DSS Choker

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Postby Reichu » Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:15 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:I don't know, why (...)

I'm just passing a tidbit along. That's what the text says, whether you like it or not. Put another way, it's an "observation and suppression program for synchronization".

I didn't write the thing and I'm done fanwanking 3.0 for now, so you guys are on your own for the rest.

Which part of her statement is the "from this point forward"?

She says, "Anata wa mou, nani mo shinaide." "Mou" here basically means "anymore", so the "anata wa ... nani mo shinaide" (you ain't doin' nothing) extends indefinitely into the future.
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Postby ElMariachi » Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:30 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:She says, "Anata wa mou, nani mo shinaide." "Mou" here basically means "anymore", so the "anata wa ... nani mo shinaide" (you ain't doin' nothing) extends indefinitely into the future.

Oooooookay! I thought that she said "Anata o, nani mo shinaide."

... well, here goes one of my favorites theories about what Misato had in mind for Shinji, they really intended to keep him locked in a cell. ;_;
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Postby wiser3754 » Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:08 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Oooooookay! I thought that she said "Anata o, nani mo shinaide."

... well, here goes one of my favorites theories about what Misato had in mind for Shinji, they really intended to keep him locked in a cell. ;_;


While this is going off topic, you don't find it weird that Misato's stone hard expression when she takes off her glasses and shouts that line immediately softens shortly after it? Keep in mind, the entire bridge crew are looking at Shinji, not at Misato so I guess the don't see it.
So don't feel too discouraged about your theory, besides, Misato knew NERV would send out retrieval party for EVA-01, but to her greatest surprise, they were after Shinji. So even if Shinji didn't go with REIQ, Misato would've had to stick him somewhere else besides a massive flying behemoth.
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Postby Monk Ed » Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:15 am

[The text below is a tangent from the "So why didn't the 10th Angel go God Mode?" thread. Because the tangent consisted almost entirely of parts-of-posts rather than whole posts, there was really no way to do this but to make a new post in one topic or the other filled with parts-of-posts, because there's no way to actually split individual posts. - Monk]

View Original PostReichu wrote:Also, I still think the DSS Choker is to blame for the 0% synch thing.


View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:If it's the choker, wouldn't that have also locked Kaworu out of Unit-13? As always, there are a mountain of potential asterisks. Maybe the lockout only applies to Unit-01 (which seems like a design flaw). Maybe Kaworu learned how to modify it during his S-Dat mechanics course. Or maybe it's just his magic in general. In any event, I like the Rei explanation more. It's rooted in character instead of gobbledygook, usually a good thing in Eva.


View Original PostElMariachi wrote:
View Original PostReichu wrote:Also, I still think the DSS Choker is to blame for the 0% synch thing.

I don't know, I still don't see the point of lying to Shinji about the fact that the Choker prevents him from piloting, since they revealed just after that it would obliterate his head if he awakes an Eva or that they would activate it manually if he does something against them(like piloting).
Why they couldn't simply say that they want to make sure that he won't pilot again and thus put him a collar that prevents him to synchronize, and that if he tries something stupid, said collar is also a bomb?
Besides then why even put a detonation function if he awakes an Eva, if the thing already physically prevents him to pilot?


View Original PostReichu wrote:
I don't know, I still don't see the point of lying to Shinji about (snip)

I don't see the point of the choker having a clearly stated synchronization suppression function if the choker does not in fact have a function that suppresses synchronization. :tongue: I'm willing to call this one of those "naked facts" that it's probably futile to argue with.

Besides then why even put a detonation function if he awakes an Eva, if the thing already physically prevents him to pilot?

Better safe than sorry.

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:If it's the choker, wouldn't that have also locked Kaworu out of Unit-13?

Arguably the choker stopped doing its job as soon as Kaworu put it on. Take the detonation function, for instance. It was supposed to activate in the event the Eva underwent Awakening; removing the pilot trigger would short-circuit the imminent Impact, etc. etc. This obviously did not happen, as Eva-13 merrily awakened with both pilots intact, and went on to start Fourth Impact. The charges only actually went off after Kaworu decided that his death would be a good idea -- in fact, they trigger right after he finishes his farewell speech, which is awfully convenient -- suggesting that he had control over them the entire time. As such, it would be reasonable to surmise that the choker's other functions were slave to Kaworu's whim.


View Original PostElMariachi wrote:
I don't see the point of the choker having a clearly stated synchronization suppression function if the choker does not in fact have a function that suppresses synchronization. :tongue: I'm willing to call this one of those "naked facts" that it's probably futile to argue with.

The problem is that in the very well hidden screen on the DSS Detonator displaying it's called "Synchronization Observation and Suppression Function", but in the better shot where Ritsuko is explaining to Shinji what's the DSS Choker, you have a line called "Synchronization Observation" and another one called "Suppression Function" :
SPOILER: Show
Image

So why it's considered as one same function in the hard to see display screen of the Detonator, and showed as two different functions in the big and clear screen? It leads to confusion.


Better safe than sorry.

They're not sure he's Shinji Ikari, I keep forgetting that they're not sure that he's Shinji Ikari and not some angelic horror in disguise everytime I wonder about the absurd and draconian security measures(soldiers pointing their guns at his face, quarantine cell, security glass separating him from Misato, Ritsuko and Asuka...)
Makes you wonder, had neo-NERV not being interested on Shinji and after WILE confirms at 100% that it's him and not some other mutant horror, if they would eventually had loosened the security measures around him.


Arguably the choker stopped doing its job as soon as Kaworu put it on. snip

In short, yet another example of the Lilin's anti-Angel technology completely failing at its task! :tongue:
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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:33 pm

I was watching 3.33 again, and I noticed that when the collar activates, the little things orbiting Kaworu are Ramiel-shaped little pyramids. However, as the scene goes on, they extend until they reach their head-popping final size. Perhaps this has something to do with the theory that the collar has to charge before firing.

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Postby ElMariachi » Thu Nov 28, 2013 6:15 am

That the DSS Choker needs to charge seems obvious, whatever those red murder sticks are(artificial AT Field maybe) is very powerful, probably created to pierce Kaworu's insanely strong AT Field to kill him for sure.

It's the fact that it takes just so freaking long to charge and fire that's suspect, especially since the timing is so it fires just so Kawory had the time to make his farewell speech to Shinji.

Imagine that the awakening didn't happened in the ruins of Tokyo-3, but says in a WILLE base or Lilin settlement : seeing the destruction caused by a vortex(gravity going crazy, buildings exploding and floating), by the time the DSS Choker activates and detonates, the vortex would had the time to kill pretty much everyone in the base/settlement.
Sure the rest of the world would be saved from the Impact, but that still looks like a lousy guarantee if a settlement has to be obliterated in case of an Awakening...

That's why many people think that somehow Kaworu controlled(or at least delayed) the murder sticks to give him the time to bide his farewells to Shinji, and that had be Shinji the one wearing the collar, it would had exploded the second the Door of Guf opened.
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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Thu Nov 28, 2013 1:28 pm

Maybe it's just black-label bullshit that Kaworu was able to finish on time.

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Postby Sachi » Thu Nov 28, 2013 1:43 pm

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:Maybe it's just black-label bullshit that Kaworu was able to finish on time.

Indeed. Kaworu was able to finish because the plot demands that Shinji hear what Kaworu has to say before dying. In fact, the reason 90% of things occur the way they do is likely because the plot demands it. Why wouldn't anybody just talk and reason with Shinji? Because the plot demanded he be left in the dark. Although, it probably would have been more disturbing if Kaworu didn't get a chance to speak, and just seemingly loses his head as soon as the Eva awakens; Shinji would be so lost at that point, and probably just start screaming a la EoE.
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Postby ElMariachi » Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:20 pm

Well, seeing that he made various pauses in his speech to let his words sink to Shinji, he must have one hell of a timing to wrap up everything just at the right moment to make the scene more dramatic! :lol:

Since the guy was seen opening the DSS by just touching it, I don't find it far-fetched that he could exercises some form of control upon its other functions.

View Original PostSachi wrote:In fact, the reason 90% of things occur the way they do is likely because the plot demands it. Why wouldn't anybody just talk and reason with Shinji? Because the plot demanded he be left in the dark.

Well to be fair WILLE were explaining things to him, but this dude interrupted them before they get to the most important parts :
SPOILER: Show
[wkimg]File:Eva3-33 C0355.jpg[/wkimg]


And the others in neo-NERV had more interest in keeping him in the dark. Kaworu's lack of clear explanations is odd though, that's why some people(me included) think that he played his own game and was too manipulating Shinji, although for his own good and happiness(or at least what Kaworu perceived would be Shinji's happiness)
Last edited by ElMariachi on Thu Nov 28, 2013 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sachi » Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:49 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Well to be fair WILLE were explaining things to him, but this dude interrupted them before they get to the more important part

Exactly. They were about to give him some real answers, but then the plot comes and takes that away from him and the audience.

Kaworu's lack of clear explanations is odd though, that's why some people(me included) think that he played his own game and was too manipulating Shinji, although for his own good and happiness(or at least what Kaworu perceived would be Shinji's happiness)

It is an interesting notion that Kaworu may have been manipulative of Shinji, but it's difficult to see how and why he would do so. Kaworu claims to want happiness for Shinji, and perhaps he knows better than Shinji what exactly this happiness entails, but this is what makes Kaworu kind of a lame character; he doesn't appear to have an agenda of his own outside of making Shinji happy. All we really know about him is that he's the mysterious 13th Angel, he piloted Mark 06, he is sort of on Seele's payroll, he came from the moon, the DSS choker was originally designed for him, finds joy in life via music, and he has a huge boner for a smiling Shinji. We do know there is a more sober, serious side to Kaworu, one that is probably cold and calculating, but we hardly see that because he's too busy being cheery for Shinji.

In short, from what we've been seen through the movies, Kaworu is not a character yet, he is still a plot device designed to push Shinji to a certain point. Without a knowledge of his background, agenda, or even his personal thoughts, it's hard to see Kaworu as anything other than the cheery, creepy guy set out on Shinji's happiness. Perhaps we'll learn more in the next film, something that'll add a tremendous amount of the depth to his previous actions, but at this point his real intentions are vague at best. But I do like the idea of a more complex, manipulative Kaworu.
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Postby Giji Shinka » Thu Nov 28, 2013 3:00 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:In fact, the reason 90% of things occur the way they do is likely because the plot demands it.

Well, yeah.

If Anno hadn't made the plot the way it is now, there wouldn't be the "message" he wants to show.
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Postby kboyrulez12345 » Thu Nov 28, 2013 3:48 pm

Exactly. They were about to give him some real answers, but then the plot comes and takes that away from him and the audience.


Isn't that how most plot works though. Or at least, that's how I see it. Usually there's almost always coincidental stuff happening in the middle of stories...or at least, that's how I personally see it.
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Postby Sachi » Thu Nov 28, 2013 4:02 pm

View Original Postkboyrulez12345 wrote:Isn't that how most plot works though. Or at least, that's how I see it. Usually there's almost always coincidental stuff happening in the middle of stories...or at least, that's how I personally see it.

Yes, that's how many stories work. Audience's like to pose "what-if" questions and apply scrutiny to situations that aren't entirely realistic, however these decisions were actively made by the writers to push the plot forward, not to make the most realistic whatever. There's "bigger picture" consideration at work, rather than a focus on the minor details along the way.

For example, if Kaworu had the ability to remove and manipulate the DSS choker freely, then why did he put it on himself? He could have avoided dying so easily if he would have just disposed of the choker when he took it from Shinji. His intentions are vague at best, however we can say that this was a necessary action for him to take, because the plot would have him killed by it later. Other actions could have been taken, but this was the one action that needed to be done in order to move the plot forward in the intended direction.

Going back to why I originally jumped into this conversation: how Kaworu conveniently had enough time to say farewell to Shinji before the choker killed him. As a writer, you can tell a more effective story this way; you (the writer) can get much more of an emotional impact if we (the audience) get that farewell rather than if the choker would have gone off as soon as the Doors of Guf opened. Yes, realistically it should have just gone off, killed Kaworu, and that would have been the end of that, but we would lose so much of the experience if things had gone down that way.
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Postby kboyrulez12345 » Thu Nov 28, 2013 4:12 pm

@Sachi, Yeah, things are dubious at best right now. Though there are theories that Kaworu held the power of the choker to give his last words to Shinji, there's not enough evidence to support it. But...

For example, if Kaworu had the ability to remove and manipulate the DSS choker freely, then why did he put it on himself? He could have avoided dying so easily if he would have just disposed of the choker when he took it from Shinji. His intentions are vague at best, however we can say that this was a necessary action for him to take, because the plot would have him killed by it later. Other actions could have been taken, but this was the one action that needed to be done in order to move the plot forward in the intended direction.


I could have sworn that was because Kaworu wanted to gain the trust of Shinji and share the burden with him. He even said that outright if I recall...
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Postby ElMariachi » Thu Nov 28, 2013 7:04 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:Exactly. They were about to give him some real answers, but then the plot comes and takes that away from him and the audience.

Personally, I find Mark.09's timing so perfect that I'm sure that somehow Gendo has a way of spying on the Wunder and was actually monitoring Shinji's briefing : it intervened just after Misato said that "Rei doesn't exist anymore" but before she had the time to explain what she mean by that(that she's trapped inside EVA-01 without any means of escape, and thus "doesn't exist" in our plane of existence anymore), so that when Rei Q starts to talk to him, Shinji will think that Misato is lying to him and has gone bonker.

I repeat myself : the timing is just too perfect to be a mere coincidence, especially coming from someone like Gendo.

---
View Original PostSachi wrote:It is an interesting notion that Kaworu may have been manipulative of Shinji, but it's difficult to see how and why he would do so. Kaworu claims to want happiness for Shinji, and perhaps he knows better than Shinji what exactly this happiness entails, but this is what makes Kaworu kind of a lame character snip

Well, first Kaworu omits to tell Shinji some very important pieces of information, like the fact he was the one who stopped N3I with his spear of Cassius, that the world wasn't immediately in the state we saw it in Q, that there is an organization called SEELE to which Gendo and Kaworu himself answers to(and that's an important information, they're the ones who started this whole HIP madness), through the movie he always talked about thwarting Gendo and NERV(which now are one and the same) but never SEELE, although they are the ones behind the plan to take the spears to start a proper HIP(again, he enver even revealed their existence to Shinji), that he never exactly explained to Shinji how the two spears were supposed to "repair the world" and why it was imperative that they have a Cassius and a Longinus, which maybe would have made Shinji understand why their plan was screwed when the two spears in Lilith's Chamber are revealed to be Longinus, or how is it that Lilith's Chamber is the epicenter of Third Impact if Shinji's N3I was kilometers above in the Geofront, or what exactly happened with the Mark.06, Lilith and the spears. Oh yeah and the fact that there is a fucking Angel still alive inside the chamber!


I entertained the theory that actually Kaworu wanted HIP to happen because in his mind that would be the way to bring to Shinji happiness, but he refused to tell him that by fear that he rejects it, so resigned himself to manipulate Shinji "for his own good" with omissions and half-truths.(never outright lies, because he would never be able to lie to his beloved Shinji-kun)

To prove my point : even with the two LoL, in the end Fuyutsuki said that "nearly everything went as SEELE desired", meaning that the LoC was never useful to their plan aside of a powerful weapon if things get sour. Since before the time skip they wanted to use the Mark.06(a single-pilot unit) to launch HIP, and since Q proved that they didn't needed the LoC for it, the logical conclusion is that in fact they only needs one LoL and an awakened Evangelion for HIP.

And Kaworu's plan did included a LoL, so maybe while the LoC would really had restored the planet, the LoL would had triggered HIP to evolve everyone into new beings with the FoL, and since he managed to repair the world, Shinji would be in a much more favorable states of mind to accept Instrumentality, especially since Kaworu told him the truth about repairing the world, and thus proved that he's trustworthy. Had he just started HIP without restoring the world, Shinji would had lost all trust in Kaworu and rejected Instrumentality. Remember that Shinji is notoriously very reluctant to give his trust to anyone, especially with a manipulative bastard like Gendo as a father and his mother figure and friends who seemingly turned their back on him for something he didn't know would happen when he tried to save Rei, he said it himself :
01:01:32 {Kaworu} That which was changed by Eva can be restored by Eva in turn.
01:11:45 {Shinji} You say that, but my father, Evas, Misato-san...
01:11:48 {Shinji} I can't believe in anyone, or anything!

Even before the time skip it was hard to gain his complete trust, and after the time skip it became nigh impossible without some very heavy mark of trust, like taking off the DSS Choker from Shinji on putting it on himself, thus shouldering the risk of dying if thnigs go wrong during their operation.
Last but not least, unlike in NGE, it seemed that Kaworu's death wasn't even necessary to SEELE's plans : when he noticed that the spears had morphed into two LoL, he said that they were tricked by Gendo, not SEELE(unlike in NGE when he explicitely said that SEELE tricked him into thinking that it was ADAM in Terminal Dogma, while it actually was Lilith), and when he was casted down as the 13th Angel, Mari said that there shouldn't be a 13th and again, that it was Gendo's schemes. If Kaworu isn't in the hit list of Angels, then he doesn't have any reason to betray SEELE, as long as their plan coincide(Shinji's happiness for Kaworu, HIP for SEELE), and they did... until the expedition with EVA-13.

Plus he never said that Instrumentality was a bad thing for mankind(unlike in NGE where he said that it was not the path for the Lilin), only what is it and that it was programmed since time immemorial(like it was mankind's destiny since its creation, and if by "time immemorial" he meant the FAR era, he might be right)

---
I admit that this obsession with making Shinji happy makes him a rather flat character, if outright makes him more of a plot device than a character on his own right. I really hope that we'll learn more about his intentions in FINAL, because it's definitively not normal that the very first thing he says when literally being born in the Moon is that he's eager to meet again Shinji and make him happy. There is definitively something fishy here!
Last edited by ElMariachi on Fri Nov 29, 2013 3:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby Monk Ed » Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:13 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:For example, if Kaworu had the ability to remove and manipulate the DSS choker freely, then why did he put it on himself? He could have avoided dying so easily if he would have just disposed of the choker when he took it from Shinji.

Because if he hadn't died Fourth Impact would have gone through. I thought this was clear. I feel like it's been explained ad-nauseum at this point: Kaworu put the choker on himself so that it would kill him if the Eva awakened and therefore stop (or at least help stop) the awakening.
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Postby Sachi » Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:40 pm

View Original PostMonk Ed wrote:Because if he hadn't died Fourth Impact would have gone through. I thought this was clear. I feel like it's been explained ad-nauseum at this point: Kaworu put the choker on himself so that it would kill him if the Eva awakened and therefore stop (or at least help stop) the awakening.

I was mostly begging the question with that example. There are many valid interpretations for Kaworu's actions, and this is a good one; he needed to gain Shinji's trust, and I suppose by proxy it allowed for his death, which was half of what was necessary to avert Fourth Impact (the other half was removing Shinji from the Eva). I can easily see the cause and effect of the actions within the plot, but overall, I mean, Kaworu's intentions are vague, and without more context it's very difficult to interpret him as a character. On one hand, it seems Kaworu is the nice and wise person he presents himself as, but on the other hand the implications of his existence and his actions in Q suggests that there must be more going on in his head than we're let on. He may fool Shinji, but that Kaworu kid is trouble. The problem is that he literally never interacts with anybody but Shinji in Q, which again, makes him more of a plot device than a character.
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Postby Ukago » Sat Jan 04, 2014 3:50 am

What do you guys think about similarity of DSS C. and this logo. It is international human rights campaign, with red color particulary standing for homo-marriage equality.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Jan 04, 2014 3:59 am

The pink "=" meme exploded about six months after Q's release -- so clearly an S/K fan must have seen the movie and used the choker design as a logo.
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Postby Ukago » Sat Jan 04, 2014 4:17 am

It was around before the wide FB campaign


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