Gundam (In All Its Incarnations) Mk. II

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Re: Gundam (In All Its Incarnations) Mk. II

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Postby Alaska Slim » Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:12 am

View Original PostBlockio wrote:I disagree that Seed (or even Destiny for the most part) is style over substance.


SEED is better settei, trying to re-tell original MSG. It fails because its milking melodrama.

Destiny is a quick re-hash, brimming with stock footage, where you get a Zaft doppelganger of the 1st season cast and 90% of the plot is Shinn Asuka screaming "B-BUT MUH SISTER!"

Seed tells an all around good story and has some interesting dynamics that I haven't seen done all that often; Destiny from a conceptual point is not a bad story either, almost all of the individual plot points sound like they should have worked.

Having your story dominated by last season's cast was a bad way to go if you wanted us to care about Destiny's cast. Even more so with the Destiny cast being dominated by Asuka screaming, and everyone somehow shouldering this.
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Re: Gundam (In All Its Incarnations) Mk. II

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Postby Stan » Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:15 pm

View Original PostAlaska Slim wrote:SEED is better settei, trying to re-tell original MSG. It fails because its milking melodrama.

Implying 99% of gundam anime don't milk space opera melodrama.
(i'm not jabbing you, more so the gundam franchise as a whole)

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Re: Gundam (In All Its Incarnations) Mk. II

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Postby Blockio » Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:32 pm

Started watching Gundam Age just now; this show has visual style in spades, holy shit.

Only gripe is that everything just feels kinda distant and shallow, having a hard time getting invested in anything
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Re: Gundam (In All Its Incarnations) Mk. II

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Postby Gus Hanson » Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:14 pm

My apologies to everyone who replied to my declaration on Seed, I feel like I just made a mountain out of a molehill. Truth is, I only have limited knowledge of the Seed/Destiny workings due to having only seen some of the episodes over two decades ago as well as the Seed special edition trilogy. Also, the soundtrack to each series I feel is most recognizable and accessible to casuals because of the songs by TM Revolution.
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Re: Gundam (In All Its Incarnations) Mk. II

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Postby Blockio » Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:57 pm

Seed has a lot of problems, but one very strong arc a bit after the halfway point.

Destiny... well let's just say that around ep 40, there were some 2 or 3 episodes that were fun to watch
Why don't you save the Princess next time instead of being such a baby? She would love it and maybe you could get a sweet kiss. ~ sadly not Mari in Q (Joseki)

What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu

The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu

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Re: Gundam (In All Its Incarnations) Mk. II

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Postby Alaska Slim » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:05 am

View Original PostStan wrote:Implying 99% of gundam anime don't milk space opera melodrama.
(i'm not jabbing you, more so the gundam franchise as a whole)


MSG hedged its bets better.

It treated having young kids fighting a war as both a bad, and an unusual development. GS treated it as normal, and then used the "innocence" to play up the death. For people who it made no sense why they had those roles to begin with [The Blitz pilot].

GS had the villian capture Flay, do ... nothing with her, and then returned her in time to have a "moving" death scene. Only it wasn't, as nothing about her character was likable.

Contrast that with the spy who died in MSG. She was only around for what, 2 episodes? Way more pathos.

Same to the buddy flying aircraft. I can't even remember the name for the guy in GS who took Athrun's spinning blade to the face. His lasting impact was making his girlfriend sad. Contrast that with Ryu, who died sacrificing himself. It wasn't sad just because someone else was made sad by it, it was sad because you knew the kind of person Ryu was. He acted as a conscience to Bright, and a mentor to the other pilots. Losing him was a blow to how the whole ship operated.
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Re: Gundam (In All Its Incarnations) Mk. II

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Postby Blockio » Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:36 pm

I'll openly admit that I did not finish 0079 when I tried getting into it back in the day, so what I say might change for the later half of the show; but calling the first part more serious or even less painful to watch than the respective parts of Seed is something I quite firmly disagree on.
Why don't you save the Princess next time instead of being such a baby? She would love it and maybe you could get a sweet kiss. ~ sadly not Mari in Q (Joseki)

What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu

The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu

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Re: Gundam (In All Its Incarnations) Mk. II

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Postby Stan » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:47 pm

The anime of 0079 aged horribly, I couldn't get through it either, had to resort to the compilation films. Even so, I don't consider SEED inferior despite some similarities.

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Re: Gundam (In All Its Incarnations) Mk. II

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Postby Alaska Slim » Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:49 am

View Original PostBlockio wrote:I'll openly admit that I did not finish 0079 when I tried getting into it back in the day, so what I say might change for the later half of the show; but calling the first part more serious or even less painful to watch

Character designs alone make it less painful.

0079 was a prototype show trying something new; it's missteps are the product of being limited in resources, breaking boundaries, and the odd "New age" fixations of the 1970s that didn't outlast its era.

GS was an established entry into an established genre & brand with everything going for it. It's missteps are due mostly to lazy writing, stock footage, and a "WTF were they thinking?" character designer. It screams wasted potential.

The excellent operatic score by Toshihiko Sahashi, the better Settei, and even the far more intricate Gundam designs, all deserved character and story writing to match. But they didn't get it.

MSG doesn't have that mismatch. Its kitsch goes along with everything else.
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Re: Gundam (In All Its Incarnations) Mk. II

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Postby Blockio » Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:25 am

You're arguing from the point that "0079 was the first, therefore it has to be better and its flaws don't matter".
I disagree; how good a show is has nothing to do with when it came out. Taking this to the logical extreme, you get to the conclusion that ancient stage plays are the best form of visual entertainment, simply because there was nothing that came before it.

Seed - like 0079 - has a lot of flaws, no question, but ignoring them on one and completely shittalking the other seems rather disingenuine to me.
Yure, you can say that you personally prefer 0079, but the claim that it is inherently superior to Seed is just not true, plain and simple
Why don't you save the Princess next time instead of being such a baby? She would love it and maybe you could get a sweet kiss. ~ sadly not Mari in Q (Joseki)

What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu

The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu

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Re: Gundam (In All Its Incarnations) Mk. II

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Postby Alaska Slim » Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:28 pm

View Original PostBlockio wrote:You're arguing from the point that "0079 was the first, therefore it has to be better and its flaws don't matter".

Nope, I'm saying its flaws are more justified, and are more even. They fit within the context the work was created in; a far more limited budget that got canned in the end, not nearly the same talent in mechanical design, music or art direction on board.

Mechanical design as a profession didn't even exist until MSG coalesced the demand for art designers who could produce it.

MSG is a far more raw experience where you're getting to see where Tomino's headspace was at, picking out elements before they became genre staples, and viewing others that clearly didn't survive into future adaptations. The psychedelicism of MSG never appears anywhere else; it's vastly toned down even in other U.C. installments.

GS is far more polished, it was acting on tropes lost-since established and was simply shuffling them around. It had the resources, the talent, the backing to be 10x what MSG was, yet it wasted that potential, and. it. shows. It wasted talent, it wasted passion, it threw good art and good music after bad characters and bad stories.

And oh yes, it had worse character arcs. Absolutely. Rau Le Creuset is a Char clone who doesn't get even half Char's development. He's one note, and stays that way.

Amuro never acts as if he's on a "great mission", he instead consistently acts like a 15-year old boy forced into that position. Nor is he ever characterized as "the savior" of humanity in the One-Year war, he's just one grunt in that war. >> Kira Jesus Yamato, no question.
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Re: Gundam (In All Its Incarnations) Mk. II

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Postby Blockio » Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:09 pm

I can see where you're coming from with the character arcs; but I much prefer having them this way instead of just being a carbon copy of 0079.

As far as everything else goes - the reasons why things are the way they are and why 0079 may or may not have had it harder in production does not change anything about how enjoyable the show is to watch.

I don't think there's much point in continuing this
Why don't you save the Princess next time instead of being such a baby? She would love it and maybe you could get a sweet kiss. ~ sadly not Mari in Q (Joseki)

What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu

The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu

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Re: Gundam (In All Its Incarnations) Mk. II

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Postby Alaska Slim » Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:14 am

View Original PostBlockio wrote:I can see where you're coming from with the character arcs; but I much prefer having them this way instead of just being a carbon copy of 0079.

They could have gone the Aldnoah Zero route, and went for an original story that evoked OG Gundam in minor ways, but wasn't aping the 0079 formula.

As far as everything else goes - the reasons why things are the way they are and why 0079 may or may not have had it harder in production does not change anything about how enjoyable the show is to watch.

What makes it it more interesting is it not being held down by genre conventions. It was the codifier, and as I said, other ideas it brought to the table didn't survive. It's more unique than Seed which was simply shuffling conventions around.
"It's all fun and games till one of you gets my foot up your ass." - FofR, TrivialBeing.net Webmaster

"I blame teenage girls for everything." - Dr. Dave

"God is in his Heaven, and free men walk upon the Earth" - Rev. Robert Sirico, President of the Acton Institute


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