The Spears

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final installment is scheduled to debut in Japan on January 23, 2021.

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[SPOILERS]The Spears

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Postby Shinoyami65 » Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:28 am

This thread is for discussion about the origins, purpose, and abilities of the Spears of Longinus and Cassius in Rebuild. So far the Spears we know of are:

Spear of Longinus
Image
Our favourite red helical bident returns. Once again it is first seen embedded in Lilith in Terminal Dogma. Two are seen at Second Impact, alongside two Spears whose type is not confirmed.
In 3.0, the second is seen embedded in the Mark. 06, while the other remains embedded in Lilith. Both Spears impale Eva-13 after Mari removes Shinji's entry plug.
Spear of Cassius
Image
More spear-shaped than the Spear of Longinus. Originally seen on the Moon with the Mark.06, origins unknown. Possibly one of the Spears at Second Impact. Wielded by the Mark.06 to stop God Mode Eva-01. May have the same A.T. Field-piercing properties as the Spear of Longinus in the TV series, as it doesn't have any difficulty in piercing God Mode Eva-01. Could restore the world in an unspecified way with a Longinus-type Spear. Status unconfirmed after first and only usage thus far. A similar object is used by Asuka in Eva-02 during the Nemesis Units' assault against the AAA Wunder, seemingly causing Eva-01 to supply power to the Wunder.

Anti-Angel Extermination Weapon Spear of Longinus Basic Type (Pseudo-Restoration)
Image
A jousting-lance type weapon. Used only once by Provisional Evangelion Unit-05 against the Third Angel. Lost near the end of the battle, status unconfirmed. May have A.T. Field piercing properties, seeing as it penetrates the Third Angel's A.T. Field (although this may be attributed to the Eva itself). Origins unknown; may be an artificial replica of the Spear of Longinus or a weaponised "pseudo-restored" Spear.[/spoiler]
Last edited by Shinoyami65 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:32 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: [SPOILERS]The Spears

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Postby Reichu » Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:05 am

View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:Two are seen at Second Impact.

Four, like in the screenshot posted.

Lost halfway through the battle

Toward the very end. The Spear is dropped when Mari gives control of that arm to Eva-05 itself (because she doesn't have enough power left to synch with both), so the two clamp-hands can crush the Angel's core.
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Re: [SPOILERS]The Spears

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Postby Shinoyami65 » Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:15 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Four, like in the screenshot posted..

Not necessarily. We can clearly see two Longinus-type Spears , but the other two don't have clear ends- they could be Cassius-type.
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Re: [SPOILERS]The Spears

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Postby Reichu » Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:26 am

View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:Not necessarily. We can clearly see two Longinus-type Spears , but the other two don't have clear ends- they could be Cassius-type.

Yes, you do have a point there. -o-; That would also explain how a Cassius-type ended up getting blown to the Moon with the Adam that became Mark.06.
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Postby Kendrix » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:08 am

Rebuild could very well be the answer to "What if Lillith's spear had remained intact? (and if the FAR had the decency of sending a replacement for each)" with that setting off a domino effect.


I feel that whatever happened to the two cassius-types will be relevant in Final. Don't think there'll be an actual reset button in either case, though.

I like how "two different spears = unforseen power" is similar to the "forbidden fusion".
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Postby Shinoyami65 » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:16 am

It's also interesting that SEELE seems to have experimented with making artificial Spears, such as Eva-05's. Maybe they didn't think they would find the second one? That also raises the question of how they found the second Spear of Longinus, as we didn't know about it before and Kaworu is surprised to see it, suggesting that its recovery was kept under wraps, even during the timeskip.
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Postby TheFriskyIan » Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:02 pm

Doesn't anyone find it a bit awkward that Shinji and Kaworu's plan was highly specific with the spears/lances? Spear of Cassius + Lance of Longinus = Everything's okay! Lance of Longinus + Lance of Longinus = WE'RE ALL FUCKED! What happened to the Spear Kaworu rode in with on the Mark 06?
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Postby pioneer » Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:38 pm

Is it confirmed somehow that there are two Cassius type spears? I previously assumed that the four spears in the above screen shot corresponded to the four Adams, and then Lilith has her own spears. With that thinking, wouldn't the total spear count be 5? With at least 2 of them being Longinus and at least one of them being Cassius, and the other two having a higher probability of being Longinus than Cassius?

In regards to 05's spear, does anyone think that the anti-AT field weapon used by nemesis 04 is related to 05's spear?

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Postby Reichu » Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:51 pm

View Original Postpioneer wrote:Is it confirmed somehow that there are two Cassius type spears?

It's just conjecture. All that was being said above is that only two of the Spears at Second Impact can DEFINITELY be said to be Longinus-type, due to all but the shaft sections being off-screen.

"Longinus for Adams, Cassius for Lilith" is one possibility. However, this doesn't take into account the fact that a Cassius-type was apparently found with Mark.06 (very likely one of the Adams from 2I) on the Moon.

The first thought that crosses Kaworu's mind is that "the Spears have changed to the same shape". This introduces the possibility that the Spears do not have a fixed form, and can be converted from one "type" to another.

In regards to 05's spear, does anyone think that the anti-AT field weapon used by nemesis 04 is related to 05's spear?

Just to clear up the terminology: the Angel-like entities seen in Eva 3.0 are designated "Code 4"-something (4A, 4B, 4C), and 4C is further elaborated to be the "Nemesis Series".

And, yeah, they could be related.
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Postby bladerj » Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:53 pm

i'm more intrigued how kaworu knew the lances were diferent, but took a whole time to figure this, sherlock holmes style.
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Postby pioneer » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:26 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:
"Longinus for Adams, Cassius for Lilith" is one possibility. However, this doesn't take into account the fact that a Cassius-type was apparently found with Mark.06 (very likely one of the Adams from 2I) on the Moon.

...

Just to clear up the terminology: the Angel-like entities seen in Eva 3.0 are designated "Code 4"-something (4A, 4B, 4C), and 4C is further elaborated to be the "Nemesis Series".

And, yeah, they could be related.


Is it a fact that a Cassius-type spear was found with Mark.06? Is it a fact that the spear used by 06 at the end of 2.0 a Spear of Cassius? Maybe I missed that detail? I'm still not sure if it's explicit that 06 was found on the moon or if it was constructed on the moon? My confusion over that also applies to the spear 06 uses: was it found on the moon or did they move it to the moon?

To contradict myself, 05's spear and the anti-AT field weapon used by 4A are related, why would Asuka be surprised that it is using such a weapon if it was developed 15 years before? Perhaps Nerv/Will-E never knew what was going on with 05 in the first place?

If it is confirmed that Mark.06 used a Spear of Cassius to stop God Mode 01 from completing Third Impact/possibly HIP, what does it say about unit 01? Since Lilith is stabbed with LoL with seemingly no adverse effect on the world, and same goes for Mark.06, is Mark.06 made from Lilith? I presume penetrating an Angel's core with a LoL destroys the Angels (no idea here, just guessing)? Thus, were LoLs used on Mark.06 and Lilith to disable them as opposed to destroy them? If so, why isn't Mark.06 destroyed when being pierced with the LoL? Is it actually Lilith based instead of an Adam? Is 01 not made from Lilth? Was the (supposed) Spear of Cassius used on 01 because it is actually made from an Adam? Thus, the Spear of Cassius would disable it instead of destroy it (this is the inverse of the LoL making Lilith inactive/dormant/disabled as opposed to Lilth being destroyed by the LoL, I am assuming Cassius's effect is the converse)?

If this doesn't make sense to any of you, please just say so calmly instead of debasing my (confused) speculation or just plain insulting me.

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Postby Reichu » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:40 pm

pioneer: Very little is ever confirmed in Eva, hence all of the dancing around with words like "apparently" (= "seems like it could be the case, but we just don't know").

Tabgha Base is described as an "excavation site" in Explanation of Evangelion 1.01. Hence, Mark.06 and the Spear of Cassius were probably both blasted to the Moon by 2I, and Seele set up a Nerv base there to take advantage of both finds.

Mark.06's Spear was announced as the Spear of Cassius in the pachinko games.
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Postby Darkwing » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:42 pm

No don't worry. We're all just making speculation trying to figure out what's going one. I'm sure it'll all be clearly explained in Final.

As it is, at this point we don't have enough information to go on. It's possible there were two of each, or it's possible that the spears can switch modes.
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Postby Adam » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:29 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:"Longinus for Adams, Cassius for Lilith" is one possibility. However, this doesn't take into account the fact that a Cassius-type was apparently found with Mark.06 (very likely one of the Adams from 2I) on the Moon.

The moon was created by Lilith crashlanding on Earth, right? So during the process, Lilith's lace could just have be blown away from Earth together with the debris (=moon).
View Original PostReichu wrote:The first thought that crosses Kaworu's mind is that "the Spears have changed to the same shape". This introduces the possibility that the Spears do not have a fixed form, and can be converted from one "type" to another.

Well, the question regarding the last line above would be, if the Lance of Cassius shapeshifts at all, when being thrown. At least in the end of 2.0 it stays in the same shape all the time. So it might actually never change it's form, and this seems to be the reason for Kaworu's doubts in 3.0. The Japanese says:
01:08:32 {カヲル} 二本とも形状が変化して揃っている
01:08:32 {Kaworu} Both of the Spears have changed to a similar shape.
and I'm not sure about the English translation above (~して揃っている I'm not sure about), but it could rather mean "Both Spears have changed their shape (whereas only the Longinus one should have)".

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Postby Reichu » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:45 pm

View Original PostAdam wrote:The moon was created by Lilith crashlanding on Earth, right?

In the new movies? We don't know.

At least in the end of 2.0 it stays in the same shape all the time.

It actually would have needed to shapeshift (in a pretty instantaneous sort of way) in order to pierce Eva-01 the way it did. Try shoving something with a spearhead that massive through someone's back so that it neatly exits out the core...

I'm not sure about the English translation above (~して揃っている I'm not sure about)

Both Spears (二本とも) have changed shape (形状が変化して) and become the same (揃っている).
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Postby UBERGEEKZILLA » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:42 am

i bet in finale they are going to find the other spear that karouw noticed was missing...and thus Shinji will redo time

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Postby Blue Monday » Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:47 am

For OP; Asuka in Unit-02 actually uses a Spear that's looks like a Cassius-type early in the film. It's when the Nemesis Series are attacking the Wille fleet. Don't really know what was going on there, but she's using the Spear to activate Unit-01 to power the Wunder or something.

Not sure if it is a Spear of Cassius, or just largely resembles ones... It looks like it may be a little augmented too, as it has a lighter thingy that super-heats the point.


...and thus Shinji will redo time

Q seems to make a large thematic point of this being a fallacy.

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Postby UBERGEEKZILLA » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:02 am

View Original PostBlue Monday wrote:Q seems to make a large thematic point of this being a fallacy.




and the big twist is that in the end hes ABLE to find a way to do it after all

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Postby Shinoyami65 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:18 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:It actually would have needed to shapeshift (in a pretty instantaneous sort of way) in order to pierce Eva-01 the way it did. Try shoving something with a spearhead that massive through someone's back so that it neatly exits out the core...


Both Spears (二本とも) have changed shape (形状が変化して) and become the same (揃っている).


The original Spear of Longinus became a sharp piercing object when aimed at Arael and then returned to its bident form after destroying the Angel. I suppose the Spears in Rebuild could have similar abilities. Does the phrase "become the same" suggest that Cassius-type Spears can change state to become Longinus-type? That would make it very confusing to keep track of which Spear is which. It also would offset the balance of Longinus-type Spears to Cassius-type Spears (unless, of course, Longinus-type Spears can be changed to Cassius-type Spears). It isn't the first time we've seen the Spears take the forms of other weapons though, as the concept first appeared as the weapons wielded by the MP Evas in EoE. I wonder what would cause a Cassius-type Spear to become Longinus-type? Hopefully Final will expand on what went on with the Mark.06, the Spear, and the Eleventh Angel.
Last edited by Shinoyami65 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Darkwing » Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:58 am

View Original PostUBERGEEKZILLA wrote:Q seems to make a large thematic point of this being a fallacy.




and the big twist is that in the end hes ABLE to find a way to do it after all[/quote]

Well that's true in Q. But things may end up changing in Final.
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