


That's probably the joke that Mari is trying to make about Asuka though. That she's all "grrrrrrrrr" and not really princess-like.

Could also be a reference to how Asuka might have wanted Shinji to treat her (Her "Why didn't you save me!?" line toward the end of 3.33 immediately pops to my mind here).

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Postby AlphaGamma » Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:05 am

That's probably the joke that Mari is trying to make about Asuka though. That she's all "grrrrrrrrr" and not really princess-like.

Could also be a reference to how Asuka might have wanted Shinji to treat her (Her "Why didn't you save me!?" line toward the end of 3.33 immediately pops to my mind here).


Yep, but don't forget that Mari isn't a real person... The script has been written by Anno, if he chose to give Asuka that nickname it's bound to have some more meaning than a simple joke (especially considering all the other fairy tale references...).
Also, i highly doubt Asuka wanted/expected Shinji to help her, she probably said that more to vent out her frustation, than anything else. Asuka Shikinami may not be Soryu but she's still prideful (maybe she learned to accept the idea of receiving other people's help in those 14 years, who knows).

Anyway, my point is that this entire "Shinji needs to help Asuka" business seems extremely weird and out of place if you think about it. Why did it even come up in the first place? Mari has never even met Asuka and Shinji at the same time, it's been 14 years since they talked and they had just fought against each other.
Who in their right mind would ask a broken kid that they're fighting against to help a "woman" who's been fighting for 14 years (that is also in no need of immediate help) without a more meaningful reason?

Reminds me of the series, in which Asuka has been needing help and support for pretty much its entirety, but always refused to admit that to herself, rejecting/attacking Shinji (not only him) and hiding behind her "weird" personality. Only to be left alone (by Shinji) in the fight in which she had actually matured enough to acknowledge her inability to do everything on her own (EoE).

Makes me think that they're setting up a chance for Shinji to redeem himself by helping Asuka out in 4.0. Allowing him to do what he couldn't do in Nge.
In which case Asuka's nickname would make sense (princess is usually rescued in fairy tales). Ofc i don't expect Asuka to ever be given a passive role. Maybe they'll fight together?

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Postby Craftee » Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:41 am

Even in 3.33 "The happy prince and other tales" are present.

scene when Shinji picks out books for Rei to read.

SPOILER: Show
Image
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:22 pm

Haha, this was discussed way back in November 2012. Nice to see an actual thread about it. I think there could be something to it. At least we have an idea of what fairytale it's from!

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:This would be more of a reference to another story, not a callback to NGE itself, but.

Another interesting thought from a Japanese Eva fan (Rei RPer, but they have some good thoughts) :

King of the Lilin = Gendo

Princess = Asuka Shikinami

Princess's Attendant = Mari

Marvelous Ark = Wunder

so would the Prince be Shinji?

The concept does remind them of an animated story and a play (maybe a fairy tale?) but they can't remember the title.

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Postby ElMariachi » Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:59 pm

Nice catch Craftee, an awesome call back to the previous films!

Shinji saw her read that book when he was at the hospital after Ramiel in 1.0, and probably a couple other times off-screen, so of course he would pic this one for "Rei", since it's one of her favorite.
That's the kind of little details that show us that Shinji really paid attention of Rei's tastes and wasn't saying it lightly when he said that she counted for him.
Makes the later revelation that he failed to save her all the more painful...
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Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby Craftee » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:05 pm

I havent read "The happy prince and other tales" but i feel like it could be useful if i read it, possibly to predict what will happen in final.
Still waiting on Evangelion Final...

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Re: [SPOILERS] Princess Asuka and the Fairy tales

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Postby Chuckman » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:23 pm

View Original PostAlphaGamma wrote:"Sleeping beauty".[/b]


Where's your watch, Shinji?
the prophecy is true

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Postby Kendrix » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:06 pm

View Original PostCraftee wrote:Even in 3.33 "The happy prince and other tales" are present.

scene when Shinji picks out books for Rei to read.

SPOILER: Show


Shows just how much attention Shinji was paying~~

Really, this 'royalty' thing is pretty overstated just from something Mari basically says about Asuka's at times haughty attitude.

As far as the story itself goes, the most obvious parallel would be compare the way the "prince" gives up all of himself to help other's to Rei's generall

There are numerous parallels, from the "artificial" nature (at least in statue form) , to a sheltered upbringing to this random onlookers who commnt that the beautiful prince would certainly never cry or complain.

Rei is someone who's generally epathic and has some tendency to be the one person in the team who's really concerned about every one else's welfare (see ep 22 or 18 - at the time he was making 1.11, Anno wasn't plannin on huge divegences here), or at least has some self-sacrificing tendencies, be they out or real caring or just not valueing herself very much. but at the same time, she doesn't really get in contact with ppl she might worry about, she does once she meets more people, but due to her circumstances.

(You might draw a very rough parallel to RL autistic ppl who tend to be emphatic because of the pasts they tend to get put through, but are bad at spotting when they're being insensitive or when someone needs comfort - when made aware of that, they typically react appropiately, although assholes of course exist in all demographics. The parallel is just rough outline-y in that Rei does have the ability to notice these things/leads an isolated life for different reasons)

then, we have this second character, the sallow, who had bitter experiences of their own in the past and helps the prince to interact with the world/have an effect on it, and kept him company even if that led to their own ruin...

And just as Rei closed her book and wished she could find someone like that in her own life, Shinji akes up after having been grilled by Ramiel, and we know how the rest of that day went.




That aside, the immage of the "ruined library"/"scattered books" and how small and lost Shinji looks inside of it, almot like some sort of scavenger or archeologist, is pretty powerful on its own
There goes the knowledge of humanity, built up over thousands of years... catching dust in scattered piles, having fallen out of the shelves.

True desolation.
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Re: [SPOILERS] Princess Asuka and the Fairy tales

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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:14 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:Where's your watch, Shinji?


Pardon me Good Sir, where can I read about that theory? I can't find it on Google.

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Re: [SPOILERS] Princess Asuka and the Fairy tales

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Postby ElMariachi » Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:06 pm

View Original PostChaddyManPrime wrote:Pardon me Good Sir, where can I read about that theory? I can't find it on Google.

It's very simple : in both NGE episode 1 and Rebuild 1.0, Shinji can be seen with a wristwatch when he's trying to contact Misato with a public phone, and once Sachiel attacks, that wristwatch mysteriously disappear and he's never seen with another one.

Here is in Rebuild 1.0 :
[wkimg]File:Explanation of 1-01 005.jpg[/wkimg]

Evangelion fandom being Evangelion fandom, endless speculation about a possible meaning appeared since now 20 years, especially since the mysterious wristwatch disappearance was repeated in 1.0.
A common theory is that it symbolize the beginning of Quantum!Rei's "save point" from which she'll collect the soul of the dead for Instrumentality in EoE.

Or it was a blooper and Anno repeated that in Rebuild to troll the fanbase, which is also a possibility! :tongue:
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Postby Dataprime » Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:13 pm

I just always assumed that "princess" was just Mari's cute, little nickname for Asuka. :shrug:

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Postby Ray » Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:18 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:That aside, the image of the "ruined library"/"scattered books" and how small and lost Shinji looks inside of it, almot like some sort of scavenger or archeologist, is pretty powerful on its own
There goes the knowledge of humanity, built up over thousands of years... catching dust in scattered piles, having fallen out of the shelves.

True desolation.


You could see it as desolation. I try to see it as wiping the slate clean and starting off fresh. Freeing mankind from the creative restraints of previous generations and allowing them to create for themselves. You can't draw on a piece of paper that someone else has filled up.

Of course that does suck in the long run I suppose. . . no more Harry Potter, no more LOTR, no more Chronicles of Narnia, no more Philip K Dick or HG Wells. It's a rather tragic trade off.

But hey, I'm sure Wille and the Lilim have some kind of cultural preservation society or something to keep great works of fiction alive. In this strange new world you can't forget your past.

--

Did Shinji get his watch back from Misato along with his S-dat? I guess I'll have to rewatch that scene.
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Re: [SPOILERS] Princess Asuka and the Fairy tales

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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:58 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:It's very simple : in both NGE episode 1 and Rebuild 1.0, Shinji can be seen with a wristwatch when he's trying to contact Misato with a public phone, and once Sachiel attacks, that wristwatch mysteriously disappear and he's never seen with another one.

Here is in Rebuild 1.0 :
[wkimg]File:Explanation of 1-01 005.jpg[/wkimg]

Evangelion fandom being Evangelion fandom, endless speculation about a possible meaning appeared since now 20 years, especially since the mysterious wristwatch disappearance was repeated in 1.0.
A common theory is that it symbolize the beginning of Quantum!Rei's "save point" from which she'll collect the soul of the dead for Instrumentality in EoE.

Or it was a blooper and Anno repeated that in Rebuild to troll the fanbase, which is also a possibility! :tongue:


Oh I thought it was something awesome and thought provoking :raincloud:

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Re: [SPOILERS] Princess Asuka and the Fairy tales

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Postby TMBounty_Hunter » Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:01 pm

View Original PostChaddyManPrime wrote:Oh I thought it was something awesome and thought provoking :raincloud:

pfft

You came to the wrong place for that.
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Postby ElMariachi » Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:08 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:Did Shinji get his watch back from Misato along with his S-dat? I guess I'll have to rewatch that scene.

He mysteriously lost it when Sachiel appeared and was never seen with another one, so the wasn't any watch to give him back in 3.0.
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
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Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Re: [SPOILERS] Princess Asuka and the Fairy tales

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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:08 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:It's very simple : in both NGE episode 1 and Rebuild 1.0, Shinji can be seen with a wristwatch when he's trying to contact Misato with a public phone, and once Sachiel attacks, that wristwatch mysteriously disappear and he's never seen with another one.

Here is in Rebuild 1.0 :
[wkimg]File:Explanation of 1-01 005.jpg[/wkimg]

Evangelion fandom being Evangelion fandom, endless speculation about a possible meaning appeared since now 20 years, especially since the mysterious wristwatch disappearance was repeated in 1.0.
A common theory is that it symbolize the beginning of Quantum!Rei's "save point" from which she'll collect the soul of the dead for Instrumentality in EoE.

Or it was a blooper and Anno repeated that in Rebuild to troll the fanbase, which is also a possibility! :tongue:


Oh man are Shinji's eyes brown in this universe? I can't tell. I prefer them blue, weird if I didn't notice before.

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Postby TMBounty_Hunter » Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:34 pm

Nope. They are blue: http://i4.minus.com/ibmvXtKahW9wIj.jpg

The screenshopt ElMariachi grabbed from the wiki is from the Explanation of Eva 1.01 which uses the terribly wrong and dark film master for no reason.
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