The Spears

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final installment is scheduled to debut in Japan on January 23, 2021.

Moderators: Rebuild/OT Moderators, Board Staff

ElMariachi
Le Posteur Verbeux
Le Posteur Verbeux
User avatar
Age: 33
Posts: 6899
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
Location: France
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby ElMariachi » Tue May 28, 2013 9:24 am

To launch an Impact you need an awakened EVA, you don't need any spear.

By using the spears you can stop an awakened EVA, and with it the Impact(Kaworu with the lance of Cassius in 2.22).
By wielding the spears, it seems that you can control the Impact and make it do what you want! That's why Kaworu said that without the two spears, NERV won't be able to launch Instrumentality.
As for why he needed a Cassius and a Longinus, the more logical explanation would be that they offer different "options" about what you can do with the Impact :

- Impact without spears : mass destruction
- Impact with Cassius and Longinus : "Planetary Mass Healing" function available
- Impact with two Longinus : "Planetary Mass Healing" function unavailable, fucks even more the planet(or at least for the Lilin, maybe an Angel will find the place very appealing)
- Impact with 4 spears : every functions are available.
Avatar: THE HIGHEST OF ALL HIGHS WE AAAAAAAAAARE!!!
Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

Charsi
Gaghiel
Gaghiel
Age: 43
Posts: 365
Joined: Nov 16, 2012
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Charsi » Tue May 28, 2013 10:49 am

A spear in Cassius shape -> provokes/controls homeostasis (stay the same)
A spear in Longinus shape -> provokes/controls transistasis (change)

Humanity (ostensibly called Lilim) are always growing and changing are they not? Perhaps the spear through Lilith is what provokes change and growth in humanity. A very slow form of it (evolution lol?).

So why would you need both spears in an impact? Because an impact is the evolution of a divine being, sacrificing all life that came before it. It is change writ large. If you don't want a catastrophe on your hands then you need something to guide that change, to keep the world mostly intact while you evolve instead of destroying it in the process. Maybe that's the purpose of the Cassius spear... to dampen the worldwide effects of the impact and contain it.

With no provoking or dampening factors you get "Near 3rd Impact", a completely uncontrolled evolution that wreaks weird and wonderful havoc. Perhaps the teeth and the moon are what you get when you don't use either spear to guide things along. If you use a Longinus (or two Longinus) you have control, but only one kind of control.

It's kind of the same as ElMariachi's post, just above this one.

(This doesn't really explain why the scenery at the end of 2.22 doesn't gel with what we're shown in 3.33.)

riffraff11235
Seed
Seed
User avatar
Age: 27
Posts: 3966
Joined: Jul 19, 2012
Location: Long Island, New York, USA
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby riffraff11235 » Tue May 28, 2013 3:08 pm

A quick Wikipedia search for both "Longinus" and "Cassius" yielded interesting results.

If the names of the spears are in reference to an historical figure, two options pop out: Saint Longinus, the soldier who pierced the side of Christ; and Gaius Cassius Longinus, a roman juror and one of the assassins of Julius Caesar. Of note: Longinus took up the name Cassius when he converted to Christianity after the death of Jesus.

I think most of us accept the first option as most likely. It offers a nice parallel with the way in which the Cassius-type Spear supposedly changed into a Longinus-type. Maybe 4.0 will see the characters looking for a way to change the type of one of those Spears to Cassius once again?
だから みんな 死んでしまえば いいのに... では, あなたは何故, ココにいるの? ...ココにいても, いいの?
"Cogito ergo sum." - Rene Descartes
"Men do not quit playing because they grow old; they grow old because they quit playing." - Oliver Wendell Holmes
Avatar: Asuka is superior. That is all.
PSN - riffraff-11235 Feel free to add me. PM me on EGF if you do.
Steam - rifffraff11235

League of Legends - riffraff11235
Osu! - riffraff11235

Giji Shinka
Test Subject
Test Subject
User avatar
Age: 26
Posts: 2717
Joined: Jan 26, 2013
Location: Finland
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Giji Shinka » Tue May 28, 2013 3:17 pm

View Original Postriffraff11235 wrote:Of note: Longinus took up the name Cassius when he converted to Christianity after the death of Jesus.

The spear was affected by Lilith's death (Or it could be that the effect to spear happened at some point after her death) and changed to a different type? Interesting. :asuka_thumbsup:
Last edited by Giji Shinka on Tue May 28, 2013 3:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Avatar: "Anime-lehti" logo

TheFriskyIan
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Posts: 1911
Joined: Mar 24, 2011
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby TheFriskyIan » Tue May 28, 2013 3:19 pm

View Original Postriffraff11235 wrote:I think most of us accept the first option as most likely. It offers a nice parallel with the way in which the Cassius-type Spear supposedly changed into a Longinus-type. Maybe 4.0 will see the characters looking for a way to change the type of one of those Spears to Cassius once again?

That raises another question, why didn't anybody go after the spears when Eva 13 fell back down to Earth? Wunder is seen flying away and Nerv doesn't really seem to care about the spears. I'm sure they weren't destroyed when Eva 13 crash landed in God Knows where. They could still be of use to either side.
Please just call me Ian, "TheFrisky" is more of a title.

"Knowledge seeks no Man."

Charsi
Gaghiel
Gaghiel
Age: 43
Posts: 365
Joined: Nov 16, 2012
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Charsi » Tue May 28, 2013 3:33 pm

Yeah i've heard of that before though I found no actual information in the Saint Longinus article on wikipedia about his conversion. It just says he's sometimes called Cassius.

On the topic of conversion though I don't think anyone's made the link between spears and belief, and that's an interesting one. It ties in somewhat with Kaworu being cast down from first to 13th. Perhaps the spear hints at the presence of the 13th Angel rather than the presence of the 12th as I previously suspected.

If Cassius represents one that holds true to the faith, perhaps Longinus represents a heretic or one who has been cast down. So the presence of two Longinus spears could hint at either Kaworu's fall from grace, or Mark.06's corruption, or the presence of the 12th Angel, or all of the above at the same time. The other lance belonging to / marking / crucifying (!!) Lilith.

Or: fanwankery. Who the hell knows.

Eliaskar
Lilith
User avatar
Age: 25
Posts: 125
Joined: Apr 08, 2012
Location: England
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Eliaskar » Tue May 28, 2013 7:04 pm

An interesting idea I just thought of about the spears is this.

Cassius = Stops/neutralises impacts and neutralises creatures.
Longinus = Can enhance impact potential, power and capability and suspend things in animation.

Having both (One to stop impacts and one to enhance them) could perhaps neutralise the effects of impacts that have already occured as they could sort of... cancel eachother out in a way.

DarthGendo
Adam
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 77
Joined: Jun 04, 2010
Location: Soviet Russia
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby DarthGendo » Thu May 30, 2013 4:32 am

The difference between LoL and LoC
Lance of Cassius destroyes everything Angel-related. That's why N3I was stopped. Eva-01 lost it's Zeruel part.
Lance of Longinus doesn't harm Angels. It puts them in a state of indefinite slumber though. Proof: Lilith.
The libtardation is strong in these forums.

ElMariachi
Le Posteur Verbeux
Le Posteur Verbeux
User avatar
Age: 33
Posts: 6899
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
Location: France
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby ElMariachi » Thu May 30, 2013 4:51 am

View Original PostDarthGendo wrote:The difference between LoL and LoC
Lance of Cassius destroyes everything Angel-related. That's why N3I was stopped. Eva-01 lost it's Zeruel part.
Lance of Longinus doesn't harm Angels. It puts them in a state of indefinite slumber though. Proof: Lilith.

As I said in the Kaworu's intentions thread : Kaworu said that the LoC morphed into a LoL, meaning that the LoC was indeed used against the 12th Angel, ruling out the possibility that it kills Angels while the LoL put them on slumber.

And if EVA-01 lost Zeruel part, it wouldn't been possible for it to awaken anymore, yet somehow it was used after 2.0 to transform the landscape into core and create the FoIs, and tried the core thing again 14 years later with EVA-02's robot-arm, that's the proof that it still has its Zeruel part.
Avatar: THE HIGHEST OF ALL HIGHS WE AAAAAAAAAARE!!!
Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

K40s
Gaghiel
Gaghiel
User avatar
Age: 37
Posts: 354
Joined: Jan 12, 2013
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby K40s » Thu May 30, 2013 4:56 am

View Original PostDarthGendo wrote:Lance of Cassius destroyes everything Angel-related. That's why N3I was stopped. Eva-01 lost it's Zeruel part.
Wouldn't that mean that it also destroyed the Fruit of Life, yet Eva-01 is used to power the Wunder...

DarthGendo
Adam
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 77
Joined: Jun 04, 2010
Location: Soviet Russia
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby DarthGendo » Thu May 30, 2013 5:12 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Yet somehow it was used after 2.0 to transform the landscape into core and create the FoIs

And where did you get that Idea?
There are no signs of Eva-01 doing anything.
What we see in terminal Dogma is 12th angel merged with Mark-06 and Lilith.
K40s wrote:Wouldn't that mean that it also destroyed the Fruit of Life, yet Eva-01 is used to power the Wunder...

We don't know that. Maybe it did maybe it didn't. Asuka seem to use something resembling LoC to ignite Wunder's engine that suspiciously looks like a core.
The libtardation is strong in these forums.

ElMariachi
Le Posteur Verbeux
Le Posteur Verbeux
User avatar
Age: 33
Posts: 6899
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
Location: France
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby ElMariachi » Thu May 30, 2013 5:33 am

View Original PostDarthGendo wrote:And where did you get that Idea?
There are no signs of Eva-01 doing anything.
What we see in terminal Dogma is 12th angel merged with Mark-06 and Lilith.

The FoIs are exact copies of EVA-01, that mean that somehow it got implicated in these apocalyptic events.

View Original PostDarthGendo wrote:We don't know that. Maybe it did maybe it didn't. Asuka seem to use something resembling LoC to ignite Wunder's engine that suspiciously looks like a core.

You're mixing everything : Asuka's lance is called a "Heat Lance", it's just a big lance lance is heated to white hot levels and used to melt trough armoring. The thing looking like a core is a giant "womb" like structure that keep EVA-01 contained and prevent it from turning everything around it to core. An what ignite the Wunder isn't the heat Lance, but another piece, called... an Igniter that looks like a big fork that Asuka plunge into the "womb" through the hole she made with the Heat Lance.
You can see a schematic of EVA-01 inside the "womb" later during Ristuko info-dump.
Avatar: THE HIGHEST OF ALL HIGHS WE AAAAAAAAAARE!!!
Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

Shinoyami65
Seed
Seed
User avatar
Age: 23
Posts: 3926
Joined: Jul 26, 2012
Location: Vinculum Gate
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Shinoyami65 » Thu May 30, 2013 5:38 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:

You're mixing everything : Asuka's lance is called a "Heat Lance", it's just a big lance lance is heated to white hot levels and used to melt trough armoring. The thing looking like a core is a giant "womb" like structure that keep EVA-01 contained and prevent it from turning everything around it to core. An what ignite the Wunder isn't the heat Lance, but another piece, called... an Igniter that looks like a big fork that Asuka plunge into the "womb" through the hole she made with the Heat Lance.
You can see a schematic of EVA-01 inside the "womb" later during Ristuko info-dump.


I posted pics of the Heat Lance and the Igniter earlier in the thread.

It wouldn't make sense for the LoL to not harm Angels as Lilith isn't a conventional Angel per se: she's an SoL and a co-equivalent being to Adam(s), rather than an Angel produced by Adam like Zeruel. The Cassius Spear was also apparently stabbed through the Twelfth Angel-possessed Mark.06, yet the Twelfth is still alive and healthy in 3.0. Thus the Cassius Spear may not have an effect on Angels either.
E̱͡v͈̙e͔̰̳͙r̞͍y͏̱̲̭͎̪ṱ͙̣̗̱͠h̰̰i͙n̶̮̟̳͍͍̫͓g̩ ̠͈en̶̖̹̪d̸̙̦͙̜͕͍̞s̸̰.̳̙̺̟̻̀

I always thought I might be bad
Now I know that it's true
Because I think you're so good
And I'm nothing like you

DarthGendo
Adam
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 77
Joined: Jun 04, 2010
Location: Soviet Russia
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby DarthGendo » Thu May 30, 2013 5:44 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:The FoIs are exact copies of EVA-01, that mean that somehow it got implicated in these apocalyptic events.

Is there a specific image proving those resemble Eva-01? Because Mark-06 and Eva-01 are very much alike.
The libtardation is strong in these forums.

Shinoyami65
Seed
Seed
User avatar
Age: 23
Posts: 3926
Joined: Jul 26, 2012
Location: Vinculum Gate
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Shinoyami65 » Thu May 30, 2013 5:47 am

View Original PostDarthGendo wrote:Is there a specific image proving those resemble Eva-01? Because Mark-06 and Eva-01 are very much alike.


Read this thread:

http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/14401/-Failures-of-Infinity-Dont-lose-your-head/

It seems that, after close examination, the FoIs have a greater resemblance to Eva-01 than Eva Mark.06 (pectoral chest plates, etc.) images etc. can be found in the thread linked above.
E̱͡v͈̙e͔̰̳͙r̞͍y͏̱̲̭͎̪ṱ͙̣̗̱͠h̰̰i͙n̶̮̟̳͍͍̫͓g̩ ̠͈en̶̖̹̪d̸̙̦͙̜͕͍̞s̸̰.̳̙̺̟̻̀

I always thought I might be bad
Now I know that it's true
Because I think you're so good
And I'm nothing like you

Bagheera
Asuka's Bulldog
Asuka's Bulldog
User avatar
Posts: 18641
Joined: Oct 15, 2010

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Bagheera » Thu May 30, 2013 7:26 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:It's amazing how much this bit of dialogue is ignored.

{Kaworu} Both Spears have morphed into the same shape.

Unless this is total throwaway -- doubtful -- it means that the Spear of Cassius turned into a Spear of Longinus. No convoluted switcheroos using secret passages or anything like that -- just an unexplained metamorphosis.


I've been saying that for months now.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

Shinoyami65
Seed
Seed
User avatar
Age: 23
Posts: 3926
Joined: Jul 26, 2012
Location: Vinculum Gate
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Shinoyami65 » Thu May 30, 2013 7:27 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I've been saying that for months now.


The mystery lies in what caused the metamorphosis, and whether it is reversible. It is also unclear whether it was a quick transformation like that seen in the ooken wielded by the MP Evas or a gradual one due to time or aging.
E̱͡v͈̙e͔̰̳͙r̞͍y͏̱̲̭͎̪ṱ͙̣̗̱͠h̰̰i͙n̶̮̟̳͍͍̫͓g̩ ̠͈en̶̖̹̪d̸̙̦͙̜͕͍̞s̸̰.̳̙̺̟̻̀

I always thought I might be bad
Now I know that it's true
Because I think you're so good
And I'm nothing like you

Bagheera
Asuka's Bulldog
Asuka's Bulldog
User avatar
Posts: 18641
Joined: Oct 15, 2010

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Bagheera » Thu May 30, 2013 7:33 am

View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:The mystery lies in what caused the metamorphosis, and whether it is reversible. It is also unclear whether it was a quick transformation like that seen in the ooken wielded by the MP Evas or a gradual one due to time or aging.


The real question is how Gendo knew it would happen when no one else did.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

Charsi
Gaghiel
Gaghiel
Age: 43
Posts: 365
Joined: Nov 16, 2012
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Charsi » Thu May 30, 2013 8:05 am

Because Gendo knew the 12th Angel was inside Mark.06. He had to have known to have given Rei standing orders to behead Mark.06 as soon as it was freed from Lilith.

One would think Seele knew as well, since an Eva consuming an Angel's core seems to be how you trigger an ascension/impact.

Pulling the spears freed Mark.06; ReiQ freed the 12th Angel by beheading the lifeless unit. Yes, I said lifeless... Mark.06 hangs in the air like a lifeless ragdoll... the only reason it's twitching is because the 12th Angel is moving back and forth inside it's skin, looking for a way out.

This is why I keep saying it's not clear what the spears actually start, only what they stop. One could theorize that that a Longinus spear "deactivates" an Angel and a Cassius spear "deactivates" an Eva. The reason the spear morphed from Cassius to Longinus is because the Eva (Mark.06) essentially was gutted and replaced by the 12th Angel. The spear shape change gives away the presence of the Angel which Kaworu did not see coming.

Note: does Lilith count as the 2nd Angel in Rebuild?

Whatever it was Kaworu thought he could do with the spears, chomping down on the 12th Angel core and starting an impact was not it.
Last edited by Charsi on Thu May 30, 2013 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

Bagheera
Asuka's Bulldog
Asuka's Bulldog
User avatar
Posts: 18641
Joined: Oct 15, 2010

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Bagheera » Thu May 30, 2013 8:09 am

View Original PostCharsi wrote:Because Gendo knew the 12th Angel was inside Mark.06. He had to have known to have given Rei standing orders to behead Mark.06 as soon as it was freed from Lilith.


I wrote:The real question is how Gendo knew it would happen when no one else did.


If it's as straightforward as you suggest Seele and Kaworu should have known about it as well. Wille too, far as that goes.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.


Return to “Rebuild of Evangelion Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests