Father/King
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[SPOILERS] Father/King
Kaworu called Gendo in 2.22 Father... this seemed to me to be somewhat of a close/near thing, like he knows him and stuff.
Now in 3.0 he calls him King of the Lilin, nothing of a son/father-relationship at all. To me he seemed to be very distant from him.
After watching 3.0 and looking back to the 2nd movie... any thoughts about the father quote?
Just curious.
Now in 3.0 he calls him King of the Lilin, nothing of a son/father-relationship at all. To me he seemed to be very distant from him.
After watching 3.0 and looking back to the 2nd movie... any thoughts about the father quote?
Just curious.
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The "king" part probably just referring to Gendo's role in the prophecy. That's presumably how the scrolls refer to him.
It's a different situation, in 2.0, Kaworu was speaking directly to Gendo, in 3.0, speaking about him with him not present (while noticing that he's been had, no less)
It's no wonder that you'd adress someone in a "Ah, nice to meet you, so you're my genetic donor!"-kind of situation in another way than in a "Man, that bastard tricked us."-situation. I love the mix of shock, resentmet and even grudging admiration/respect in Kaworu's voice there.
He knows is means they're screwed, but damn, he gotta respect that sheming bastard.
Also probably relevant: Nebukadnezzar was a king.
One drastic thing is, he doesn't even give Shinji and Kaworu orders. He sends them down there, probably fully knowing that they plan to thwart his plans... like he's sure that whatever they do down there, it can't possibly screw up his plans. They're in the palm of his hand. And only Kaworu and Mari were even aware of it.
Also... faithful widower of 25 years. Wow. Yeah, he definitively should have gotten a life somewhere along the way, but still.
It's a different situation, in 2.0, Kaworu was speaking directly to Gendo, in 3.0, speaking about him with him not present (while noticing that he's been had, no less)
It's no wonder that you'd adress someone in a "Ah, nice to meet you, so you're my genetic donor!"-kind of situation in another way than in a "Man, that bastard tricked us."-situation. I love the mix of shock, resentmet and even grudging admiration/respect in Kaworu's voice there.
He knows is means they're screwed, but damn, he gotta respect that sheming bastard.
Also probably relevant: Nebukadnezzar was a king.
One drastic thing is, he doesn't even give Shinji and Kaworu orders. He sends them down there, probably fully knowing that they plan to thwart his plans... like he's sure that whatever they do down there, it can't possibly screw up his plans. They're in the palm of his hand. And only Kaworu and Mari were even aware of it.
Also... faithful widower of 25 years. Wow. Yeah, he definitively should have gotten a life somewhere along the way, but still.
Last edited by Kendrix on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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I wanted to hold Tsubame more
I wanted to stay together forever with the boy I like
I wanted to hold Tsubame more
I wanted to stay together forever with the boy I like
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As a vaguely homosexual non-human, Kaworu was no doubt calling Gendo "father" with a bit of catty irony. As in "Hey, I'm gonna boink your son soon. See you at Thanksgiving." The unexpected fourteen years of isolation that followed took out some of his bite.
"Now, from Nature we obtain abundant information about ourselves, and precious little about others. About the woman you clasp in your arms, can you say with certainty that she does not feign pleasure? About the woman you mistreat, are you quite sure that from abuse she does not derive some obscure and lascivious satisfaction? Let us confine ourselves to simple evidence: through thoughtfulness, gentleness, concern for the feelings of others we saddle our own pleasure with restrictions, and make this sacrifice to obtain a doubtful result." -The Divine Marquis
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Probably irrelevant (and already mentioned somewhere), but I thought of this when Mari called Asuka 'Princess.'
If Gendo is King, Shinji is the Prince (and Rei somewhere between Princess and Queen?), which has its own implications about Mari's term of endearment.
While I don't think it's a big deal, I do think it's at least big enough that it wouldn't have been TOTALLY coincidental (i.e. Anno must have noticed the connection?). I think the natural assumption when someone calls someone Princess the way Mari did to Asuka is that they're calling the person bratty/lazy. But I wonder if it also/instead could be a reference to feelings Asuka had or has for Shinji, i.e. Shinji is the prince and Mari teases Asuka about wanting to be with him, thus making her Princess.
If Gendo is King, Shinji is the Prince (and Rei somewhere between Princess and Queen?), which has its own implications about Mari's term of endearment.
While I don't think it's a big deal, I do think it's at least big enough that it wouldn't have been TOTALLY coincidental (i.e. Anno must have noticed the connection?). I think the natural assumption when someone calls someone Princess the way Mari did to Asuka is that they're calling the person bratty/lazy. But I wonder if it also/instead could be a reference to feelings Asuka had or has for Shinji, i.e. Shinji is the prince and Mari teases Asuka about wanting to be with him, thus making her Princess.
~ *
It's a term of endearment from Mari. I'm sure they've had a lot of heart-to-hearts and crying together. You know, from the world ending. So they're really close friends now, and I'll bet Asuka's been telling her that even though Shinji did what he did, she really likes him and misses him and all kinds of complex emotional things. And anyway, it's clear to Mari that Asuka's got issues and a lot of them revolve around what Shinji's going to do.
So she tells him to man up and help her out, because Mari will be otherwise engaged with... whatever else she'll be doing. Best friends split up. So if Shinji doesn't change, Asuka will probably go completely insane and end up getting killed in some horrific fashion (again.)
It'd be cool to see some positive character development for once. But Anno is Anno.
So she tells him to man up and help her out, because Mari will be otherwise engaged with... whatever else she'll be doing. Best friends split up. So if Shinji doesn't change, Asuka will probably go completely insane and end up getting killed in some horrific fashion (again.)
It'd be cool to see some positive character development for once. But Anno is Anno.
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Re: [SPOILERS] Father/King
qu4d wrote:Kaworu called Gendo in 2.22 Father... this seemed to me to be somewhat of a close/near thing, like he knows him and stuff.
Now in 3.0 he calls him King of the Lilin, nothing of a son/father-relationship at all. To me he seemed to be very distant from him.
After watching 3.0 and looking back to the 2nd movie... any thoughts about the father quote?
Just curious.
I don't think you should take everything Kaworu says seriously...
He also tells Shinji that they are going to see each other again (right before dying). I don't even want to think about the implications that line could have. Therefore i pretend he said it for the sake of saying it. Just like the Father line.
Re: [SPOILERS] Father/King
Merior wrote:I don't think you should take everything Kaworu says seriously...
He also tells Shinji that they are going to see each other again (right before dying). I don't even want to think about the implications that line could have. Therefore i pretend he said it for the sake of saying it. Just like the Father line.
pretty obvious what he means. all those skulls. all those eva-shaped bloodstains. poor Shinji.
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Right before or after, purple dress man talks to gendo about Shinji not being aware of the sacrifice gendo has made include his soul, we see a shot to the box containing the nebuzz-sth key , seems to me that he grafted or will graft it, into this hand thus sacrificing his soul to it. and nebuz is a king so maybe kaworu noticed that and is adressing gendo as such.
about mari calling Asuka princess , as much as she complain about Shinji being pampered she was too, look all her belongings in 2.0, that fact Misato acomodates her schedule to Asuka whim. Refiting her eva (they could just stole a new one, like they did for mari).
i dont think it is a reference from Shinji status.
about mari calling Asuka princess , as much as she complain about Shinji being pampered she was too, look all her belongings in 2.0, that fact Misato acomodates her schedule to Asuka whim. Refiting her eva (they could just stole a new one, like they did for mari).
i dont think it is a reference from Shinji status.
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lclbloodtransfusion wrote:Probably irrelevant (and already mentioned somewhere), but I thought of this when Mari called Asuka 'Princess.'
If Gendo is King, Shinji is the Prince (and Rei somewhere between Princess and Queen?), which has its own implications about Mari's term of endearment.
While I don't think it's a big deal, I do think it's at least big enough that it wouldn't have been TOTALLY coincidental (i.e. Anno must have noticed the connection?). I think the natural assumption when someone calls someone Princess the way Mari did to Asuka is that they're calling the person bratty/lazy. But I wonder if it also/instead could be a reference to feelings Asuka had or has for Shinji, i.e. Shinji is the prince and Mari teases Asuka about wanting to be with him, thus making her Princess.
Very interesting theory!
Although I don't understand why Kaworu says "King of Lillin, Shinji-Kun's Father"
Why doesn't he simply say "King of Lillin, Ikari Gendo" ?
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Perhaps because he knows that in the end, Shinji is the one that matters.
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
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lclbloodtransfusion wrote:Probably irrelevant (and already mentioned somewhere), but I thought of this when Mari called Asuka 'Princess.'
If Gendo is King, Shinji is the Prince (and Rei somewhere between Princess and Queen?), which has its own implications about Mari's term of endearment.
While I don't think it's a big deal, I do think it's at least big enough that it wouldn't have been TOTALLY coincidental (i.e. Anno must have noticed the connection?). I think the natural assumption when someone calls someone Princess the way Mari did to Asuka is that they're calling the person bratty/lazy. But I wonder if it also/instead could be a reference to feelings Asuka had or has for Shinji, i.e. Shinji is the prince and Mari teases Asuka about wanting to be with him, thus making her Princess.
Since the "King" title has a hefty "of Lilin" stuck on the end of it, I would guess all the others would too. So since Rei isn't really a Lilin, I don't think she has a title (poor her). Neither does Kaworu, probably. If anyone was "Queen of Lilin", I would say it's probably Yui, her being Gendo's wife and all.
E̱͡v͈̙e͔̰̳͙r̞͍y͏̱̲̭͎̪ṱ͙̣̗̱͠h̰̰i͙n̶̮̟̳͍͍̫͓g̩ ̠͈en̶̖̹̪d̸̙̦͙̜͕͍̞s̸̰.̳̙̺̟̻̀
I always thought I might be bad
Now I know that it's true
Because I think you're so good
And I'm nothing like you
I always thought I might be bad
Now I know that it's true
Because I think you're so good
And I'm nothing like you
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Shinoyami65 wrote:Since the "King" title has a hefty "of Lilin" stuck on the end of it, I would guess all the others would too. So since Rei isn't really a Lilin, I don't think she has a title (poor her). Neither does Kaworu, probably. If anyone was "Queen of Lilin", I would say it's probably Yui, her being Gendo's wife and all.
Hm. That definitely makes sense. However, I'm thinking of it differently now.
Hypothetically if there were a queen, maybe it's not a matter of who Gendo's queen would be. Maybe Gendo is only a King because of who is Queen?
Lillith, being the progenitor of the Lillin, would be the true "Queen" of Lillin. While Yui never actually contained Lillith's soul (did she?), her clone Rei was meant to serve as the link between Gendo and Lillith. Rei, bearing Lilith's soul, simultaneously represents both the Queen of Lillin and Gendo Ikari's wife, unifying the two. If anything, the real Queen is Lillith herself, and Gendo's royal "status" seems more likely a result of that connection.
This creates a parallel with Kaworu and Gendo, as if it's the case, it makes Kaworu, being the bearer of Adam's soul, the King of Adam-based life. And, adorably, he wants Shinji, the prince of Lillin, to be his queen
~ *
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I don't think there's any connection between "princess" and "King" here.
God, Apparently you all have been discussing Q since November. Catching up on the discussion is harrowing.
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One thing about "King of the Lillin", is that when you go by the original meaning of the latter word (ie, demons) you get interesting implications.
Misato: We shall blow you up because you're the Antichrist! Your birthday is even on the 6/6, how didn't we notice before?
Shinji: ...Why me... *sob*
Misato: We shall blow you up because you're the Antichrist! Your birthday is even on the 6/6, how didn't we notice before?
Shinji: ...Why me... *sob*
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I wanted to stay together forever with the boy I like
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Kaworu looks nothing like Gendo or Shinji, and Shinji never shows any signs of associating Kaworu with Gendo in any way, shape or form.
I was worried this thread might follow the a downward Akira-esque spiral... Let's just be clear: Kaworu's clone donor is just as ambiguous as in the TV series, perhaps even more so.
E̱͡v͈̙e͔̰̳͙r̞͍y͏̱̲̭͎̪ṱ͙̣̗̱͠h̰̰i͙n̶̮̟̳͍͍̫͓g̩ ̠͈en̶̖̹̪d̸̙̦͙̜͕͍̞s̸̰.̳̙̺̟̻̀
I always thought I might be bad
Now I know that it's true
Because I think you're so good
And I'm nothing like you
I always thought I might be bad
Now I know that it's true
Because I think you're so good
And I'm nothing like you
I disagree, in NGE we never get Kaworu calling anyone "Father". Also the case of Rei in NGE, I don't recall them making the connection to Yui as clear as in NME, and Yui being Gendo's wife, and Rei being the same as Kaworu (a Seed of life's soul inside a cloned Lillin body) is more likely that Gendo is Kaworu's donor.
At least there are more things pointing in this direction in NME. It's way more ambiguous in NGE.
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K40s wrote:I disagree, in NGE we never get Kaworu calling anyone "Father". Also the case of Rei in NGE, I don't recall them making the connection to Yui as clear as in NME, and Yui being Gendo's wife, and Rei being the same as Kaworu (a Seed of life's soul inside a cloned Lillin body) is more likely that Gendo is Kaworu's donor.
At least there are more things pointing in this direction in NME. It's way more ambiguous in NGE.
Yes, but Gendo and Kaworu are nothing alike. Whereas Rei resembles Yui but with different hair and eyes, Kaworu looks nothing like Gendo or Shinji. Which totally defeats the idea of Kaworu being a clone of Gendo, since clones are meant to be identical to the original. Gendo and Kaworu have completely different skull/face shapes, different builds and different voices. Rei and Yui are practically identical besides hair colour and eye colour, and they even have the same voice (same voice actor). There is no evidence of Kaworu being a physical clone of Gendo.
E̱͡v͈̙e͔̰̳͙r̞͍y͏̱̲̭͎̪ṱ͙̣̗̱͠h̰̰i͙n̶̮̟̳͍͍̫͓g̩ ̠͈en̶̖̹̪d̸̙̦͙̜͕͍̞s̸̰.̳̙̺̟̻̀
I always thought I might be bad
Now I know that it's true
Because I think you're so good
And I'm nothing like you
I always thought I might be bad
Now I know that it's true
Because I think you're so good
And I'm nothing like you
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