The Spears

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final installment is scheduled to debut in Japan on January 23, 2021.

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Postby Shinoyami65 » Mon May 27, 2013 10:43 am

View Original PostMbryo wrote:The heat spear seems to cleverly resemble to Cassius Spear, but it definately does not have the signature jewel, and it looks more mechanical/artificial. Probably just a copy, though I don't know how Wille managed to accomplish that, since they clearly are behind Neo-Nerv in terms of Eva-technology (if they can't re-grow a limb for an eva, where the hell did they get the technology to copy the spears?)
One of the Longinus Spear in the Dogma probably was the Cassius Spear. Perhaps a Cassius Spear changes form into a Longinus Spear after a prolonged contact with an Angellic being (that would correspond well with its religious reference) and it just changed shape, which is also how Kaworu guessed there was a living Angel inside Mark.06.


I doubt it's an actual Spear replica, since its only power seems to be to melt through metal hatches. Eva-05's Longinus Replica could penetrate the Third Angel's AT Field; if Wille had something that powerful, why didn't they give one of Eva-02 instead of that halberd? The need for Anti-ATF Ammo also implies that Wille doesn't have a Spear to penetrate ATFs at long-range.
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Postby Dovah » Mon May 27, 2013 10:44 am

So I've been thinking, and could it be possible that maybe the Cassius Spear serves to stop Impacts, as seen in the end of 2.22, and the Longinus Spear doesn't?

Maybe that's the reason Eva-13 didn't deactivate. Maybe the Longinus Spear has another purpose?

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Postby Shinoyami65 » Mon May 27, 2013 10:45 am

View Original PostDovah wrote:So I've been thinking, and could it be possible that maybe the Cassius Spear serves to stop Impacts, as seen in the end of 2.22, and the Longinus Spear doesn't?

Maybe that's the reason Eva-13 didn't deactivate. Maybe the Longinus Spear has another purpose?


Kaworu seemed to think the two Longinus Spears and his death would stop the Impact- although since it didn't work he may have been wrong.
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Postby TheFriskyIan » Mon May 27, 2013 12:09 pm

View Original PostCharsi wrote:If you look at 2.22 in the bit where Mark.06 descends, look at the top of the spear (pointing skywards). It's twisted like Longinus.

Not quite, that's actually how the spear is designed.
SPOILER: Show
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In the preview of 3.33 after the credits, it already IS in Longinus shape. But I guess that's not canon now.

Also not quite. We can see that the rod part is very thin. We don't know if it's a Longinus or Cassius type cause we don't see the blade part of the spear.
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Postby Charsi » Mon May 27, 2013 12:15 pm

Well, I certainly never knew that about the haft of the spear... guess you learn something new every day.

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Postby ElMariachi » Mon May 27, 2013 12:24 pm

View Original Postone-eyed wrote:More I think, more I consider this entire story an absurd! If Wille known the passage to Lilith and had supplies prepared, why not just exploded everything in those years? Or filled with traps and explosives? Wille cannot have committed such negligence! Everything from detecting the activation of Unit 13 (which should be impossible since Mark 09 was undetectable, then Eva 13 also should be), until the appearance of Asuka and Mari and the substitution/transformation of Spears seemed staged. For me, Gendo has a double agent infiltrated Wille that monitors and, when is appropriate to Gendo, give information to them. I'm heavy speculating, but I think those who exchanged the spears were Wille and they used the two Spears of Longinius to ensure that Eva 06 and Lilith stay neutralized with Intel of Gendo. This would explain the similarity of Heat Spear with Spear of Cassius.
Kaworu might not know the other entrance and so was for the long way. His delay was beneficial for Wille and more important for Gendo. As always. Gendo = Gary Stu in eternal God Mode.

I didn't say that WILLE installed this gear years ago on the off chance that someday they will have to ambush someone, simply that they arrived a little before EVA-13 and Mark.09 :
- EVA-13 activate, WILLE detect it and the Wunder was probably around the place since some time to be ready to intervene.
- EVA-13 and Mark.09 descend slowly the kilometers of the Main Shaft going from the altar to the Lid near the center of the Black Moon, and seeing the size of the thing when it emerged, the visible part of the Main Shaft must make at most a third of the total distance. It probably took hours to the neo-NERV team to descend. At roughly the same time, the Wunder airdrop EVA 02 and 08 with climbing gear and various weapons(the giant fighter jet probably carrying the heavy material) directly inside the Geofront through the giant cross-shaped crack, the Wunder had probably scanned the place beforehand to find an access.
- Mari and Asuka manage to reach the access before neo-NERV team(maybe 20-30 minutes before) and install their gear to be ready to ambush them(sniper nest, containers...)
- neo-NERV team arrive through the now broken lid, Asuka begin the ambush and the rest is history.

Nothing too far fetched.

View Original PostTMBounty_Hunter wrote:They had the DSS Choker inside Eva-13 that monitor the pilot's synchronization.

What an idiot I'm! :facepalm:
I completely forgot that the DSS Choker had a function to monitor the wearer's synchronization with an EVA!
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Postby Charsi » Mon May 27, 2013 3:19 pm

It doesn't pass the smell test to imply WILLE arrived before Eva-13. There's a cover over Lilith's chamber that they NEED Eva-13 to open.

Therefore Asuka and Mari must have arrived after, presumably descending down the main shaft (which means they dropped in from the pyramid). Asuka engaged while Mari found a suitable gap and made sniper nest in the uneven ceiling. Only way it works.

As for how long it takes them to descend, if they use S type equipment (seen in 2.22) they could conceivably dive straight down the main shaft at full tilt and then slow their descent as they reach Central Dogma. We don't see any S type equipment anywhere, but oh well.

I can only imagine they'd be dropped from the Wunder in S type equipment with a couple of recharge units, a few spare arms, and Mari's sniper gear. I really can't see Asuka and Mari being slowly lowered in by cable as the Wunder chills over the GeoFront. The fact that Eva-13 and Mark.09 descend by cable is what gives Wunder the time needed to travel and drop the Eva's, and a straight dive lets them catch up. It also explains what Wunder is even doing in the area.

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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Mon May 27, 2013 4:12 pm

View Original PostCharsi wrote:Therefore Asuka and Mari must have arrived after, presumably descending down the main shaft (which means they dropped in from the pyramid). Asuka engaged while Mari found a suitable gap and made sniper nest in the uneven ceiling. Only way it works.

I had thought that they blew open a hole in the roof, but the sequence makes this ambiguous. However, we do later see Eva-02' and Eva-08 emerge from a crevice, suggesting that this is how they entered as well.

Perhaps Eva-13's opening of the barrier has given Wille leave to enter the chamber as well -- a breach of some outside agreement or truce. Perhaps Willie have had access all the while, but are effectively unable to do anything as they cannot remove the spears without a double entry system.
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Postby TheFriskyIan » Mon May 27, 2013 5:57 pm

View Original PostObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:Perhaps Eva-13's opening of the barrier has given Wille leave to enter the chamber as well -- a breach of some outside agreement or truce. Perhaps Willie have had access all the while, but are effectively unable to do anything as they cannot remove the spears without a double entry system.

If there was some sort of truce going on between the two organizations, I'm sure it would have been breached earlier when Rei Q broke Shinji out of Sky Jail.
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Postby Jinroh » Mon May 27, 2013 6:01 pm

View Original PostCharsi wrote:It doesn't pass the smell test to imply WILLE arrived before Eva-13. There's a cover over Lilith's chamber that they NEED Eva-13 to open.

I agree. It was sealed, no way the person or organization who sealed it would have left breaches. Asuka and Mari arrived afterwards.

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Postby riffraff11235 » Mon May 27, 2013 6:05 pm

View Original PostTheFriskyIan wrote:If there was some sort of truce going on between the two organizations, I'm sure it would have been breached earlier when Rei Q broke Shinji out of Sky Jail.

Yeah, I have a feeling that ripping holes in "friendly" ships and abducting valuable assets would be frowned upon in a truce. :lol:

I think it's more likely that Wille knew about the crevice beforehand and it was simply sealed by Lilit's Barrier just like the main shaft. They were probably started a stake-out of Nerv HQ after Shinji was taken and sent Asuka and Mari in once they got the signal that Evangelion 13 activated.
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Postby Shinoyami65 » Tue May 28, 2013 12:26 am

Getting back to the topic, could it be possible for a Longinus Spear to turn into a Cassius Spear under the right circumstances? That might allow Shinji to reverse 3I, if he can find another Spear. There are four Spears seen at 2I, and we know two are Longinus. So far we've seen one Longinus Spear and one Cassius Spear that later becomes a Longinus Spear. That leaves one Longinus and one Cassius Spear unaccounted for.
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Postby ElMariachi » Tue May 28, 2013 2:49 am

View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:Getting back to the topic, could it be possible for a Longinus Spear to turn into a Cassius Spear under the right circumstances? That might allow Shinji to reverse 3I, if he can find another Spear. There are four Spears seen at 2I, and we know two are Longinus. So far we've seen one Longinus Spear and one Cassius Spear that later becomes a Longinus Spear. That leaves one Longinus and one Cassius Spear unaccounted for.

We are not even sure that there is another Cassius in the two spears unaccounted for.
If you look back at the four spears during 2I flash-back, the two spears on the background are Longinus types, and one of the foreground had a "screwy" handle like the other Longinus(implying that it's another one) and the last one had a smooth handle, like the Cassius.
So it's very probable that there was three Longinus and only one Cassius.
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Postby Shinoyami65 » Tue May 28, 2013 5:44 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:We are not even sure that there is another Cassius in the two spears unaccounted for.
If you look back at the four spears during 2I flash-back, the two spears on the background are Longinus types, and one of the foreground had a "screwy" handle like the other Longinus(implying that it's another one) and the last one had a smooth handle, like the Cassius.
So it's very probable that there was three Longinus and only one Cassius.


Hmm, so the other two Spears could be Longinus? Well, if one of them morphed into a Cassius I guess it would still be OK...although the whole concept of the Spears changing form from Longinus to Cassius is pretty shaky because we don't know what causes it.
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Postby TheFriskyIan » Tue May 28, 2013 7:14 am

Why do the spears need to be so specific for fixing the world? I mean Eva 13 didn't really do anything until the 12th Angel turned into a core. If the 12th Angel wasn't even there and it was still two Longinus Spears, would that really be bad? Like I said, after the spears were pulled Eva 13 just kinda floated there staring off into space.
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Postby pwhodges » Tue May 28, 2013 7:38 am

View Original PostTheFriskyIan wrote:would that really be bad?

You're thinking like Shinji here, I'd say! But of course, it was
˂- that bad (not directly, but that was the outcome).
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Postby Shinoyami65 » Tue May 28, 2013 8:36 am

View Original PostTheFriskyIan wrote:Why do the spears need to be so specific for fixing the world? I mean Eva 13 didn't really do anything until the 12th Angel turned into a core. If the 12th Angel wasn't even there and it was still two Longinus Spears, would that really be bad? Like I said, after the spears were pulled Eva 13 just kinda floated there staring off into space.


Well, Kaworu and Asuka clearly thought that something bad would happen. Although they might have just been referring to the Twelfth Angel being unleashed.
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Postby ElMariachi » Tue May 28, 2013 8:47 am

View Original PostTheFriskyIan wrote:Why do the spears need to be so specific for fixing the world? I mean Eva 13 didn't really do anything until the 12th Angel turned into a core. If the 12th Angel wasn't even there and it was still two Longinus Spears, would that really be bad? Like I said, after the spears were pulled Eva 13 just kinda floated there staring off into space.

If the spears were pulled and the 12th wasn't there, then EVA-13 would have wielded two shiny spears... and nothing else.(maybe use them to vent his frustration on Asuka? :tongue: )
Per se the spears are nothing more than alien control rods doubled of AT-piercing weapons. It's EVA-13 awakening(thanks to the 12th Angel, and maybe the absorption of Lilith's body) which, combined with the two spears, started the shitstorm of 4I.
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Postby Shinoyami65 » Tue May 28, 2013 8:52 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:If the spears were pulled and the 12th wasn't there, then EVA-13 would have wielded two shiny spears... and nothing else.(maybe use them to vent his frustration on Asuka? :tongue: )
Per se the spears are nothing more than alien control rods doubled of AT-piercing weapons. It's EVA-13 awakening(thanks to the 12th Angel, and maybe the absorption of Lilith's body) which, combined with the two spears, started the shitstorm of 4I.


Hmm, I wonder what would have happened if the Cassius Spear had been there. Would Eva-13 still have been left with two shiny toothpicks? Or was Kaworu planning on making Eva-13 eat the 12th Angel and awaken it all along? (probably he was). Not sure what role the Spears actually play, though, as Eva-01 started up 3I fine without them. Possibly they're required to summon that big white orb surrounded by crosses in the Guf? We see something similar at 2I (when there were four Spears present) but not at 3I (no Spears present) and then we see it at 4I (two Spears present).
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Postby Charsi » Tue May 28, 2013 9:01 am

View Original PostTheFriskyIan wrote:Why do the spears need to be so specific for fixing the world? I mean Eva 13 didn't really do anything until the 12th Angel turned into a core. If the 12th Angel wasn't even there and it was still two Longinus Spears, would that really be bad? Like I said, after the spears were pulled Eva 13 just kinda floated there staring off into space.


I've asked exactly the same thing. Actually you can draw a parallel between 2.22 and 3.33 in that respects... in both cases the impact didn't actually begin until the Evangelion absorbed the core of an Angel: in 2.22 it was Bardiel/Rei, in 3.33 it was the 12th Angel.

The answer is we simply have no idea. There is a suspicion floating around that spears are used to halt or arrest things: halt evolution/ascension, impact, collapse of self, etc. By pulling the spears, Lilith's form resumed collapsing, freeing Mark.06 and the 12th Angel locked within.

As for why Eva-13 took the spears, maybe they didn't want to leave them there as a possible weapon to stop 13's ascension. Still, even two spears through the body didn't close the door of Guf, so who the hell knows?

I speculate that Kaworu didn't expect the 12th to (still?) be locked within Mark.06, and the spear shape gives away the game.
Last edited by Charsi on Tue May 28, 2013 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.


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