Seele

[Atropos]

01:16:33 Even though all of you have changed the shape of your souls,
01:16:37 You are still lifeforms blessed with the Fruit of Knowledge.
01:16:41 You were able to live for eternity,
01:16:44 But, same as us, you still cannot escape the fate of death.
01:16:50 To advance the evolution of the flock burdened with death,
01:16:54 You had bestowed upon us the gift of civilization.
01:17:00 As the representative of humanity, I say thank you.
01:17:04 By death, we will return you to where they belong.
01:17:12 The long desired Human Instrumentality Project,
01:17:15 and the contracted deicide, will be completed by me.

On the one hand, he references the Fruit of Knowledge, which is a Lilin thing. But he also implies that they are something distinct and different from humankind. And hey, there are 12 of them...

[jimmiel]

What I got from that (on top of 2.22's Gendo South Pole chat) was that Rebuild-Seele did some soul-realigning - "changed the shape of [their] souls" thing in order to extend their natural lives in order to stick around long enough to see their whole world purification plan through. I'm not too clear on what soul placement means, exactly, but soul alignment seems to be a thing in Rebuild. Rei Q's was unsuitable for the Double Entry System because her soul was placed wrongly as a "Lilin imitation".

"You are still lifeforms blessed with the Fruit of Knowledge" - you're humans, but humans that have metaphysically shifted into much longer-lived beings by messing around with their souls. Part of this no doubt manifests itself in their existing as monoliths.

[AilesGrises]

What I took from that (and connecting it to stuff from the original, specifically EoE and Keel's remains) is that SEELE is formed by, in plainest terms, humans who went full-cyborg. Basically brains in jars. Or here, (artificial?) brains inside monoliths (notice the patterns that show up on the numbered monoliths when Gendo is shutting them down - they vaguely look like "x-rayed" brain and upper spine).

There are parallels between the Fruit of Knowledge and technology. I'm inclined to say it's just a fancy way of saying just that. Or what jimmiel said, which seems to be more or less the same thing.

[slothen]

What I took from that (and connecting it to stuff from the original, specifically EoE and Keel's remains) is that SEELE is formed by, in plainest terms, humans who went full-cyborg. Basically brains in jars. Or here, (artificial?) brains inside monoliths (notice the patterns that show up on the numbered monoliths when Gendo is shutting them down - they vaguely look like "x-rayed" brain and upper spine).

There are parallels between the Fruit of Knowledge and technology. I'm inclined to say it's just a fancy way of saying just that. Or what jimmiel said, which seems to be more or less the same thing.

mm, i noticed the brain thing too. Humans that went full cyborg makes way more since than any other explanation.

[arkiel]

I thought they were some kind of precursor race, either FAR equivalent in Rebuildverse or an earlier iteration of Lilith-begat life.

The business about living for eternity can be connected to the Curse of Eva, right?

I also reached the conclusion that the Wunder was a piece of their technology, but the subs are probably too rough to be confident about that.

[Azathoth]

When Mark 09 attempts to merge with/hijack the Wunder, Ritsuko says something about Wunder returning to its former master - she's referring to the Adams' Vessel specifically (that is to say, Mark 09). And then Rei Q's entry plug is all full of SEELE logos or some shit. Man, this movie's ending is a clusterfuck.

e. and then in the next line Asuka specifically points to SEELE being at fault here. So yeah, Misato stole Wunder from them.

[Reichu]

I also reached the conclusion that the Wunder was a piece of their technology, but the subs are probably too rough to be confident about that.

The language isn't particularly ambiguous about Mark.09 being Wunder's "original master". I'm not particularly sold on Seele being responsible for Wunder; I think this guy is onto something.

In general, I have no idea what to make of this Seele "starting civilization and living forever" stuff. It's something I have to mull over considerably... At the rate things are going, the final answer could be more weird than anything we could reasonably expect right now.

and then in the next line Asuka specifically points to SEELE being at fault here. So yeah, Misato stole Wunder from them.

You talking about when Asuka tries to shoot Mark.09 in the core, finds out that there's a special plate in the way, and comments, "Talk about cheap! That's Seele's style, all right!"?

[Atropos]

I see. Thanks for clarifying.

[jimmiel]

I still think it's more metaphysical than cybernetic. Gendo claims they gave them civilisation, and implies they've been around forever. Even if they rigged something to do with LCL, robotics hasn't been around long enough... probably... to account for Seele's extremely long lifespans. The line about changing the shape of their souls makes me think that way in the past, they - with knowledge of the Dead Sea Scrolls and so on - as ordinary Lilin did some sort of thing to drastically extend their lifespans, while still staying within the confines of "humanity" in order to enact their whole plan thing.
Have we seen any Seele members in the flesh in Rebuild? My personal theory is that changing the shape of their souls left them with crappy bodies (reminding me of the Curse of Eva, too) and they leaped on robotics technology when it came around.

[Darkwing]

Wow the Gazel minestry from Xenogears always reminded me of Seele. Now Seele is reminding me of the Gazel Minestry. Full circle.

[Reichu]

I still think it's more metaphysical than cybernetic. (...) robotics hasn't been around long enough... probably... to account for Seele's extremely long lifespans.

A weird and perhaps completely off-base notion that occurred to me is that perhaps Seele utilized bizarro alien technology to achieve the brain-in-a-jar effect much sooner than would have been possible if they relied on Lilin technological advancement.

Like, maybe the monoliths are an actual thing now in the Eva universe, to take the 2001 reference full circle. Maybe there were twelve of them that arrived on Earth with... whatever else came from Another World, and they were scattered across the planet so that twelve individuals of our species would encounter them in our pre-civilization days. The monoliths passed on the wisdom of Ancient Aliens to these twelve people, and divinely inspired them to use their Fruits of Knowledge to the fullest and cut that nomadic tribe shit right the hell out (...I have nothing against nomadic tribes). And somehow their souls became bonded to these monoliths, and continued to exist within the objects even after their bodies passed away, so that they could continue to preside over everything they had started... in an ominously helpless sort of way. Requiring that a cult exist around them in order for anything to get done after their bodies croak.

I just pulled that out of my mental mists; do with it as ya'll please.

[jimmiel]

Good point on the alien technology, and I kind of like the rest of what you've written. It fits with what we know about Rebuild, at least thus far. Except your xenophobic cultural elitist condemnation of nomadic tribes; what'd they ever do to you?

I guess I just feel is that, similar to NGE, they're more about interpreting the Dead Sea Scrolls for their own ideas than following a directly divinely-informed path ("We believe the gods will this" rather than "The gods told us to do this"). And the way Gendo talks to them seems more like they're zealots than legitimate apostles/messengers. Though they do seem to look over humanity more (misguidedly, according to Gendo) judgementally and separately in NME than contemptuously (and with themselves as part of it) as in NGE, so who knows?

[slothen]

please remind me what NME stands for.

And Reich, that's craziness.

Jimmiel, there's no reason to doubt that robotics has enabled them to extend their lives. "Robotics hasn't been around long enough" seems kind of silly considering the territory.

[K40s]

brains inside monoliths (notice the patterns that show up on the numbered monoliths when Gendo is shutting them down - they vaguely look like "x-rayed" brain and upper spine).

Isn't Fujutzuki turning some pylon things (reminds me of jet alone) while Gendo is giving a monologue?

SPOILER: Show

Also the monoliths show more details:
1) a weird logo on the back:

SPOILER: Show

2) a face:

SPOILER: Show

3) the brain

SPOILER: Show

[Reichu]

And Reich, that's craziness.

Meaning it has an above average chance of being on the right track, considering how zany these films are.

NME is an acronym for New Movie Edition, that has the bonus of sounding like "enemy" if you say it out loud.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

So, let me get this straight; in NME, the Seele monoliths are sentient, instead of being merely sound-only projections of other people?

[Reichu]

So, let me get this straight; in NME, the Seele monoliths are sentient, instead of being merely sound-only projections of other people?

I'm not sure I would bother throwing the word "sentient" around. (Are the monoliths themselves capable of sensory perception? Does it really matter?) It's perhaps simplest to say that Seele actually ARE the monoliths this time around, instead of simply using the monoliths to represent themselves.

[jimmiel]

Jimmiel, there's no reason to doubt that robotics has enabled them to extend their lives. That"Robotics hasn't been around long enough" seems kind of silly considering the territory.

01:16:33 Even though all of you have changed the shape of your souls,
01:16:37 You are still lifeforms blessed with the Fruit of Knowledge.
01:16:41 You were able to live for eternity,
01:16:50 To advance the evolution of the flock burdened with death,
01:16:54 You had bestowed upon us the gift of civilization.

The reason given is that they have changed the shape of their souls, robotics isn't mentioned in the scene. Also, if we were talking something like Victorian England, we could refer to Eva's significant steampunk influence and chalk it up to anachronistic alternate history technology, but according to Gendo they've literally been around before civilisation.

Metaphysical soul alteration explicitly, alien technology maybe, LCL plausibly, but if we're buying what Gendo's saying then human-based robotic enhancement as the prime cause of Seele's longevity all this time is not supported.

[Reichu]

LCL plausibly

Why? I'm guessing you're referring to the now-practically-fanon "Curse of Eva = LCL Exposure", but this isn't supported by the films at all, whereas the "core depth" theory actually has something going for it.

[jimmiel]

I was mainly going off "mystical plot substance/primordial soup" thing. Ooh - LCL held together by AT Fields, which are the light of the soul, which Seele has changed the shape of.

Downgrade it to "vaguely possible maybe", if you like.