Most Accurate Translation for The End of Evangelion

[Mjolnir Mark IV]

I've been working feverishly for the past week trying to put together a new set of English subtitles for the End of Evangelion by combining existing translations.

Because my Japanese is so limited, the thing I need most right now is an accurate translation that doesn't try to embellish so I can use it as my main source. Ideally, it would include both the literal and figurative meanings when there is a difference between the two. And in a perfect world, it would have notes explaining the nuances and idioms of the original Japanese lines that are difficult to translate or easy to misinterpret, or at the very least call attention to them...all while taking into consideration both the spoken dialog from the film, and the written dialog from the original script.

Does such a thing exist?

If not, what is the most highly regarded, accurate, and reputable translation that does exist? Is there one in particular that is generally considered the best? If not, which one do you consider your personal favorite?

Right now the file I'm working on is for my own private use, but if I get the translator's permission, I will gladly release it and give credit.

[Ornette]

You can try following this thread from about here

[Mjolnir Mark IV]

Thanks! (I actually found that topic before creating this one, but quickly discarded it on account of its title.)

So then I take it Brendan Jamieson's version at [url]http://www.evaotaku.com/[/url] is regarded as the most reputable? I have yet to read the whole thing, but here's one line that caught my eye:

"Unidentified object approaching at high-speed from the outer atmosphere."

It is my completely amateur understanding that while the Japanese Rōma ji for "high speed" and "speed of light" is identical (kōsoku), the Kanji are different.

高速
high speed

光速
speed of light

How are we to know "kōsoku" doesn't refer to "light speed" in this case? It is moving insanely fast, after all. And in the leaked Japanese script at [url]http://wiki.evageeks.org/Resources:End_of_Evangelion_Screenplays_%28Episode_26%27%29[/url], 亜光速 is used ("sub-light speed"). This gives me reason to believe "high speed" could be a mistranslation.

This is how I currently have it translated for the version I'm working on:

"Unidentified object from lunar space, approaching at subluminal speed!"

[Reichu]

The final script uses 高速. The screenplay is not typo-free; it was probably typed up manually from its original analogue format.

[riffraff11235]

How are we to know "kōsoku" doesn't refer to "light speed" in this case?

Considering that light only takes about 1.25 seconds to travel the distance between the Earth and the Moon, I would go with "high speed". Had the Spear been traveling at the speed of light, it would have reached Eva-01 before the technicians could even react to it.

[Mjolnir Mark IV]

The final script uses 高速. The screenplay is not typo-free; it was probably typed up manually from its original analogue format.

Okay, thanks for clarifying that. I was aware of some differences with the leaked script but have no way of verifying the final script. Has anyone been able to verify whether or not there are any differences at all between the final script and the spoken dialog from the film?

Considering that light only takes about 1.25 seconds to travel the distance between the Earth and the Moon, I would go with "high speed". Had the Spear been traveling at the speed of light, it would have reached Eva-01 before the technicians could even react to it.

I actually thought that through and came to the same conclusion before starting this topic. That's why I put "subluminal speed" in my version (see the bottom of my previous post). I never said anything about the meaning of the line suggesting the object was moving at light speed, but I can see how you could misinterpret that. What I was saying was that the word kōsoku itself could refer to light speed. I was hoping some abbreviated form of 亜 was somewhere in the spoken dialog or final script, which would make the whole scene make sense since the object wouldn't actually be traveling as fast as the speed of light, even if 光速 was used.

But given what Reichu just said, I have no choice but to change the line I have.

[Reichu]

Has anyone been able to verify whether or not there are any differences at all between the final script and the spoken dialog from the film?

I can't say I've sat down and checked the whole movie line by line or anything -- you can do that if you really want to ;p -- but by all indications the EoE script on the Japanese DVDs is what the seiyuu used for their line readings. (DC episodes 21' and 22' use outdated scripts for the DVD extras for some reason, but since you only care about EoE that won't be a problem.)

[Mjolnir Mark IV]

I can't say I've sat down and checked the whole movie line by line or anything -- you can do that if you really want to ;p -- but by all indications the EoE script on the Japanese DVDs is what the seiyuu used for their line readings. (DC episodes 21' and 22' use outdated scripts for the DVD extras for some reason, but since you only care about EoE that won't be a problem.)

Thanks for mentioning that, it might come in handy if I ever feel the compulsion to comb through the series. And I would probably comb through the movie if I had a version I could copy and paste into Google Translate, otherwise I'll be hunched in front of my computer til I'm old and gray.

I've only just gone through the first four minutes of the film, comparing Bochan_bird/Brendan Jamieson's translation, and already found some very disheartening cues that this probably isn't the translation I'm looking for.

I... I'm scared of both Misato and Ayanami...

Why the slow stutter? I hear no indication of that in the film.

Hey... Wake up! Come on... Wake up!
Come on... Hey... Asuka... Asuka... Asuka!!

Shinji is only using one word for "Hey" and "Come on", so why give it two translations?

I... I'm scum... (Lit: I'm the lowest...)

Again, why the slow stuttering?

What!? A total ban on access to and from Headquarters!?

There's no "what" preceding her sentence.

Do these sort of discrepancies continue throughout the rest of the translation? Does anyone know if he used the script alone as opposed to the script with the spoken dialog?

[Reichu]

You're using this level of nitpickery to assess the overall quality of a translation? Oh dear...

It's a tempting thing to do when you're just starting out. I've been there and done that, myself, and at one point even invited bochan_bird's disdain upon myself with my "greenhorn who thinks she knows everything" attitude.

Translation is part science and part art. From the sound of things, you need to spend a bit more time with Japanese itself, and learning about general translation principles, before you can even contemplate a prospect like assembling the "best subtitles" for anything, let alone something of EoE's complexity and ambiguity.

[Mjolnir Mark IV]

You're using this level of nitpickery to assess the overall quality of a translation? Oh dear...

Not quite. I'm scrutinizing it for accuracy, not quality. Accuracy is just one aspect of the overall quality, but maybe we're just using different words for the same thing.

Translation is part science and part art. From the sound of things, you need to spend a bit more time with Japanese itself, and learning about general translation principles, before you can even contemplate a prospect like assembling the "best subtitles" for anything, let alone something of EoE's complexity and ambiguity.

I get what you're saying, but that's exactly why I'm asking questions in the first place. Maybe you mistook those questions for rhetoric (that would be an understandable misinterpretation). But I do genuinely want to know. Would you be able to answer at least the questions I asked for the lines of dialog in my previous post? Or if you want, could you choose other examples (any lines of translation from the film) that you think better illustrate whatever it is I don't understand?

Again, I'm looking for an accurate translation that distinguishes the literal meaning from the figurative meaning when there is a difference. To use your words, I'm looking for a translation that distinguishes science from art, because the art is the part I want to do. I understand a good translation has to embellish or it just won't sound right, but that's the part I want to do, which is why I'm looking for a version that doesn't embellish or one that tells me when it does. Otherwise, I can't tell which words are there because they're integral to the meaning, and which ones are there simply to make the whole thing sound more natural and coherent (or even just pleasing to the ears).

Also, I have made no claim of assembling the "best subtitles". What is best will always be subjective. I'm simply combining existing translations so I can have my personal favorite.

[Reichu]

Not quite. I'm scrutinizing it for accuracy, not quality.

The nitpicks you made are pretty much on the level of "tiny little things that can be easily altered at the proofreading stage".

- How much "stuttering" to include written out?: It's a stylistic thing and easy to fiddle with. It can affect tone and readability, but has only the most marginal effect on meaning. Note that in at least some of your nitpicks, "stuttering" is used to break apart the sentence in a way roughly equivalent to the original Japanese, when there is no other way to create that verbal "gap".
- Including interjections that aren't actually there: Again, just a tonal thing. You might be scratching your head over "why did the translator put that there?". It could be as simple as a "brain fart" that wasn't caught -- who knows? Easy to fix.
- Translating the same term in different ways if it's being repeated in quick succession: Just an artistic choice, and nothing wrong with it at all. It avoids redundancy that can sound awkward in English. And "accuracy" isn't an issue per se, because there is almost never just one mechanistic way to translate a particular unit of language.

IMO, the kinds of problems that you need to be worrying about are the ones where a line's fundamental meaning are concerned. Bochan_bird's script does have some genuine problems of varying severity when it comes to some of the weirder dialogue in the movie, but, then, EoE is so weird that I don't think any translation can completely escape sin in this regard.

As for your mission: Thanks for clarifying wherever I misunderstood. I'll have to disappoint you, though: There's no translation for EoE that does what you're looking for. Something like that would be a good long-term project for our wiki, though the necessary combination of motivation and manpower for such things can be a bit elusive.

[Mjolnir Mark IV]

Thank you for clarifying. This is very helpful! I do have a few questions based on your answers.

Note that in at least some of your nitpicks, "stuttering" is used to break apart the sentence in a way roughly equivalent to the original Japanese, when there is no other way to create that verbal "gap".

With this verbal "gap" in the original Japanese, are you referring to the line of dialog as written, or the line of dialog as spoken? I'm assuming spoken since you used the word verbal; just clarifying.

IMO, the kinds of problems that you need to be worrying about are the ones where a line's fundamental meaning are concerned. Bochan_bird's script does have some genuine problems of varying severity when it comes to some of the weirder dialogue in the movie, but, then, EoE is so weird that I don't think any translation can completely escape sin in this regard.

Understandable. Have these "genuine problems" been documented? More importantly, now that you have a good idea of what I'm looking for, do you think Bochan_bird's translation is the best existing source to use in my case?

As for your mission: Thanks for clarifying wherever I misunderstood. I'll have to disappoint you, though: There's no translation for EoE that does what you're looking for. Something like that would be a good long-term project for our wiki, though the necessary combination of motivation and manpower for such things can be a bit elusive.

Completely understandable. I was skeptical it existed but wanted to ask to make sure. I am grateful to have what there is.

- Translating the same term in different ways if it's being repeated in quick succession: Just an artistic choice, and nothing wrong with it at all. It avoids redundancy that can sound awkward in English.

I saved this one for last because it's not as important, but I'm curious about your opinion. Do you think there are parts of the film that benefit from the redundancy? There are certain parts where I think the repeated lines help to convey a sense of hysteria and desperation brought on by the overwhelming emotion the character is going through in that moment.

Examples including, but not limited to:

SPOILER: Show

Asuka saying she doesn't want to die over and over again before Unit 02 activates in the lake.
Asuka saying "I'll kill you" again and again just before being turned into shishkabob.

[Reichu]

With this verbal "gap" in the original Japanese, are you referring to the line of dialog as written, or the line of dialog as spoken?

Well, while I did say "verbal"... It can be both, to be honest. Ellipsis or comma in the script; brief pause in the performance. Like when Shinji talks about what scum he is (written in the script as "Saitei da... ore 'tte").

Understandable. Have these "genuine problems" been documented? More importantly, now that you have a good idea of what I'm looking for, do you think Bochan_bird's translation is the best existing source to use in my case?

There's no documentation beyond what crops up in forum discussions. (The thread that Ornette linked might be relevant to your interests.)

I personally use bochan_bird's transcript as a "base" because, on the whole, I don't think it needs an overwhelming amount of fixing up. I don't always agree with his choices, and there are perhaps a couple of actual errors that I've noticed, but given the difficulty of the material he did a great job. He's also a professional translator, and consequently is able to convey the meaning while avoiding amateurish, stilted prose.

Your best bet is probably to collect as many translations as you can find, and do good ol' "compare and contrast". If you notice an unusual discrepancy, then it's worth looking into.

Do you think there are parts of the film that benefit from the redundancy?

Of course. The examples you cited are good ones.

[Mjolnir Mark IV]

Well, while I did say "verbal"... It can be both, to be honest. Ellipsis or comma in the script; brief pause in the performance. Like when Shinji talks about what scum he is (written in the script as "Saitei da... ore 'tte").

I think my own creative preference is to let the voice acting carry the tone and inflection as much as possible, and to only impart any sense of such tone or inflection in instances where doing otherwise would change the intended meaning or underlying emotion.

Your best bet is probably to collect as many translations as you can find, and do good ol' "compare and contrast". If you notice an unusual discrepancy, then it's worth looking into.

The same realization has been dawning in my mind, so I think this is good advice! Thank you for all your help!

If anyone else would like to share their opinions about what's been discussed, I would love to hear more.

[Mr. Tines]

There is always some information loss in translation as there are different sets of associations between words in the different cultures -- as the Italians put it, "Traditore, tradutore".

There is quite a notorious one in EoE, a line that was rendered in an early English fansub out of China as "I know you only think of me as food!", which when more directly literally translated would be "I know you've been using me as a side-dish!"

An idiomatic translation of the immediate meaning of the line into English loses all the culinary associations from the Japanese.

[Mjolnir Mark IV]

Does anyone know of a Japanese script more complete than this one?

http://www002.upp.so-net.ne.jp/jsrc/dust/theend.html

It's been invaluable, but there are many lines of dialog missing. Has anyone transcribed these missing lines?

On top of that, I've even caught a few lines that are incorrect. So if anyone knows of a more accurate version, please let me know.

For those interested in the status of my project, I'm in the final stages. I've gone through the entire script mentioned above. The subtitles are done, but there are a few difficult lines I'm struggling with.

And since double-posting isn't possible, here's my previous post (the one that used to occupy this space).

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:33 am

It's really funny you mention that because that line was in the first copy I ever had, before the Manga Entertainment release. It was made by VKLL. I remember him being from Canada or something, but maybe he was originally from China.

There's what I call literal translating, and then there's what I call adaptive translating. Literal translating does exactly what it sounds like, which usually makes no sense when carried over to a different culture and language (although translating something like Italian to Spanish probably isn't nearly as problematic as Japanese to English). Adaptive translating takes the literal translation and hones the words so that the feeling, spirit, and writing quality aren't completely lost (and ideally, remain completely intact, although realistically this is probably impossible), thus adapting the words to fit that language. I think my ideal kind of translation would balance the two.

Focus too much on the literal translation, and you end up with something akin to the VKLL fansub (although I do like some of the lines he came up with).

Run away too far with the adaptive translating or do it without the right kind of care, and you run into some of the same problems Manga Entertainment ran into. That having been said, I think some of the lines they translated are also well done.

They each have their strengths and weaknesses, which comes as no surprise once you've read enough translations. There seem to be faults in different areas for every translation I've read so far, which is why I'm putting together my own amalgamation. Of course I can't claim perfection; I can only claim it is my favorite version.

[Reichu]

Does anyone know of a Japanese script more complete than this one?

I just cut out the middle man and use the DVD script whenever I need to look something up. Of course, this might not work for you, since as far as I know it's only in graphical format, and you might not be able to transcribe by sight. I can provide a link if you would like the files, though.

[Mjolnir Mark IV]

Thanks for the offer, but as you surmised, I wouldn't be able to transcribe by sight (but I do think I know the one you're talking about, I saw one in the topic Ornette linked me to earlier in this topic).

I'm in need of something digital that I can copy and paste.

[Reichu]

I don't think I'm of the mind to go searching for fan-made transcriptions, but if there are any particular lines you need, I can transcribe them from the DVD script for you.

[Mjolnir Mark IV]

Thank you, Reichu! That is a very generous offer. If there are more here than you anticipated, let me know before transcribing and I can point to the ones that seem the most crucial. This was basically a copy and paste reply on my part, because I had these documented before your offer.

SPOILER: Show

The line numbers correspond approximately to the Manga Entertainment DVD, but the timing corresponds to the ZX video (some of the end times might be off). The exact version I'm going to use for timing the final set of subtitles is to be decided (anyone's input on this is welcome), but for now this is what it is simply because it's what I started the project with.

English dialog is quoted from Bochan_bird's translation.

72
00:07:43,358 --> 00:07:45,021
"No. 4 firewall breached!"

99
00:09:20,907 --> 00:09:24,490
"Goura ground circuit recovery rate up to 0.2%"

119
00:11:11,393 --> 00:11:13,827
"Radar sites 8 to 17 have gone dead!"

120-121
00:11:13,935 --> 00:11:17,599
"JSSDF tech battalion advancing through Goura defense perimeter!"

122
00:11:17,705 --> 00:11:20,196
"Two battalions approaching from Gotemba!"

131
00:12:16,697 --> 00:12:18,426
"Daigatake tunnel cut off!"

132
00:12:18,532 --> 00:12:20,466
"Fire at West No. 5 freight entrance!"

133
00:12:20,568 --> 00:12:23,036
"Invading forces have entered Level 1!"

153-154
00:13:33,207 --> 00:13:39,638
"Closing all Central Dogma barricades up to Level 2. All non-combat personnel, evacuate via route 87."

161
00:14:25,993 --> 00:14:27,654
"No response from Group 2!"

162
00:14:27,828 --> 00:14:30,023
"Communication with No. 77 Computer Room negative."

163
00:14:30,498 --> 00:14:33,058
"No. 52 monorail destroyed!"

166
00:14:51,085 --> 00:14:52,712
"Cut the cables starting with the red ones..."

184
00:15:53,747 --> 00:15:54,913
"Mt. Futagoyama under control - Seal off Nagao Pass at once! Affirmative."

204
00:17:34,039 --> 00:17:37,284
"Commence heat dissipation procedures on the fifth Malbolge at once."

207
00:17:47,461 --> 00:17:50,453
"Yanagihara and Shinjo squads, enter lower levels immediately."

212
00:18:23.437 --> 00:18:25,566
"Yamagishi squad at No. 7 cage, report your status, over."

212-213
00:18:25,666 --> 00:18:29,894
"Purple unit secured. No problems with Bakelite infusion."

213
00:18:30.386 --> 00:18:33,867
"Red unit appears to have been launched... Currently searching for launch route used."

273-274
00:22:02,716 --> 00:22:06,778
"Surface heat receding. High-pressure steam discharges have also subsided."

275
00:22:06,887 --> 00:22:08,980
"Initial location of all units completed."

401
00:31:48,068 --> 00:31:50,127
"Nobody's perfect."

434
00:37:12,692 --> 00:37:13,852
"What's happening outside?"

535
00:50:34,751 --> 00:50:36,480
"Abort operations! All units pull back at once!"

536
00:50:36,652 --> 00:50:39,646
"We... We can't maintain molecular attraction any longer!"

540
00:50:56,506 --> 00:50:58,381
"Main JSSDF force annihilated! Atmospheric ozone breaking up!"

761
01:06:45,371 --> 01:06:46,838
"Entering F layer."

315
00:23:44,936 --> 00:23:46,808
"?"

This piece of dialog is from Asuka's mom during the underground lake sequence. I don't know what she says, but it's interrupted by overlapping dialog that sounds like this: まだ、死んでは駄目よ。まだ.

796-799
Shortly before the live action sequence, there's a montage with all kinds of rejections overlaying each other. Half of what's audible isn't in the script. As of right now, my plan is to only subtitle what's clearly audible (again, input from anyone is welcome on this matter).

On that basis, here are two lines I feel should probably be subtitled (I've already got the others transcribed):

796
01:11:24,617 --> 01:11:25,584
"?"

It's Asuka's voice, and sounds like it begins with something like それ (very approximate; in fact most definitely incorrect). She's almost immediately interrupted by overlapping dialog from Misato, which I think is this line: 誰がアンタなんかと.

799
01:11:32,124 --> 01:11:33,455
"?"

Sounds like Misato's voice, and is overlapped by Asuka saying もうあっち行ってて.

And that's all I have. But for the record, this is not necessarily a comprehensive list. In fact, there are some lines I intentionally omitted, including but not limited to the ones that play simultaneously over other more important lines.