Do you Dislike Q?

[Giji Shinka]

Wow, this thread has become a joke.

[Mr. Tines]

Wow, this thread has become a joke.

I'm just getting acid flashbacks here.

[Bagheera]

So, first tell me how knowing more about Willie would help 3.0's story better?

I already did that. Transition scenes -- storytelling 101.

As for the rest . . . well, that's quite a straw man you've got there, yep.

[kboyrulez12345]

I already did that. Transition scenes -- storytelling 101.

As for the rest . . . well, that's quite a straw man you've got there, yep.

I'm guessing what you were really trying to see is that, in the context of Anno's position, not the movie position, that he could have created transition scenes despite the current predicament of the story right now?

[Bagheera]

I'm guessing what you were really trying to see is that, in the context of Anno's position, not the movie position, that he could have created transition scenes despite the current predicament of the story right now?

That's what I said, yes. And really, this approach doesn't need to take the focus away from Shinji. In addition to the dropped cooking scenario I described earlier, consider this possibility for the end of Break: Gendo gets on a secure line with Unit 01 and tells Shinji to rescue Rei. He tells him she's still alive, that she's in the core of the Angel, and that Shinji can get her if he really wants to. IMO that would put an entirely different spin on Break's finale -- in addition to explaining how and why Shinji would even think to do what he did, it would also expand a bit on Gendo's plans (making his use of Shinji and Rei for said plans more explicit) and put the responsibility for 3I on Gendo's shoulders instead of Shinji's. Shinji would still be the one who actually did it, but if he was provoked by our resident master manipulator it would be more of a callback to NGE and far less controversial (and yet still just as dramatic and effective).

What about Q, you say? Simple. Wille would rescue Shinji as planned, but they'd do it sans bomb collar. ReiQ would actually kidnap Shinji instead of simply absconding with him, and Gendo would use Kaworu to confuse the fuck out of the kid and get him to initiate 4I in an effort to undo what he did. But instead of forcing Shinji to make one stupid decision after another he would pull the Spears thinking (and being assured all along the way) that he was doing the right thing. Wille would still try to stop him, but he'd legitimately think they didn't understand rather than claim such in abject denial of the facts sitting right in front of him. Kaworu then ejects the plug and suicides in Unit 13 to stop 4I in an effort to atone for his mistake (since he believed the plan would work right up until the Spears were pulled) and we wind up right where we are now. But the difference is that Shinji would be a legitimate tragic character rather than a case of tragedy by derp.

And of course, since the relentless focus on Shinji would be lessened a bit, it wouldn't hurt the flow of the narrative to show us how Wille knew what Shinji was doing. We could get some brief scenes showing them getting some intel and maneuvering themselves into position to act, same as we've gotten all along the way up until now. We're talking 5-10 minutes total here, no more; even with these additions the show would still be shorter than its predecessor, and the occasional break here or there would make Shinji's storyline seem less relentless and overwhelming.

Obviously, this doesn't seem to be what Anno wanted to do. But I'm hard-pressed to see how it wouldn't suit his ends every bit as well, all the while fleshing out the characters and setting and making Shinji a much more relatable, albeit no less tragic, character. Remember, all we need for the end of Q Shinji is for Shinji to be broken. Nothing says he needs to be bone stupid in the process.

[TheFriskyIan]

I like Q, I don't like how Q doesn't explain some things though.

[Mt Olympus]

Seeing as how like and dislike are the same thing(only degrees of another) it's difficult to measure where exactly one thing lies amongst the multitude of other things.

What is there to compare 3.0 to?
For the first two films, obviously, but in continuity with the the series.

But where does 3.0 fit in?
There are most certainly components leading back to the series in 3.0, however they are not played out as the series displayed. A new light, one could say, has illuminated this movie. Which can be seen gradually in the first 2 films... preparing one's "anus".

So where do I draw a critical analysis of 3.0?
Personal opinion.

Like a lot of people I will admit that 3.0 has a bit of a hasty feeling to it, however, I asked myself "What would it have been like if 3.0 continued immediately after 2.0?" each response I had was either just a continuation of the series or some insane personal imagination which didn't come to fruition; in either case it didn't matter and was not fun(since it was my own).

So where do I place my measurement for 3.0 among all the other things I've ever encountered?
Among the highest of the high. A work among the supreme. There is no other anime I could ever think of to replace Evangelion. This is my placement of 3.0 on the scales of "like or dislike".

Regardless of how much I enjoyed the film... it is what it is... and I'm not Anno nor am I Kubrick or Lynch or Scorsese thus my opinion is subdued, muffled and instead in awe of someone's imagination and am glad of it.

Edit: CJD pretty much summed it up for me, tally me up with that pimp.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

I already did that. Transition scenes -- storytelling 101.

It all depends on what the director is going for. If you really want to be in the character's shoes, transition scenes are out of the question. It's like writing a novel in the first person. You can't have a scene in which the character you are describing isn't somewhere in it, or at least able to look at it. The only way Anno broke this rule was during the battle against the 12th angel on the Wunder and when the GNR-esque head exploded in Nerv. Otherwise, it looked like it was all Shinji-centric.

[Warren Peace]

It's telling that no one can come up with anything concrete as to how to make the film better. It's all vagaries, like "let's stick some answer to Rebuild's mysteries in the middle". Here, "character development" is being used as a synonym for "flashbacks". That's not the way this stuff works. Anno's never presented a character's history for the hell of it, it had to have some bearing on the "present". That's why Episode 22 works so well, the multiple timelines complement eachother.

A cohesive narrative is the goal. Simply listing a bunch of random backstories Anno could have used does not achieve that.

[kboyrulez12345]

@Bagheera, Okay, I see where your coming from now. Sorry I didn't understand earlier. Now, my two cents:

Yes, everything you just described would have made 3.0 better. Would I mind it? Of course not, I love small transition scenes.

But from what I'm getting at from your response(please correct me if I'm wrong, because I guess I tend to misread other people's opinion), is that your focusing on what COULD have been done.

IMO, the way I view stories, I focus on what we get, not on what could have made the story better or anything else like that. Sure, everything you just said would have made the story better, but from what we got now, I say, I'm satisfied. That's just how I do it.

I don't care what the author's predicament on the story at hand(which, in 3.0 case, seems to be that everything was scrapped in mid development, if that rumor holds true.) the only thing I care about is what we got now, how the author convey's his ideas on movie(or books). What we see that is in front of us, and not focus on the things that could have made it better.

[Bagheera]

It's telling that no one can come up with anything concrete as to how to make the film better.

Not to put too fine a point on it, Warren, but that's exactly what I did in my last couple of posts. And no, I'm not using "character development" as a synonym for "flashbacks".

[Warren Peace]

I asked myself "What would it have been like if 3.0 continued immediately after 2.0?" each response I had was either just a continuation of the series or some insane personal imagination which didn't come to fruition; in either case it didn't matter and was not fun(since it was my own).

It seems like one's enjoyment of Q corresponds with how able one is to get past all that fan fiction stuff. We ALL had our own little interior storyline going of how we thought it should turn out. I wonder how many of the detractors find it difficult to put aside the 2.0 preview (and the speculation that came with it). At first, I was a little pissed that we didn't learn about the "descention to dogma", but got over it pretty quick. The actual Q is more interesting than what was hinted at in the preview, but not everyone may think so.

[Sailor Star Dust]

Just a reminder to keep things civil. No need for this thread to get heated or passive aggressive like on the previous page.

[Warren Peace]

Swimming past the bait is indeed more productive, that is true.

[KingXanaduu]

Since everyone else seems to be doing this, guess I'll dive right in too.

For me, the reaction that I received from this film was a strong negative reaction. It really felt like a punch in the gut to me to have this dark of an atmosphere despite the "Psuedo-positive" outcome of Rebuild 2.0. I'll admit, my reaction was up there with CJD when I read about the movie. (Bro-fist right here bro! :) ).

If my posts in the "Shinji Analysis" page is any indication, the movie really left me with a bad taste in my mouth, especially with Shinji's predicament.
Now, I won't touch any more of that with a ten-foot pole, cause I don't want Seele00textonly to slap me at the back of the head for not "getting the movie".

However I will say this about the movie that it succeeded in doing right to me. Note my sentence above:

The reaction that I received from this film was a strong negative reaction.

This movie really left a big, lasting impression on me. Not the best impression, but an impression nonetheless. It's like Anno slapped me across the face and yelled "GROW UP, LIFE SUCKS, DEAL WITH IT." And that's what this movie does (hell, what Anno does) so freaking well.

It's not everyday that you come across a movie that really gives you such a reaction and a lasting feeling. You really feel for Shinji's plight being a fish-out of water, his world being turned inside-out, and being broken with the weight of his consequences crashing down on him. You, in a sense, become him, and you really feel the pain he's going through. (Whether or not that makes him more sympathetic, go read the Shinji Analysis Thread. )

I've said this once, and I'll say it again, this movie succeeds to be even more depressing than EoE. Whether or not that's a good thing, only FINAL will tell.

So to sum up my opinions on it:

Is it a good film that does what it's supposed to do? HELL YES!

Do I personally like it? Not really much. I'm an optimist, so excuse me.

Does it make me want to continue the Rebuild series? I'm sort of at a 50/50 answer with this. The movie is so open-ended at the moment, it can go in any direction now. It can either come out with a happy end, a bittersweet end (which I think would be the more dynamic route), or it could end up really bad. :( That's up to Anno, and who knows what the hell he's thinking.

[Güf Trüp]

I'm pretty much in the same boat as everyone, so I probably shouldn't bother posting this. I expected a more "Traditional" action movie, and was pretty disappointed with what I ended up getting. Then after the second viewing of the camrip I decided that I enjoyed it, despite how little it followed my expectations. If anything, it's better that I didn't expect any of it and remained impressed, rather than being exactly what I expected to be.
My only complaints now are: No Kaji, which I'm still hoping for a resolution for, no sexy suit for Kaworu (It made him too sinister, I guess?), and most of all, no wacky mountain adventures with Gendo, Fuyutsuki, and Champion the wonder donkey.

[Lance of LoL]

Alright, I will freely admit I did not read every post following the first page, that's not to say I didn't read anything past the first page, just not all of it.

I've been away working and I return to this. I feel I need to explain my position better as even people I thought better of, to quote SEELE "Didn't get it."

I was a student of Film Studies. A poor student, but a student none the less. Long before that, I was a fan of movies. I am also a fan of books, stories, video games and of course, tv shows.

While everyone is entitled to their views and opinions, my topic was a simple question, do you dislike Q, if so, how would you improve it using what the film has at its disposal without inserting your own views or opinion? In my case, this was to take a few minutes which could have been sheered from some longer scenes and put in five minutes of exposition on the situation of the world (Of which I will not give my opinion of what that should be, since that goes against the guideline) to put people's already taxed minds at ease and allow them to better focus in on a singular event. If you liked the film, that's fine, but I'm forced to ask, why are you here? If you like it, post that you do, ignore this thread and move along. If you dislike it, or are indifferent for various reasons, welcome.

But this brings me back to MY position. As someone who loves narrative stories and has in fact learned from the academic standpoint how to judge a film. I view Q as a failure. If you read my first post, I even say, that I understand this decision from the perspective of wanting us to understand and sympathize with Shinji. However, this does not excuse Q in the slightest. It gives us Shinji's position while virtually destroying those of everyone else.

Mari, who had previously convinced Shinji to get off his ass and do something, now sits back and snipes leisurely and seems no more affected by the world around her than a casual observer. Why?

Asuka is angry, young, and aside from some very small hints, no different than more than a decade ago, why? Even if her body remains the same how has she not grown beyond the position of a violent teenager when Shinji is involved?

Misato, the person who cheered Shinji on while he destroyed the world before is now treating him as a criminal and strapping a bomb to his throat. Admittedly her hesitation to push the button gives us shades of her continued concern, but I feel this is a somewhat empty gesture when the thing activates automatically should she get close enough while he's in an Eva.

Gendo, is now seemingly in SEELE's good graces to the point where he shuts them off and takes over, why, how?

There are a million and one questions that this story brings about, and while several of them could and possibly will be answered in Final, it is simply too much to expect a viewer not to pay attention to these things to focus on Shinji who has zero answers and is merely discovering things that many people figured out anywhere from 30 minutes to two movies ago.

Anno is a skilled story teller and as far as the series go, that's good, his ability with a running narrative of movies however, seems to be lacking. The transition between 2.0 and 3.0 is ridiculously jarring and there are more than a few ways to improve the narrative without effecting Shinji's sense of isolation or obliterating the characters of half a dozen other characters.

During this film (While less so than previous ones) We are treated to several scenes which do not necessarily effect the story as a whole, or go on a bit longer than would be necessary to get their point across.

The musical montage, a few slow scenes here and there that could've shaved several frames without much loss. This would have allowed ample time to put in a scene with other characters.

Shinji needs to feel alone and ignorant for this story to work for some people, fair enough.

Why does this have to happen at the expense of everyone else?

Why could we not get something with the Willie crew on route that might explain some of their attitudes even a bit?

I don't know if I'm retreading old ground here, but that is my view on the movie. It's not that I "Don't get it." It is perfectly possible to understand something and still dislike it, and even without the narrative problems I have with this movie, I would probably still dislike it simply by merit of what it did to Rei.

Still, my ramblings aside, I hope this enlightened someone as to my thoughts on the movie.

[Warren Peace]

Couldn't Ridley Scott have told us why that ship was full of weird eggs? What kind of vessel would carry such dangerous cargo? Are they really biological weapons? No hint whatsoever.

There's an alien corpse sitting in a chair that looked like a gun. He seems to have died from a chest wound. The film completely drops this. What circumstances led to the ship crashing in the first place? Was he even a pilot at all?

Ripley's really the only person we get to know. The others are painted in broad strokes. Brett and Parker wanna get paid. Lambert is the stereotypical "bitch", all shrieking and hysterics. Dallas is a captain who does captain-y things. Bilbo is the terminator. Why did Ripley have to get developed at the expense of everyone else?

All those endless shots of the ship, a few slow scenes here and there that could've shaved several frames without much loss. This would have allowed ample time to put in a scene with other characters.

We are treated to several scenes which do not necessarily effect the story as a whole, or go on a bit longer than would be necessary to get their point across.

The Nostromo received a distress call that turned out to be a warning. Who sent that out? How? Why doesn't Ridley answer this? *

Because it would have destroyed what the film accomplished.

Alien is a good parallel for Q, different as they may seem. In both films, mystery is not a failure of the text, it is the text. The gaps presented do not exist because of storytelling malfeasance. Anno didn't just forget to crosscut with the Wunder, it was a strategic choice. Why did he make this choice? Because mystery is the entire point.

Q is about the rug pulled out from underneath you, again and again and again. It aims to capture the feeling of your place in the world being completely undone, the very sense of you obliterated. Involving the Wunder in some sort of B-Plot, no matter how well executed, would have undone this. The one word that defines Shinji is "removed". He is removed from everything. We are removed from everything. We don't get to go back because he does not go back. We cannot redo.

Why didn't Anno tell us what's happening on the Wunder?

Why didn't Scott tell us the story behind those eggs?

Because answering it breaks the spell.

* Okay, yeah, I realize Scott answered some of this decades later, but I'm sticking to the original film's goals

[Seele00TextOnly]

...

[Bagheera]

Alien is a good parallel for Q, different as they may seem.

It really isn't. Alien was a standalone film at the time, and the mysteries surrounding the Space Jockey weren't relevant to the narrative. Plenty of other mysteries were addressed, however. We did learn why the Nostromo was sent to LV426. We did learn that the signal was not a distress signal, but rather a warning. We did learn that the Company judged the human lives in the crew expendable. We actually got quite a bit of information about the setting and the overall plot, and we very much were not restricted to the viewpoint of a single character -- indeed, this is exactly the sort of storytelling Q needed so badly. A couple of scenes like the one we got with Dallas and Mother, or between Brett and Parker, would have made all the difference in the world.

No one's saying everything has for be explained to Q to work. We're just saying what we got wasn't enough -- it's a balancing act, one Alien handled with a level of finesse (and success) that Q didn't quite manage.