Lilith in 3.0 & Beyond

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The final installment is scheduled to debut in Japan on January 23, 2021.

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[SPOILERS] Lilith in 3.0 & Beyond

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Postby Shinoyami65 » Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:12 am

[Split from Mark.06 thread. Struck through text rendered non-topical as a result of the move.]

View Original PostReichu wrote:- Movie viewers, confirm, please: When Shinji pulls out the Spears from Lilith and Mark.06, Lilith explodes into red goo, while Mark.06 expresses "blood type: blue" and activates autonomously.


Why does Lilith die after the removal of the Spear? If it's meant to contain her, like the 12th Angel, then removing it should allow her more freedom (in the TV series, she regenerated her legs after the Spear was removed). [s]I also don't think we learn enough about the Mark.06 before its "demise". They never explained how it could generate a halo and operate without a power cable in 2.0, and then killed it off in 3.0. We may learn more about the Eva Mk. Units in 4.0, although I wouldn't count on it. We also don't learn what happened to Eva Units Mk.07 and 08, either. It seems that several Eva Units were destroyed (possibly by Wille) or were hidden somewhere by Nerv during the timeskip.[/s]
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Postby Marduk » Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:44 am

@Shinoyami65: Rebuild =/= NGE in certain aspects...
If I'm to draw any conclusions from how the spears have been behaving in rebuild, I'd say that the spears simply pushes the pause button on whatever is happening to their target. Not a suppression mechanism like in NGE, but, just... freezes the subject in time.
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Postby Shinoyami65 » Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:52 am

View Original PostMarduk wrote:@Shinoyami65: Rebuild =/= NGE in certain aspects...
If I'm to draw any conclusions from how the spears have been behaving in rebuild, I'd say that the spears simply pushes the pause button on whatever is happening to their target. Not a suppression mechanism like in NGE, but, just... freezes the subject in time.


So was Lilith destined to explode before the Spear was pulled from her? I wonder why that would be...
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Postby Reichu » Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:56 am

View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:Why does Lilith die after the removal of the Spear?

See, Lilith was apparently dead already...

Shinji:
Is this Lilith?

KAWORU:
It once was. It is her corpse.

Shinji:
Misato-san, even though we tried to protect it with our lives...


...and removing the Spear simply resulted in the "burst into red goo" phenomenon that's technically referred to as "image collapse".

[s]I wonder if it will be possible to discuss Mark.06 and its fate in 3.0 in sufficient detail without talking about Lilith, too... The scope of the discussion may need to be modified somewhat, but how to do that without making the topic name all spoiler-y?[/s]
Last edited by Reichu on Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Shinoyami65 » Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:18 am

So Lilith was already dead... could the Eleventh Angel have managed to kill her, or could it be the Mark.06? Although, she may have been dead because her soul, Rei, was removed. In EoE we see that some of Lilith's soul remains, but that may not be the case in NME and her soul was completely removed, thus there was nothing to support her A.T. Field, hence "image collapse". Lilith can still be considered to be alive in Rei II, who contains Lilith's soul, so I guess we can't strike the marshmallow goddess of the list yet.
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Postby Reichu » Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:32 am

Shinoyami: Probably not a good idea to consult NGE where image collapse is involved... In that version, "gods" (Seeds, Evas, Adam's children, et al.) did not burst into goo when their ATFs suffered critical failure.

It may not be possible to say much more about Lilith's death until we have the full visual component of the film available for reference.
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Postby Darkwing » Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:26 am

Maybe Lilith died as a resualt of 3rd impact? I think we saw her glowing during the event. We may still end up with GNR, or we may not.

[s:188hxpiv]Kinda lame if they spent two movies building the Mark-06, and this is all they end up doing with it.[/s:188hxpiv]
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Postby Shinoyami65 » Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:19 am

I wonder how this is going to affect the covenant with Lilith mentioned by Gendo in 2.0...They can't do anything with her if she's dead. Or maybe they only need Lilith's soul, which is probably in Schoolgirl Rei in Eva-01.
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Postby Seele00TextOnly » Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:02 pm

So something I was thinking about today, regarding the state Lilith is in. From what I recalled I could never get a full picture of her, and I'm not sure that's entirely the fault of the camrip quality. Just look at these snapshots and tell me if it feels like anything is being lampshaded to you:
SPOILER: Show
ImageImageImageImage
Notice how we never get to see her whole right arm, or whether it even ends in a hand anymore? Even in the last one where her body is expanding before blowing up from the spears removal, it tapers in so dramatically and isn't proportional with the other limbs?

Because, well...
SPOILER: Show
Image
Maybe just callback fun, maybe the camera is cutting off where it has a full forearm and hand. But for the moment anyway it certainly seems uncanny.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:21 pm

View Original PostSeele00TextOnly wrote:it tapers in so dramatically and isn't proportional with the other limbs?

Made me think more of this, actually.

maybe the camera is cutting off where it has a full forearm and hand.

I'm pretty sure the right hand would be visible in the final shot where she explodes. We're missing the far left side of the screen for most of the film.

Also, been meaning to post about this for a while: but anybody remember those creepy Lilith concepts from 1.0? Check out the ones by okama again. They've clearly brought back the weird gridded skin for 3.0. Wouldn't surprise me if okama was in charge of 3.0 Lilith's design (along with the surreal Geofront imagery, for that matter; he designed the "neuron chamber" of Level EEE).
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Postby CJD » Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:42 am

View Original PostSeele00TextOnly wrote:Because, well...
SPOILER: Show
Image
Maybe just callback fun, maybe the camera is cutting off where it has a full forearm and hand. But for the moment anyway it certainly seems uncanny.


You're not implying Lilith in 3.0 is in some way related to GNR from EoE, are you? I don't mean to sound incredulous, I was just under the assumption that you were one of the larger opponents to the sequel theory. If we are seriously entertaining the idea I'd mention the giant Lilith/Rei/Yui head. How any of that relates to the Lilith we see in 1.0 and 2.0, though, I have no bloody clue. I suppose it's possible Gendo and Seele pulled the old switcheroo, but there'd still need to be a lot of hand waving to explain discrepancies.

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Postby Shinoyami65 » Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:17 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:.
Also, been meaning to post about this for a while: but anybody remember those creepy Lilith concepts from 1.0? Check out the ones by okama again. They've clearly brought back the weird gridded skin for 3.0. Wouldn't surprise me if okama was in charge of 3.0 Lilith's design (along with the surreal Geofront imagery, for that matter; he designed the "neuron chamber" of Level EEE).


Wow those drawings are cool. Creepy, but cool. It seems Lilith was originally supposed to have her original SEELE-faceplate mask, but they changed it to a Sachiel one.. could this have some sort of deeper significance about the relationship between Lilith and the Adam-type Angels (Sachiel and co.) or is it just a design overhaul decision?

Not sure what the gridded skin was meant to symbolise on the original concept, but seems that it's now meant to be something that happened during the timeskip.

It wouldn't surprise me either if Okama was in charge of the design of Lilith and Lilith's head... The way the head started crying blood (LCL?) out of nowhere and the way it exploded was freaky. Kind of reminded me of how Sachiel exploded in a way.

Lilith's death pose is interesting, as she's on her knees, severely injured by whatever unseen force(s) defeated her. Which is weird, because Lilith is basically a god, and very few beings can be considered her equal. My only guess at this point is the Mark.06 or one of the missing Evas somehow acquired God Mode powers before its demise, although the degree of Lilith's injury seems to suggest that there was also a very large cutting device involved (thus the big gaping hole in the abdomen, missing right leg and severed head), or possibly just some ATF mastery.
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Postby Seele00TextOnly » Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:49 pm

View Original PostCJD wrote:You're not implying Lilith in 3.0 is in some way related to GNR from EoE, are you? I don't mean to sound incredulous, I was just under the assumption that you were one of the larger opponents to the sequel theory.
I was being half silly, honestly. To me it's notable perhaps as a slight homage, or just them being cheeky (like most of the sequel speculation tidbits). In general though I try to at least be objective enough to, if I think I see something of note, even if I don't agree with or like it, to still make sure it gets noted.
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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:32 pm

I thought it looked a bit like Zeruel after it had been infected with the Rei virus.

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Postby Shinoyami65 » Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:55 pm

I talked about this mostly in the Impact thread, but I think there was a big battle between the awakened Lilith, all the available Evas and some military forces a while after 3I. During the battle, Lilith manages to annihilate most of the forces against her but finally is weakened to the point of death and is then beheaded and speared by the Mark.06, which fuses with her. Before or during the battle, Lilith beings to go full GNR, but is stopped before she can change more than her head. Lilith's heavy battle injuries and the remains of some of military equipment in her chamber and scattered around Nerv are probably remnants of that battle. It would also explain why there are some Evas missing, as they may have been defeated by Lilith and destroyed.
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Postby K40s » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:04 pm

View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:Lilith beings to go full GNR, but is stopped before she can change more than her head.
I was thinking more like she went GNR got beheaded and the body impaled (note no lance impaling the head) by direct contact with the lance the body returns to normal Lilith's marshmallow but the head not being in contact with the body and not being in contact with the lances remains Reiesque.

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Postby ShikinamiFan » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:25 pm

Ok, in Evangelion 1.11 we're shown a big scar all over Lilith's chest, so maybe Lilith's body explodes as every Angel does just because she is missing her core. The lance of Longinus is there just to stop the process of exploding her coreless body, as if freezing her.
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Postby Jinroh » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:32 pm

The body doesn't really return to "normal" since it's like 20 times its normal size... Lilith was the size of a normal eva-unit.

It seems she kept growing when she fused with mark 06, since this unit was like 4-6 times its original size when eva 13 removes the lances.

I really wonder why the hell would anno skip that part of the story. He knew everyone would be confused as hell.

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Postby Darkwing » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:57 pm

View Original PostJinroh wrote:
I really wonder why the hell would anno skip that part of the story. He knew everyone would be confused as hell.


I think you answered your own question there.

Sometimes I wonder if Anno isn't just throwing crazy shit out, has no long term plan, and is a master bullshitter. All the development mariels that seem to disprove this? He made them latter. That was a joke.
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Postby DemonSpade » Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:45 pm

SPOILER: Show
Image


Looks like Lilith got reduced to her (gigantic) embryonic form after the spears were pulled, much like Adam did when 2I occured. Just like Gendo did with Adam in NGE, Eva 13 has now consumed Lilith. Does that mean we'll get to see Eva 13 growing creepy tumors somewhere on her body as well?


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