Lack of cores in Lilith and Lilith-based lifeforms solved?

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Lack of cores in Lilith and Lilith-based lifeforms solved?

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Postby Electreel » Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:10 pm

Hi everyone! ^_^ I´m a new member of this forum, though I have been visiting it for a very long time.
I´d like to introduce an idea of mine. Some time ago I read Reichu´s interesting theory about the Dirac Sea being an analogue of "Paradise" in the NGE´s universe and its correlation with the cores present on the angels and EVAs http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/6431/EoE-Instrumentality-101/20/? http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/6431/EoE-Instrumentality-101/40/?

Now, in Jewish folklore Lilith leaves Paradise after being forced to abide both Adam´s and God´s orders. If we take into account Reichu´s theory, could this be the reason why Lilith and Lilim lack cores?
While I don´t think this quite relevant since NGE´s universe is just a mash-up of different religious references, I would like to know your opinion. I´m sorry if this topic has already been brought up or if it doesn´t make any sense at all.

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Postby Reichu » Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:41 am

I don't think the extremely loose "Sea of LCL as 'Paradise'" metaphor provides any kind of explanation for why some beings have cores and some don't. In NGE, what "Paradise" ultimately is is the state of nonentity ("it all returns to nothing") prior to being born -- before one is burdened with the pain of being an individual who must navigate the world and other people.

Despite the implied connection between S2 engines and cores, and a dimensional space from which souls and LCL originate, Angels are no more "spiritually complete" than Lilin. The Fruit of Life lets them get away with solitary existences (i.e., they can exist without relying on anyone else), but they still feel the pain of loneliness. As long as they're human individuals, with bodies and A.T. Fields and the works, "Paradise" will be just a dream (stated by Kaworu as the compulsion to return to Adam, the Mother), and not the reality.

As for actually explaining the whole core business: The NGE2 CI presents the idea that Evas, at least, have cores because it somehow removes the discrepancies between the god!body and the human!soul. (I know how funny that sounds; I really need to look at the original Japanese for that bit again.) Maybe we can do something with this, and apply it onto all "gods" that have souls that are ultimately derived from the First Ancestral Race.

Perhaps cores were first implemented with Seeds of Life because they made it possible to "bind" the souls of mortal FAR onto the artificial gods. (This means that Lilith had a core to start with.*) Adam implemented them in her offspring, due to the Angels all being, in a sense, artificial gods themselves, similarly imbued with the souls of former FAR. For the Lilin, cores were not necessary, because they were not "gods", but "mortals" similar to what the FAR themselves had been.

And for beings with the Fruit of Life (S2 Engine), the core provides a nice container. Perhaps the core is also responsible for providing the S2 Engine's energy to the body in a usable form. Such a property would explain how Nerv can feed raw electricity to the Evas: it's actually being channeled into the core and put to use from there.


* The idea isn't too far-fetched, considering the whole "Eva-01 is a Lilith clone" tidbit directly suggests that Lilith looked like Adam or an Eva at one point. Whatever happened to Lilith's core (if anything), it's possible that she has one again in EoE, symbolically represented as a red moon that a gazillion Rei are converging towards.
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Postby Monk Ed » Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:21 am

Reichu, all of that sounds like a pretty massive turn of opinion. These are the kinds of things I (and others) used to say must be the case -- whereas you (and probably others?) were on the other side arguing that Eva-01 might have been a clone of Adam merely birthed by Lilith as a way to explain the resemblance between Eva-01 and Adam.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:43 am

View Original PostMonk Ed wrote:Reichu, all of that sounds like a pretty massive turn of opinion.

I don't think much of it. Something clicked one day. I realized that the old "Lilith was used as a surrogate womb to grow an Adam clone" fanwank was totally unnecessary, and, in fact, much more explanatory power was gained by replacing it with "Lilith's intrinsic form is something along the lines of Adam or an Eva; hence why Eva-01 looks like the Adam clones". It's possible that people had been telling me this all along, but it's one thing to be told it's so and another thing to form those neuronal circuits for yourself.

Yes, I realize that the notion that I ever revise my opinion flies in the face of all known Internet wisdom regarding Aspies.

By the way, I'm pretty sure you're only referring to a small portion of my post as a "massive turn of opinion", but maybe some quoted text would help here...
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Postby Monk Ed » Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:20 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:I don't think much of it. Something clicked one day. I realized that the old "Lilith was used as a surrogate womb to grow an Adam clone" fanwank was totally unnecessary, and, in fact, much more explanatory power was gained by replacing it with "Lilith's intrinsic form is something along the lines of Adam or an Eva; hence why Eva-01 looks like the Adam clones". It's possible that people had been telling me this all along, but it's one thing to be told it's so and another thing to form those neuronal circuits for yourself.

When did this happen? I feel like I was a part of a topic not too long ago, maybe as recently as this past summer, where the old Eva-01-is-also-a-clone-of-Adam business was brought up again, and I feel like you were part of it too but I could be wrong.

Yes, I realize that the notion that I ever revise my opinion flies in the face of all known Internet wisdom regarding Aspies.

I didn't realize there was any stereotype about Aspies and their opinions. Mine seem to change all the time.
By the way, I'm pretty sure you're only referring to a small portion of my post as a "massive turn of opinion", but maybe some quoted text would help here...

Not sure why I said "all". I typed the post very quickly. It looks like I really was referring to just a small part.
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Postby Replicator » Tue Jan 01, 2013 10:30 am

In EoE, Rei is shown entering the solar plexus of Lilith, where a core may have been located. Either that, or GNR was able to generate one from the Adam embryo. (Note, the Adam embryo does not appear to have a core-like feature)

And it's even unclear if all of Adam's Children have physical cores. Leliel and Armisael lack the reddish organ that most of their siblings use, so the way an AT Field is involved in developing an Angel must preclude possessing a spherical core organ in the traditional sense. Bardiel may have been able to just spawn an S2 Engine inside of Unit-03's core, (but 2.0 mentions "a core-like substance" which may cast doubt on all Angel cores being spherical in shape)

As for the debate on Unit-01's genetic origin, nothing has been said to prove disprove each theory in its entirety. Assuming that Lilith and Adam being equivalent beings as SoL, maybe the FAR had the real say in what type of offspring each would produce, that had little bearing on the physical forms of the Seeds themselves. (Souls stored in the White or Black Moon?)

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Postby Reichu » Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:04 pm

Replicator: Lilith is distinct from all other humanoid "gods" in NGE in that there is no core displayed prominently in the solar plexus, which does make it suspect as to whether she has one at all. At that point in time, anyway.

The Adam embryo might not have a core-like feature because it doesn't have a soul. Possibly related: the Evas are created soulless and apparently require cores to be grown separately and implanted after the fact.

Leliel actually does have what appears to be a core lurking beneath the hyper-thin black body, which we see shattering when Eva-01 is breaking out of the striped "shadow". It looks broad and flat instead of round, but, then, Leliel is four-dimensional or something.

As far as Bardiel goes: They seemed to be going with the "Angel develops a weird-shaped core inside the entry plug" as early as NGE, even though it wasn't blatantly stated. There's the fact that Eva-01 targeted the entry plug in order to destroy the Angel, plus, when they're fishing Toji out, the entry plug interior is distinctly red.

Armisael is weird, so I got nothing.

Far as the "Eva-01's genetic origins" thing goes, well, people are still free to believe the "surrogate" theory if it makes sense to them. I unleashed it onto the world, and me not buying into it anymore doesn't automatically redact it or anything. But I think it was born of a failure to accept what was basically spelled out in the show (Eva-01 being "Lilith's bunshin" in the same way that Eva-02 is "Adam's bunshin"), making alternative explanations much more desirable.

Monk Ed: Going to hide this since it's kind of OT.

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View Original PostMonk Ed wrote:When did this happen?

As far as I can recall, the turn-over was happening gradually in my head. I might have still mentioned the "surrogate" theory here and there, but I was already starting to doubt the need for it. Then, one day, the stars align and I'm perfectly happy leaving my old pet theory in a ditch to rot. I can't give you any dates, because (A) my memory is terrible about those things, and (B) I don't care enough to drudge through the archives and guesstimate.

I didn't realize there was any stereotype about Aspies and their opinions. Mine seem to change all the time.

Well, we're generally known for being stubborn and resistant to change and all. Might be that I'm projecting my own familial experience onto things. My nuclear relatives see fit to regularly comment on all the ways I've changed since I was younger, both behaviorally and in world outlook, and how they never expected such change would be possible on account of my disability. Anyway... it's complicated, and I guess if we want to explore this further there's the Asperger's thread or PMs or something.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:35 pm

I don't understand the point in having them look different in the series. Lilith looking like Adam would have actually explained Kaworu's actions.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

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Postby Electreel » Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:22 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Perhaps cores were first implemented with Seeds of Life because they made it possible to "bind" the souls of mortal FAR onto the artificial gods. (This means that Lilith had a core to start with.*) Adam implemented them in her offspring, due to the Angels all being, in a sense, artificial gods themselves, similarly imbued with the souls of former FAR. For the Lilin, cores were not necessary, because they were not "gods", but "mortals" similar to what the FAR themselves had been.

And for beings with the Fruit of Life (S2 Engine), the core provides a nice container. Perhaps the core is also responsible for providing the S2 Engine's energy to the body in a usable form. Such a property would explain how Nerv can feed raw electricity to the Evas: it's actually being channeled into the core and put to use from there.

See, that makes much more sense. If I´ve learnt something during all of this time is not to extrapolate NGE events directly from religious lore.
I´m still not sure about Shogouki´s Lilith origin - to me it´s one of the prickliest topics in the whole series. Though it may have been implied in RoE that Lilith actually had a core, she still looks way too different from the EVA´s (and probably Adam´s) general appearence: well defined anatomy, layered head, presence of the "angel face", etc.
I don´t know, maybe I´m neglecting the fact that these uber beings are able to radically morph themselves...

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Postby Reichu » Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:01 pm

Electreel: I doubt we'll ever have a real explanation for why Lilith looks so funny, and has the physical constitution of putty or taffy, but we can possibly work around "the fact that these uber beings are able to radically morph themselves".

My own fanwank for Lilith is that her physique and constitution are a consequence of her entire body turning into an "LCL gate", capable of channeling the mysterious life-fluid out of the LCL Sea via her bloodstream, for the purpose of more effectively carrying out the "Fruit of Knowledge"-Based Life Start-Up Program. It's implied that cores, with their connection to the Dirac Sea, also channel LCL, so perhaps this somehow goes toward explaining why Lilith has no identifiable core. That is, what Lilith's body became was, in effect, one giant core, and as a result the original spherical core was rendered defunct and "absorbed" into the entirety. (If some of that makes absolutely no sense, I can try to explain a little better... -o-; )

Of course, that doesn't explain why she's a fat blob of putty specifically... but do what you can, eh? I suspect that the "real explanation" lies somewhere in Rule of Cool territory ("a bulbous white masked taffy-armed legless thing on a cross that turns into what looks like a fat crucified guy in a white gimp-suit endlessly pissing himself = creepy, weird, and cool; let's put it on screen right away!").

Though it may have been implied in RoE that Lilith actually had a core

One continuity at a time, now.
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Postby Electreel » Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:47 pm

Reichu: It does make a lot of sense to me! A former Adam-like Lilith could have switched into a mere "channeler" of LCL and souls, thus reabsorbing its core and turning into an inanimate marshmallow man. Am I right? :grin:

One continuity at a time, now.

I didn´t understand that, sorry, I´m not that good at English -o-;

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Postby Reichu » Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:58 pm

View Original PostElectreel wrote:Am I right? :grin:

Well, if it made some sense to you, then I guess I did something right! :smirk:

I didn´t understand that, sorry, I´m not that good at English -o-;

Oh, no problem. NGE is one "continuity" of the Evangelion universe, and NME / Rebuild is another. Lilith's chest scar, which is only present in the new movies, doesn't provide any directly useful information regarding Lilith in NGE.
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Postby Electreel » Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:17 pm

Oh, no problem. NGE is one "continuity" of the Evangelion universe, and NME / Rebuild is another. Lilith's chest scar, which is only present in the new movies, doesn't provide any directly useful information regarding Lilith in NGE.


Oh, of course! I know Rebuild is vastly different from NGE in many respects.

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Postby EvaBrothers » Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:54 am

I might have lost some of this thread along the way, so the following might be a funny conjecture, but...

... when I first watched EoE and I saw Lilith/Rei with a floating Black Moon between her hands, I thought that was her core; since Lilith was after all origin and the end of Lilin souls (if LCL comes from her, and humans eventually turn into LCL the day of the 3I, I see a connection there).

But it's been a while since I last watched the series and EoE, so just take all of the above as a thought.
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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:15 pm

View Original PostEvaBrothers wrote:I might have lost some of this thread along the way, so the following might be a funny conjecture, but...

... when I first watched EoE and I saw Lilith/Rei with a floating Black Moon between her hands, I thought that was her core; since Lilith was after all origin and the end of Lilin souls (if LCL comes from her, and humans eventually turn into LCL the day of the 3I, I see a connection there).

But it's been a while since I last watched the series and EoE, so just take all of the above as a thought.

That's an interesting theory. Following that note, after the MPEs have impaled themselves, the spears explode into LCL when Shinji pops out of GNR's eyeball and rejects instrumentality. It sheds new light onto the core's purpose to store the life of an angel, since humans are the 18th angel.

Of course, relating to the original forum topic, it's possible that the black moon acts as a shared core for the Lilim.

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Postby Reichu » Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:04 pm

I don't think "the Black Moon is Lilith's core" explains a whole lot. Adam had the White Moon, but still possessed a traditional core. (On a similar note, the souls of Adam's children had "boarded" the White Moon long ago, but they all, too, have their own cores.)
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Postby nervshatter » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:41 pm

Call me a noob but I always thought the heart was kinda like the core in humans.
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Postby Agentomega » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:25 am

Eh, I think it goes back to the whole "Fruit of Wisdom" "Fruit of Life" thing. Angels get the Fruit of Life (the core), and humans get the Fruit of Wisdom (the brain).
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Postby Shinoyami65 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:29 am

My hypothesis was that in humans the soul does not require a physical container, hence the absence of a core. While the Angels and Evas apparently require the core to carry the Fruit of Life and the soul, and the soul is desroyed or released after the destruction of the core, human souls seemingly don't leave the body after death in the NGE continuity, as the human body continues to retain its form even after death (removal of the soul would cause the collapse of the AT Field, reducing the body to tang). Destroying an individual's heart or brain kills them, but the soul remains within the body. Thus it's possible the soul is somehow bound to the body metaphysically, preventing the body from tanging even if physical damage is inflicted to it.
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:55 am

I still think it's a mistake to assume that Lilith has no core/S2 (one NGE2 route notwithstanding in the latter case). Whatever she has obviously isn't like that of the other god-entities we see in the show, but that doesn't change the fact that she existed unchanged for more than three billion years, nor that she initiated and (apparently) completed First Impact at that time, nor that she managed to pull off 3I during EoE. We can fanwank some of that away, yes, but the preponderance of evidence suggests that, even if she doesn't a core/S2, she can still replicate the effects of both.

Taking a note from the NME, perhaps all of Lilith is a core? Perhaps her entire body is an S2 organ? Wild ideas, but there's no getting past the fact that she's done her job successfully in the past. That means something has to be going on there. Far easier, IMO, to assume Lilith has these things and is just fucking weird than that she doesn't and is somehow doing all of Adam's tricks anyway.
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