The Spears

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final installment is scheduled to debut in Japan on January 23, 2021.

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Postby Reichu » Fri May 03, 2013 2:22 pm

View Original PostAngel of Will wrote:Oh; one last note to make is that I'm speculating that the 'Deicide' Gendo spoke of was a reference to the yet-to-be-mentioned FAR.

We don't have to speculate to such lengths. The dialogue makes it pretty clear that Kaworu's "casting down" and the DSS Choker's subsequent activation was something Gendo intended. I.e., Kaworu is the "god" whose death he arranged.

SPOILER: Show
01:15:53 {Kaworu} I never imagined that I, the First Angel,
01:15:56 {Kaworu} would be cast down to the Thirteenth.
01:16:00 {Shinji} What are you doing, Kaworu-kun?
01:16:04 {Kaworu} So the beginning and the end are the same.
01:16:08 {Kaworu} I'd expected as much from the King of the Lilin,
01:16:11 {Kaworu} Shinji-kun's father!
01:16:13 {Mari} DSS Choker, pattern blue?
01:16:15 {Mari} A thirteenth? Even though the Twelfth should be the last?!
01:16:19 {Mari} So this is what Gendo-kun is aiming for.
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Postby Monk Ed » Fri May 03, 2013 2:58 pm

When Kaworu noticed that the Spears were curiously the same when they should have been different, my immediate thought was XX vs XY chromosomes. If those were both Spears of Longinus, that would make Longinus the X and Cassius the Y. With all the sperm and egg symbolism going on it seemed a natural interpretation.
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Postby Stillborn » Fri May 03, 2013 3:02 pm

View Original PostMonk Ed wrote:When Kaworu noticed that the Spears were curiously the same when they should have been different, my immediate thought was XX vs XY chromosomes. If those were both Spears of Longinus, that would make Longinus the X and Cassius the Y. With all the sperm and egg symbolism going on it seemed a natural interpretation.


That makes perfect sense! :bigeyes:

They would create a woman so big, that her bitchyness would destroy whole mankind :hahaha:
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Postby Monk Ed » Fri May 03, 2013 6:16 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Exactly what the Cassius/Longinus combination does seems a little vaguely defined at the moment. A "filmanon" on /a/ said that the visuals suggest that what Kaworu meant by fixing the world is, basically, fixing the ecosystem -- nothing as metaphysically dramatic as reverting to a prior save state of existence. This would work well enough with the thematic motifs established so far, I think. Making the world nice and blue again is another step in rebuilding. It's a big step in the right direction, but it isn't an instant fix, and it doesn't bring people back from the dead or erase painful memories or anything.

What I took away from what Kaworu said was that Shinji would be able not only to reset the ecology but also turn all the red Eva-like things back into the humans they once were.

The idea that Kaworu could possibly have implied that the Spears would actually allow the literal turning back of time is one I'm only seeing now on the forum.
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Postby Angel of Will » Fri May 03, 2013 8:58 pm

I agree with Monk. Shinji was doing this partly to bring back Toji and all the people 3rd impact killed.

To Reichu, I was fully aware of Gendo's intent to kill Kaworu. However, had the "Death of God" been something SEELE had been striving for on equal par with Human Instrumentality, I doubt this could be referring to a simple Adam. I took it as a mission of philosophic proportions, as in becoming the new Gods of the Universe through Instrumentality and dethroning the old ones who were responsible for creating the mess that is life (in terms of SEELE's world-view).

I also have the impression that Kaworu was serving SEELE. Had they asked him to commit suicide, I think he would have done it. Note that Gendo shut SEELE down BEFORE Kaworu's death and the halting of 4th Impact. This means (I gather) that Gendo intended to give SEELE the impression that he was about to succeed in bringing it about, and that their departed souls would join them in Instrumentality. (All a trick to get them out of the way of course.) So from Gendo's point of view, SEELE had no intention of Kaworu dying like that.
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Postby Shinoyami65 » Sat May 04, 2013 1:58 am

View Original PostStillborn wrote:
They would create a woman so big, that her bitchyness would destroy whole mankind :hahaha:


Reminds me of the Rei/Lilith/Adam/Yui hybrid from EoE...

Bringing this back on topic, the Spears of Longinus in Q still seem to have metamorphic capabilities like in NGE... After they are first pulled, they morph from single-pointed spears to the familiar bident shape, then when Kaworu stabs Eva-13, the points fuse to make single-pointed Spears again, like during the Arael battle.
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Postby Charsi » Fri May 10, 2013 3:10 pm

From another thread:

Four beings of light at 2nd impact, and four spears rising into the air. Could each of the Adams "own" a spear? Were two of the Adams actually called Cassius and Longinus? Or is the name of the spear considered more of a type name as opposed to an owner name?

Does the spear Asuka wield during the Wunder activation sequence have a name?

Given that two of the spears rising up into the air appear in the shape of the Longinus lance, it may well be the latter (the prevailing assumption thus far I think). What I want to know is that Eva-06 descends from the moon with a Cassius lance that it throws at Eva-01. Sometime between then and Eva 3.33, Kaworu is led to believe (or perhaps witnesses?) Eva-06 and Lilith impaled itself with a Cassius and Longinus spear respectively in Terminal Dogma. Yet, when he returns to Eva-06 and Lilith, both are impaled by Longinus spears.

Can we make any inference back to a change in the nature of Eva-06 based on the fact that the nature of the lance it 'owns' has changed? Is it too much of a stretch to say "the lance changed, therefore the Eva changed"? Perhaps that is what Kaworu spends so much time pondering. Perhaps the lance change is a giveaway that Eva-06 is infected and that releasing it is a very bad idea. (I'm still really intrigued by the fact that Rei was apparently under orders to behead the Eva and release the Angel trapped within.)

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Postby Shinoyami65 » Fri May 10, 2013 3:39 pm

The lance Asuka uses is called a "heat lance". There isn't any elaboration on its background.

As for the Lances' names...I tend to think that they were names given to them by humans to classify them instead of the names of their owners. In NGE the Spear of Longinus is never called the "Spear of Adam" and we never see any indication of the Adams having individual names.

The confusion about the Lances seems to be so powerful that it staggers Kaworu, who is normally a venerable font of technobabble.
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Postby AlphaGamma » Fri May 10, 2013 3:41 pm

View Original PostCharsi wrote:Can we make any inference back to a change in the nature of Eva-06 based on the fact that the nature of the lance it 'owns' has changed? Is it too much of a stretch to say "the lance changed, therefore the Eva changed"? Perhaps that is what Kaworu spends so much time pondering. Perhaps the lance change is a giveaway that Eva-06 is infected and that releasing it is a very bad idea. (I'm still really intrigued by the fact that Rei was apparently under orders to behead the Eva and release the Angel trapped within.)

Well, u actually make an interesting point that's directly connected to the religious figure of Longinus.
Longinus and Cassius are essentially the same person (wikipedia...), Cassius was its "name" before he converted to christianity. After that his name was changed to Longinus.

So yeah, i guess that Cassius spear may have indeed transformed into Longinus spear with the time. Just like Cassius "changed" name to Longinus after changing his "nature".

Cassius himself converted to christianity after piercing Jesus with his spear (changing his name afterwards). It's not surprising then that, when a Cassius spear pierces an evangelion (a godly being of some kind/an Adam related being i guess), it eventually turns into a Longinus spear.
Maybe it's alrdy been pointed out somewhere else in the thread too.

As for spear themselves, i doubt they say anything about the name of the owner.

EDIT: We could even see things like this: 4 spears, 4 adams. All of them start out with a Cassius type. After each impact one Cassius spear turns into a Longinus spear. We've had 3 impacts (if we consider the one in 3.0 as a continuation of the one in 2.0) and probably 3 Longinus spears (1 missing), the spear that's left may still be a Cassius type.
So any idea what the role of the spears are? We've gotten an idea of their capabilities, but so far it isn't clear whether or not they were meant as fail-safes against the Adams like in NGE, or if they were more of an instrument for them. Kaworu was intent on using them as tools for personal use; but I wonder if that's just due to education he picked up from being a lackey for SEELE, or demigod-privileged knowledge.

My guess is that Cassius spears serve as a failsafe, to keep Adams under control(?). Prolonged contact with Adams (or similar beings) eventually turns them into Longinus spears, at which point they may lose their sealing capabilities once they're removed from the Adams. Let's say that Cassius spears are the only ones that can stop an impact and that only one is left. If they use the one that's left (provided someone has found it), it's going to turn into a Longinus type eventually. That would make one more impact after the fourth completely unstoppable (unless Shinji pulls off something...)

With all this in mind it's not so weird that the use of 1 Longinus and 1 Cassius may redo the world. The Cassius represents the previous state of the Longinus spear, contact between them may allow to go back to a previous state of existence (it makes sense only on a symbolical level, but still...)

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Postby ElMariachi » Fri May 10, 2013 8:29 pm

Except that there seems to have been three Longinus type and only one Cassius type during Second Impact :
SPOILER: Show
Image

You can clearly see the two Longinus on the background, the one on the upper foreground seems to be another Longinus, due to its "screwy" handle, and the last one on the bottom is the only one with a smooth handle, like the Cassius type, so it must be the one Kaworu used at the end of 2.0.
Last edited by ElMariachi on Tue May 21, 2013 3:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby AlphaGamma » Fri May 10, 2013 8:52 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Except that there seems to have been three Longinus type and only one Cassius type during Second Impact :
SPOILER: Show
Image

You can clearly see the two Longinus on the background, the one on the upper foreground seems to be another Longinus, due to its "screwy" handle, and the last one on the bottom is the only one with a smooth handle, like the Cassius type, so it must be the one Kaworu used at the end of 2.0.

If that's true then this is probably it. No more chances for Shinji to redo if the only Cassius spear actually turned into a Longinus. At least he won't have any choice but to look forward...

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Postby Shinoyami65 » Sat May 11, 2013 1:12 am

Unless the Longinus Spear could become a Cassius Spear...It could be possible, though we have no evidence for or against it happening.
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Postby Steel Paladin » Mon May 20, 2013 9:22 pm

View Original PostMonk Ed wrote:When Kaworu noticed that the Spears were curiously the same when they should have been different, my immediate thought was XX vs XY chromosomes. If those were both Spears of Longinus, that would make Longinus the X and Cassius the Y. With all the sperm and egg symbolism going on it seemed a natural interpretation.


Perhaps the spears appeared in the same form because both souls in EVA-13 were male. To have them appear in the divergent Longinus and Cassius forms would have required a male and a female. As a result, to remake the world requires the same combination of souls as creating new life.

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Postby Shinoyami65 » Mon May 20, 2013 9:56 pm

View Original PostSteel Paladin wrote:Perhaps the spears appeared in the same form because both souls in EVA-13 were male. To have them appear in the divergent Longinus and Cassius forms would have required a male and a female. As a result, to remake the world requires the same combination of souls as creating new life.


Possibly...that's a very interesting theory. Kaworu seemed to think it would be OK, though-possibly Gendo misled him?
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Postby Reichu » Mon May 20, 2013 10:09 pm

Kaworu, ostensibly a male, could wield the Spear of Cassius without it going Longinus on him. Why would the Spear change shape only upon somehow detecting two male souls in the same Eva? It just gets overwhelmed by the manliness? :p (And somehow it does this before we get our first glimpses of the Spears, too, meaning it would need some kind of long-range spiritual-testosterone sensitivity.)
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Postby Charsi » Mon May 20, 2013 11:21 pm

View Original PostSteel Paladin wrote:Perhaps the spears appeared in the same form because both souls in EVA-13 were male. To have them appear in the divergent Longinus and Cassius forms would have required a male and a female. As a result, to remake the world requires the same combination of souls as creating new life.


Doesn't really explain why the spear would be Cassius form when Kaworu alone was wielding it.

Wild idea:

What if Cassius is the spear that "descends" while Longinus is the spear that "ascends"? Or arrests vs evolves. Whatever two opposing pronouns you want to use.

With both spears you can control fate. With only one kind of spear you can only move things in one direction. In seeing two spears of the same kind, Kaworu realized (after some thought) that it was a trap, and that pulling the spears would not result in any kind of control; things could go in only one direction.

Why did the spears change shape? I don't have an answer for that one right now. I'm still thinking it through.

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Postby Rei IV » Mon May 20, 2013 11:26 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Kaworu, ostensibly a male, could wield the Spear of Cassius without it going Longinus on him. Why would the Spear change shape only upon somehow detecting two male souls in the same Eva? It just gets overwhelmed by the manliness? :p (And somehow it does this before we get our first glimpses of the Spears, too, meaning it would need some kind of long-range spiritual-testosterone sensitivity.)

Sauce? (A wasted opportunity for a fem-Kaworu joke, I'm disappoint.)

:wink:

It's a very interesting if not one of the more bizarre, yet, unique theories somebody has come up with. Does meant if Asuka, Mari, or Rei where with Shinji, he could've succeeded in changing the world.

:nyao:

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Postby Shinoyami65 » Tue May 21, 2013 2:24 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Kaworu, ostensibly a male, could wield the Spear of Cassius without it going Longinus on him. Why would the Spear change shape only upon somehow detecting two male souls in the same Eva? It just gets overwhelmed by the manliness? :p (And somehow it does this before we get our first glimpses of the Spears, too, meaning it would need some kind of long-range spiritual-testosterone sensitivity.)


Maybe Shinji was channelling the manliness of every AU and fanfic Shinji in existence, and it overwhelmed the Spear :lol: .

My main theory is that the Spear may have changed form during the timeskip because of age or contact with Lilith, the Twelfth Angel or the Mark.06.
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Postby Charsi » Tue May 21, 2013 6:22 am

Honestly wasn't the whole Cassius concept introduced 3.33? Did we even know it was the spear of Cassius in 2.22 or was it just a spear at that point in time?

I could fanwank an explanation but it seems pointless; any contrast between spears and Adams falls over when Eva-13 is supposed to be one of the "surviving Adams" (according to Mari) yet the spears remain in Longinus shape when wielded by the Eva.
Last edited by Charsi on Tue May 21, 2013 6:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Steel Paladin » Tue May 21, 2013 6:26 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Kaworu, ostensibly a male, could wield the Spear of Cassius without it going Longinus on him. Why would the Spear change shape only upon somehow detecting two male souls in the same Eva? It just gets overwhelmed by the manliness? :p (And somehow it does this before we get our first glimpses of the Spears, too, meaning it would need some kind of long-range spiritual-testosterone sensitivity.)


Ahh, fair enough. The chromosomal talk sparked an interesting idea, is all. :)


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