Split - Q Plot Analysis Thread

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Postby Mbryo » Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:47 am

Hello, new here :) I wonder if I am allowed to post here?

speculation in the Korean forum is that regarding Kaworu's line, the one about using the two spears to restore the world as it was, has something to do with the theory that the rebuild series is actually a sequel of the TV series, that the world was somehow 'reset' in End of Evangelion, but this is just a theory.

And I also think it is quite weird that people who were watching the Near-Third Impact happen from so close have come out without a scratch (Misato, Ritsuko, Maya, and rest of the surviving NERV staff) yet the entire world is in such a horrible state. Lilith seems to have broken loose from her cross, and Kaworu says that Eva Mark.06 was re-programmed to be able to operate without a pilot and descended into Terminal Dogma. Judging from those facts, perhaps Eva 01's entering the awakened state triggered Lilith to wake up, thus initiating some kind of incomplete version of the Human Instrumentality project (Kaworu's line that the headless eva statue-thingies are humans who have died in the proccess of becoming Infinites), and Eva 06 managed to deactivate Lilith with the lance and then pierced itself..............

Eva 09 is also referred to as a 'Vessel of Adams', possibly indicating that it is one of the Adams as well, and Eva 01 could possibly be one of the Adams (the white skin under its armor, and it basically becomes one of the Adams in near-third impact) Eva 13 is also referred to as a survivor of the Adams, but it is weird, since none of the Adams had four arms and eyes, and Eva 13 also seems to generate two halos. Perhaps it is two of the Adams mashed together.
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Postby Yue » Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:00 pm

Mari (or a relative) is apparently alongside Yui Ikari in an old photo Fuyutsuki has.


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Postby Kendrix » Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:42 pm

Another still misterious things are the two men in the Yui/Mari's mother pics.

Some seem to have thought one of them was a younger Gendo, which would make it likely that the other one is Mari's father.

Then again, some say they didn't recognize any of them, putting them squarely in unresolved-mystery-territory.
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Postby tomfrom994 » Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:08 pm

Here's what I've gathered, along with a few theories. Pardon if others have figured most of this out before me. I've only just recently seen the film.

Also, for the record, this is very spoiler heavy, and I also wrote it as my mind was attempting to grasp what I saw, so mind the lack of organization.

SPOILER: Show
First off, watching the film, I started wondering why the scenes from the trailer at the end of 2.0 didn't seem to be in 3.0 at all. Only recently have I come up with the theory that the events in the 2.0 trailer were events that happened before 3.0. And if this is the case, then that ruins any trailer-based speculation I could have for what happens in Final.

Now, nothing in this movie perplexes me more than every single fucking thing that happens in the last half hour. From what I was able to gather, especially during scenes with Kaworu and Shinji, it's that every moment is planned by Gendo. He has some sort of plan that requires that certain people do certain things. It's possible that certain actions were taken by Nerv/Seele to help influence these people to do these things. Even after something like Fuyutsuki telling Shinji everything about Yui, Eva-01, and Rei, Fuyutsuki wished that he “could have been given a more pleasant part to play.” And at the end, Gendo amends the Dead Sea Scrolls' contract (also known as Seele's scenario), the Eva Mark 06 becomes the twelfth (and supposedly final) angel, and Kaworu goes from being the first angel to the thirteenth angel.

Also of note, the Mark 06 doesn't become an angel until we hear Gendo say “Let's begin, Fuyutsuki.” While this would suggest the kind of hand that Gendo and Fuyutsuki have, after the Mark 06 rises, Asuka remarks "This is bad! The Twelfth Angel is still alive!"

Mari also becomes a much more interesting character this time around. Not only do we see her in a photograph with Yui, but she appears to know something regarding Gendo's plan. There are two times in the film when Mari refers to something as an “Adams' Vessel,” both times referring to the Eva Mark 09. At first, I thought this was a sign that she knows that Rei is a clone of Yui. However, there is some interesting dialogue between Mari and Rei that might suggest that the term “Adams' Vessel” means something entirely different.
01:10:55 {Mari} Hey, Seele temp pilot,
01:10:58 {Mari} you can hear me, right?
01:11:00 {Mari} Don't you think you should get out before you turn into an Adams' Vessel?
01:11:04 {Rei} No. That is not the order I received.
01:11:07 {Mari} Talk about a square.
01:11:09 {Mari} You know your original was a whole lot more friendly?
01:11:12 {Rei} Original?
01:11:14 {Rei} The other me...


And when Kaworu becomes the thirteenth angel, thus making the Mark 06 not the final angel, she remarks, “So this is what Gendo-kun is aiming for.”

We then see Gendo bid his farewell to Seele.
“It is time to amend the Dead Sea Scrolls' contract. This is farewell. Even though all of you have changed the shape of your souls, you are still lifeforms blessed with the Fruit of Knowledge. You were able to live for eternity, but, same as us, you still cannot escape the fate of death.” This suggests that Seele must have blessed themselves with the fruit of life (which doesn't seem too far fetched, as Seele gave Shinji the fruit of life in EoE).

“To advance the evolution of the flock burdened with death, you had bestowed upon us the gift of civilization.” I'm not entirely sure, but I'm going to guess that this may have something to do with “where the Lilin are.” I base this off of the next quote, “As the representative of humanity, I say thank you,” as well as Kaworu referring to Gendo as “the King of the Lilin.”

“Through death, I shall return your souls to where they belong. The long desired Human Instrumentality Project, and the contracted deicide, will be completed by me. Rest assured.” If Gendo had to kill them, then I think it's safe to assume that Seele wouldn't approve of whatever Gendo is planning to do here. At least that's all I can come up with as to reasons why. There could be tons of other reasons as well.

Kaworu is Seele's child, so he has the same role as in the series, in which he is guided by Seele. We can only assume that Kaworu was carrying out Seele's original plan, and he was not supposed to die. When Kaworu takes Shinji outside, Fuyutsuki and Gendo discuss how Shinji's reaction was as anticipated. I must assume that Seele had intended on backstabbing Nerv, because Kaworu refers to the Human Instrumentality Project as “Nerv's Human Instrumentality Project”. And I'm also assuming that Nerv knew about this, and decided to account for it when carrying out the events that transpired.

In the end, everything went according to Gendo's plan (and against Seele's plan) when Kaworu died, Eva-13 awakened, and Katsuragi's actions were “within predictions.” It would seem that Seele had planned for Kaworu to stay alive (as to why, I have no idea). I'm also uncertain as to what else Seele wanted if they hadn't planned for Eva-13's awakening to happen.

This is where my lack of understanding ruins my interpretation. I'm not sure how exactly weilding the two spears was going to “fix the world.” It would seem that obtaining the spears would prevent Nerv from causing Fourth Impact. And wielding them with Eva-13 makes it possible to fix the world. Did Seele know that Eva-13 is one of the surviving Adams?


So yeah. If anyone can correct me or tell me that I'm doing it wrong, it'd be appreciated. [/spoiler]

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Postby Jay » Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:13 pm

@tomfrom994,

You have posted one of the best, if not the best, assessments and summaries of Q that has been posted on EvaGeeks forums yet. Fucking brilliant, I'd say. You've really enhanced my own understanding and knowledge about what happens in Q. Seriously, thank you, thank you, thank you. However, there is one thing I disagree on.

Gendo bid his farewell to Seele.
“It is time to amend the Dead Sea Scrolls' contract. This is farewell. Even though all of you have changed the shape of your souls, you are still lifeforms blessed with the Fruit of Knowledge. You were able to live for eternity, but, same as us, you still cannot escape the fate of death.” This suggests that Seele must have blessed themselves with the fruit of life.


I think the above in fact suggests that Seele was unable to obtain the Fruit of Life and therefore will be unable to live forever. So while Seele did obtain the Fruit of Knowledge, without the Fruit of Life, they are subject to death and mortality just like the rest of us. Seele doesn't go on to live forever, they do in fact die in Q, just at the onset of Fourth Impact.

The Fruit of Life (from the Tree of Life) is the fruit that Adam & Eve were prevented from partaking in by YHWH, less Adam & Eve become Gods themselves. They were only able to take fruit from the Tree of Knowledge before being thrown out of Eden. Seele sought to become gods by trying to find the Fruit of Life, but failed to do so.

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Postby tomfrom994 » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:34 pm

View Original PostJay wrote:@tomfrom994,

You have posted one of the best, if not the best, assessments and summaries of Q that has been posted on EvaGeeks forums yet. Fucking brilliant, I'd say. You've really enhanced my own understanding and knowledge about what happens in Q.


Thank you very much, sir! I appreciate it!


View Original PostJay wrote:@tomfrom994,
I think the above in fact suggests that Seele was unable to obtain the Fruit of Life and therefore will be unable to live forever. So while Seele did obtain the Fruit of Knowledge, without the Fruit of Life, they are subject to death and mortality just like the rest of us. Seele doesn't go on to live forever, they do in fact die in Q, just at the onset of Fourth Impact.

The Fruit of Life (from the Tree of Life) is the fruit that Adam & Eve were prevented from partaking in by YHWH, less Adam & Eve become Gods themselves. They were only able to take fruit from the Tree of Knowledge before being thrown out of Eden. Seele sought to become gods by trying to find the Fruit of Life, but failed to do so.


I see what you're saying. Their quest to become Gods could be the reason why they "changed the shape of their souls."

And that might also explain why Seele wanted Kaworu and Shinji to retrieve the two spears, though I'm not too confident in assuming this. I still don't know what would've happened exactly if the Eva-13 had retrieved the two spears without Nerv's trickery. It wasn't really explained just how weilding the spears would change the world. But if Seele hadn't planned on 13's awakening, then the plan didn't involve the Eva-13 becoming a God. I can't think of anything else it could've done. I probably missed something.

As a possibly related side note, however, it would seem that we have hints that could suggest something possibly major about Seele. Looking through the translation, there is a scene in which Eva-13 and the Mark 09 are descending to the deepest part of central dogma. There's a quote from the dialogue that is blowing my mind, where Shinji asks why Rei couldn't have piloted the Eva and retrieved the spears with Kaworu.
SPOILER: Show
01:07:48 {Shinji} The things that are piercing them... are our targets?
01:07:52 {Kaworu} Yes, the Spears of Longinus and Cassius. Wielding both requires two souls.
01:08:00 {Kaworu} That is why we have the Double Entry System.
01:08:04 {Shinji} Then... wouldn't THAT pilot have been just as good for this as me?
01:08:08 {Kaworu} No, a Lilin imitation cannot be used.
01:08:10 {Kaworu} Their souls' placement is different.


And thus, I call back into question this quote:
SPOILER: Show
01:16:24 {Gendo} It is time to amend the Dead Sea Scrolls' contract.
01:16:29 {Gendo} This is farewell.
01:16:33 {Gendo} Even though all of you have changed the shape of your souls,
01:16:37 {Gendo} you are still lifeforms blessed with the Fruit of Knowledge.


My brain can't even process all of this fuck, let alone contain it.

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Postby Jay » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:47 pm

@tomfrom994,

Your intelligence really impresses me and you show an excellent capacity to grasp understanding even with very enigmatic matters. Essentially, rather than discussing the interpersonal relationships and ancillary characters and speculating about romances and other issues of drama, the topics you have brought up deal with cosmic and super-cosmic metaphysical matters.

My own current interpretation, based upon the information available to me, is that Gendo Ikari, through a whole lot of posturing, was able to not only able to replace the shadow government (which had been running the show for decades, possibly centuries before hand) with himself as the Godfather (so to speak), but was simultaneously able to remove any potential opposition to his power. I think that Gendo, by tricking Kaworu into thinking that there was a Cassius type Lance in Central Dogma, was able to get Kaworu and Shinji to unwittingly initiate Fourth Impact, which made Seele think that the end was finally at hand and so Seele volunteered their own deaths because they thought it was all finally going to be over. Seele died before Fourth Impact was stopped by Kaworu's death (suicide?) and sacrifice. I think if Seele had known that Fourth Impact would be stopped, they would not have agreed to euthanization. So in the way, Gendo was able to rid himself of Seele and assume absolute power. In another way, Gendo was also able to rid himself of the only viable opposition to his agenda, which was Kaworu, Seele's boy. So Gendo tricked not just Kaworu, but also Seele into killing themselves, thereby paving the path to the power he had been posturing for for who knows how long.

If my understanding is correct, my question is why does Gendo want power and control? Second Impact wiped out at least half or more of all humans and also did untold damage to nonhuman animal (fauna) and plant life worldwide, potentially rendering most animals and plants extinct. Third Impact wiped out the other half of the human population, and thoroughly eradicated all other life (animal and plant) on Earth. In 2032, the year Q takes place, there may not be more than few hundred humans left, and possibly far less than that. My point is, almost everyone is dead, there is little left to control or have power over. It all seems pointless. Even the shadow government, Seele, had nothing to govern over. All nations and their people were obliterated by Third Impact.

So Gendo's new position as Rex Mundi, King of the World, itself holds little power. My only explanation right now is that Gendo wants to become a God.

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:12 pm

I thought we had no knowledge of how extensive the additional damage done by the aborted third impact was; IOW, the early assumption that it had killed off pretty much the rest of the world is now considered to be unsupported. After all, Nerv and Wille could be operating at anything like the level they are without a considerable infrastructure somewhere.
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Postby Jay » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:34 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:I thought we had no knowledge of how extensive the additional damage done by the aborted third impact was; IOW, the early assumption that it had killed off pretty much the rest of the world is now considered to be unsupported. After all, Nerv and Wille could be operating at anything like the level they are without a considerable infrastructure somewhere.


That's wrong. We are able to see shots of the earth both from far off in space and also close up shots of the environment. Everything is dead, it's a post-apocalyptic wasteland so to speak. There's plenty of support for the damage done by TI. I can post a slew of environmental shots displayed during Q if you'd like aswell as a far off shot of the earth as seen from space. Likewise if TI had not done the damage it did do, folks wouldn't be pissed at and hate Shinji like they do in Q (with the sole exceptions of Rei Q, Fuyutsuki, Sakura and Kaworu). Some folks have already pointed out, based upon pictures of the moon and the earth as seen in Q, that the moon is far more inhabitable than the earth at this point.

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:23 pm

I SWEAR TO GOD, I AM GOING TO DITCH ALL OF MY CLASSES AND FLY TO Japan IF I DO NOT GET TO SEE THIS MOVIE SOON.

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Postby hui43210 » Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:48 pm

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:I SWEAR TO GOD, I AM GOING TO DITCH ALL OF MY CLASSES AND FLY TO Japan IF I DO NOT GET TO SEE THIS MOVIE SOON.


Full rip is out!
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Postby Jayfive » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:09 pm

View Original Posthui43210 wrote:Full rip is out!


Shit, as they say, just got real.

Thanks for the tip-off, dl-ing as I type.
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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:39 pm

It's gorgeous. I cried when watching it. Again. I have a bad habit of crying at awesome Evangelion-related things.

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Postby Kendrix » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:00 pm

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:It's gorgeous. I cried when watching it. Again. I have a bad habit of crying at awesome Evangelion-related things.



*quietly hands you a tissue*
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Postby Darkwing » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:22 pm

Yes, I too have also noticed Eva's ablility to make me sad, while also making me angry. It makes me SANGRY!

On another note, I kinda have been thinking a bit about something it has in common with Gunbuster. Both Q and Gunbuster had protagonists who end up out of time from people who were their contemporaries. Of course there are a lot of differences, but to me it both have a great deal of sadness, and a certain sense of loss.
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Postby rebecca_kalista » Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:44 pm

Saw the rip yesterday. I really enjoyed it. Just read this topic and I'd like to say thank you everyone for your analyzes.

Wrote a little about my impressions (spoiler free for now).
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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:45 pm

I'll be finishing it tomorrow; I decided that I didn't want to watch past the two min. point without subs, if I could have some in the first place.

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Postby slothen » Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:40 pm

View Original PostJay wrote:I can post a slew of environmental shots displayed during Q if you'd like aswell as a far off shot of the earth as seen from space.


I would like that. I cannot reconcile the idea that the clearly aborted 3I (stick to this instead of TI) as seen at the end of movie 2 would have wiped out humanity. The earth had 14 years to become a wasteland, and its simply not plausible that Wille would exist if all civilization had collapsed immediately following 3I (furthermore, why would they need "cover?").


Edit: Is there actually a decent version somewhere? i was watching a camrip that often only had half the screen visible.
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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:16 pm

Holy shit. That was... wow. Kendrix, I need more tissues. A few boxes would be nice. Wow. Just... wow. My hat goes off to you, Mr. Anno.

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Postby Ornette » Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:26 pm

Has anyone seen this post by @evafan?

http://neweva.blog103.fc2.com/blog-entry-2067.html

Anything interesting in there?


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