What was the point of 2.0 again?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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[SPOILERS] What was the point of 2.0 again?

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Postby Mr. Tines » Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:45 pm

In which I play the grumpy old git and vent at my continuing beef with the Rebuilds...

When Ha came out, I got a bad feeling of there being just change for change's sake in the stuff we saw in the trailers (different angels, space shit), and had that confirmed by tales of some imposters who took over from Rei and Asuka (comparing where they've been cutting while sharing a lift, for goodness' sake!).

And yet by the time we get to Q, all the shit that turned me off from Ha has been unceremoniously shown the door. And that really irritates me.

The only changes that persisted are
  • Mari -- well, her first outing could replace Jet Alone as the "there is more going on than has been apparent up to now." tangent
  • Asuka in 03, Bardiel'd and all these years later still mad at Shinji -- make the assignment to EVA-03 some sort of ego-feeding test-pilot deal
  • Shinji's focus on Rei -- just don't drop the damned ball with that thread at the end of Jo like happened in the series.
and that sets up the cataclysm at the end of Ha far more economically, to play straight into the Q future as we currently understand it.
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Postby Ramiel² » Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:42 pm

I allready wondered about that aswell, but imo it goes even further then that.

There are several 'Threads' from the first Movie that just seem to be totally thrown out of the window for this Story.

More so the timeskip from Q which totally interruppts the flow of the Plot.
For me the most plausable reason there was a timeskip at all, so far from what ive hear, can only be a device to let Seele's Masterplan beeing dropped, Gendo beeing in Charge so the plot can be forcefully rewritten.

Ofcourse FINAL could give some flashbacks what else happened in those 14 years but Q just seem to cuts all ends of everything that was originally planned to happen in this new Set of Evangelion Movies.

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Postby Charsi » Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:13 pm

Some of this is probably explainable by, I don't know, actually watching the movie. Obligatory disclaimer goes here. Some of it though is really nagging me.. hints and tweaks that seems to have been written into 2.22 but dropped in 3.0.
    - Why did Mari have to parachute into Japan? Who the hell is she? How did she thaw, get into and launch Eva-02 without operations authorization? By herself?
    - Double, triple agent Kaji? Who's he really working for and why? What happened to him?
    - What's the purpose of the Key of Nebuchadnezzar? Why replace the Adam embryo from the TV series if you're just going to throw it out?
    - What's with the 27th track briefly seen on Shinji's SDAT?
    - Where are they getting parts for so many Evangelions (possibly hinted at by "additional apocrypha" statement)? Are they just scrounging, cobbling together bits?
    - How does someone even pull off a coup/heist/inside job like WILLE - a splinter organization possessing Evangelion-killing capabilities?
    - How did Misato manage to flip pretty much every knowledgeable technical within NERV? And build a massive fleet, including a capitol ship, on the quiet that can't even fly until it gets EVA-01 components?
    - How is NERV even operating now? Who's staffing it?
    - Why let WILLE retrieve Shinji/EVA-01? For that matter why would WILLE even allow Shinji to live if they just wanted EVA-01 and he was an unexpected part of the bargain? Why bother with a bomb collar, just shoot him, or better yet, actually explain the situation to him.
    - Where's Seele? Weren't they not going to take this lying down, only to lie down and die quietly? I take it there's no MP series.
    - Why have we never heard of this Lance of Cassius before?
    - What was the point of all the angels seemingly emerging from coffins on the moon?
    - Where the hell did the 3.0 preview scenes seen at the end of 2.0 go? Was that just scrapped entirely?
    - How has an impact event that is visually smaller than Japan seemingly escalated into a worldwide catastrophe in a decade?
    - Why would Asuka be mad at Shinji for Bardiel? Did she just not ask any of the bridge crew what really happened?

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Postby Ynnead » Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:14 pm

Mari and the Key feel more like Shoes that have yet to drop then plot elements that have been completely abandoned.

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Postby esselfortium » Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:16 pm

View Original PostCharsi wrote:- Why would Asuka be mad at Shinji for Bardiel? Did she just not ask any of the bridge crew what really happened?

According to translation that's been done so far, she isn't. She has plenty of better reasons to be mad at him.

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Postby Reichu » Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:40 pm

Mark.06

- First two movies: Hyped up as super-mysterious and -powerful Eva, Seele's trump card, Eva-01's evil twin, and some kind of god incarnate.
- 3.0: Left to gather dust in Central Dogma, impaled on a Spear. Hosting 12th Angel inside its body for some reason. Decapitated. Impact privileges go to Eva-13 instead.

Lilith

- First two movies: Design mysteriously changed to give her a huge chest scar and an "Angel face" mask. Much ado made over a "convent with Lilith" and her eventual "resurrection".
- 3.0: Further mutilated during 14-year interim. Explodes into red goo instead of being "resurrected".
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
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Postby Coldwire » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:24 pm

This all seem like crazy fanfiction. I'm sure I'll enjoy this story but it will never come near the greatness and dept of the original. With all this changes the whole development from 1.0 and 2.0 has gone to hell, and it feels we are starting from 0 once again and all the unresolved stuff that you guys pointed out is going to remain that way. Well, we will always have the original series and EoE that's something that not even Anno can mess up, right?
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Postby Jayfive » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:26 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Mark.06

- First two movies: Hyped up as super-mysterious and -powerful Eva, Seele's trump card, Eva-01's evil twin, and some kind of god incarnate.
- 3.0: Left to gather dust in Central Dogma, impaled on a Spear. Hosting 12th Angel inside its body for some reason. Decapitated. Impact privileges go to Eva-13 instead.

Lilith

- First two movies: Design mysteriously changed to give her a huge chest scar and an "Angel face" mask. Much ado made over a "convent with Lilith" and her eventual "resurrection".
- 3.0: Further mutilated during 14-year interim. Explodes into red goo instead of being "resurrected".


themastermranno.jpg :P

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Postby Xard » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:29 pm

View Original PostColdwire wrote:This all seem like crazy fanfiction. I'm sure I'll enjoy this story but it will never come near the greatness and dept of the original. With all this changes the whole development from 1.0 and 2.0 has gone to hell, and it feels we are starting from 0 once again and all the unresolved stuff that you guys pointed out is going to remain that way. Well, we will always have the original series and EoE that's something that not even Anno can mess up, right?


What have we told you about the reaction images?


but original NGE is a retcon build upon a retcon build upon retcon and Anno shifts the "storytelling" style and what is the point of it all halfway through. At least with Rebuild we're at most talking about vague unexplained line or two or plot tangents instead of anything of that magnitude - and those "whoopsiedaisies" are present in original in numbers too (SEELE-Gendo discussion in ep 10 makes no damn sense in light of late series and EoE which is no surprise as Anno hadn't at that point even decided what the fuck Instrumentality Project was)


Perhaps I'll muster a lenghtier reply here after I finish Part 2 of my bigass RoE/NGE analysis I've been slaving on for hours.
Last edited by Xard on Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:32 pm, edited 4 times in total.
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
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And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
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Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby JoeD80 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:30 pm

3.0 Preview Events

I believe the events happen between 2.0 and 3.0. But we only get quick glances since the story is supposed to be from Shinji's perspective. Perhaps this is even the reason that the preview kept flashing "Do Not Enter" / "Keep Out."

As for the events that were mentioned and seen in the preview:

-We know Eva 01 was frozen with Shinji in it since that's what Asuka and Mari go to pick up
-We know the fortress is pretty much in ruins as Kaworu and Shinji play around in there
-NERV personnel confined; and it says "Near Third Impact Eyewitness". This one I'm not sure, but perhaps Kaji?
-Eva-06 is shown in Dogma
-Eva-08 exists and is being piloted by Mari
-Shinji and Kaworu meet as fated

As for the quick scenes at the end that just has a narration about "people wishing to live", those don't seem to correspond so much (Gendo in the mountains, Kaji pointing a gun, all the Reis in the same room):

-we do know that another Rei now exists, piloting Mark 09.
-in regards to Asuka's eyepatch, in 2.0 when Ritsuko says she's useful as a sample or something along those lines you can see something piercing that same eye in her stasis chamber

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Postby os189 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:45 pm

The point of 2.0 was that it was a kick-ass movie with balls to the wall action, great character development and interaction, and underneath it all, there was some real HEART to it.

Now that I've accepted that they are literally pulling this shit outta their asses and making it up as they go, it's a lot more fun for me.

I used to be one of those really anal/OCD type viewers that always wants to figure everything out. "Twin Peaks" and "LOST" drove me INSANE. I was constantly going over every detail trying to make them all fit, trying to make sense of it, but the truth is....both series were a total cheat. The creators were just making it up on the fly....addind and subtracting and contradicting themselves at every turn.

When I first watched Rebuild 01....You Are (Not) Alone....man, was I underwhelmed. What a snoozer! I've seen all those scenes a thousand times. Yes, it was prettier in HD and the Angel fights were better....but it felt SO lifeless and soulless. What was the freaking point?

But in June 2009, I went to see HA on opening day, only because it was a dream of mine for the last decade to actually see an Eva movie in the cinema in Japan on opening day. I expected more of the same. But right from the opening frames my ass was blown away!! The creators threw it all out the window and started from scratch and started having FUN with it, and it showed! It was awesome, fresh, and exciting!

So I again got to experience an opening day with 3.0. Not as good as HA, but still shows that the creators are having fun with the concept and pushing new boundaries and just going wild. It's SO much better than that lifeless update of the original that I thought the Rebuild was going to be....wouldn't most fans agree with that?

If you stop obsessing over details and just accept that behind-the-scenes there really is NO plan or "meaning" to it all other than just making a crazy cartoon, maybe everyone will be able to enjoy it more.

What do they say about Freud? Sometimes a cigar really is just a cigar. And maybe sometimes an anime really is just an action packed cartoon meant to entertain for 90 minutes without profoundly changing the viewer's life.

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Postby FluffyBunny » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:27 pm

View Original Postos189 wrote:If you stop obsessing over details and just accept that behind-the-scenes there really is NO plan or "meaning" to it all other than just making a crazy cartoon, maybe everyone will be able to enjoy it more.

What do they say about Freud? Sometimes a cigar really is just a cigar. And maybe sometimes an anime really is just an action packed cartoon meant to entertain for 90 minutes without profoundly changing the viewer's life.

Very well said -- I couldn't agree more. It's their movie(s) and it's great that they can share the fun they're having.

(Well the trouble is some of us got emotionally invested in 2.0 storyline. Shinji shows some backbone, goes after the girl (setting aside Rei being his mom's clone for a moment) and rescues her. I was like 'yeah I'm happy for you, go for it'. Then I hear that storyline has gone nowhere... Oh well, I'll survive and move on.)

*edit*
I'm contradicting myself.. (My left brain says yeah accept it and move on. My right brain says what the heck is that.) I'll shut up and go back to my cave now.

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Postby Cruel Thesis 2 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:01 pm

I remember people saying that we shouldn’t criticize 2.0 for its shallow depiction of the characters, particularly Shikinami and Mari, because 3.0 would supposedly devote plenty of time to them. Apparently 3.0 doesn’t do that so I dunno.. It just would have been nice if Anno had made the characters worth caring about before throwing them into all these action scenes.

Oh and when people say stuff like “it’s got great action” To be honest I don't really agree. 2.0’s action scenes were awkwardly drawn out and fantastically overblown. I actually liked the relative simplicity of the action in the series. The tone was also all over the place. Throwing a character like Mari into the Zeruel fight only made it less engaging.

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Postby Xard » Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:06 pm

View Original PostXard wrote:
What have we told you about the reaction images?



it wasn't that big and now my post is ruined (:|

View Original PostCruel Thesis 2 wrote:I remember people saying that we shouldn’t criticize 2.0 for its shallow depiction of the characters, particularly Shikinami and Mari, because 3.0 would supposedly devote plenty of time to them. Apparently 3.0 doesn’t do that so I dunno.. It just would have been nice if Anno had made the characters worth caring about before throwing them into all these action scenes.


NME revolves around Shinji's oedipal struggle with Gendo which makes Rei the second most important character. Asuka and Mari aren't that important and Misato is no longer main character but major supporting one.

At the time before 3.0 we couldn't be so sure about this but now it's certain. I expect Mari and esp. Asuka play big role in Final but that doesn't make them take away main focus that is on Shinji exclusively.

NME's are trying to tell a story whereas second half of NGE was general dive into Anno's psyche using whole cast. This is why characterization is more "shallow" for most
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
Mugwump: Goddamn it, Xard! Take me in your arms, you magnificent sex god bastard!
And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
Eva Yojimbo: You really are the Otaku equivalent of a Catholic and Jew rolled up into one giant dakimakura of guilt.
Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby LordEvan88 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:26 pm

View Original PostCharsi wrote:
    - Where are they getting parts for so many Evangelions (possibly hinted at by "additional apocrypha" statement)? Are they just scrounging, cobbling together bits?


Before the big timeskip reveal, I actually really liked that Unit-02 was cobbled together. I found it plausible with NERV shut down and such serious damage done to her that they found whatever spare EVA bits they had laying around to get her up and running again. Now it just seems like they spent 14 years building a giant flying fortress and couldn't spring for a paint job. Seriously, Misato, perfect 21st birthday present for Asuka.

Its just wierd seeing Eva with all of these serious plot problems. It's had its flaws before but unless Anno has a magic 'it was all a dream' card lined up, so little of the movie makes sense and most of it has to do with the timeskip.
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Postby balofo » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:29 pm

You people take this WAY too seriously.
LOL

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Postby BiQ » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:44 pm

View Original Postbalofo wrote:You people take this WAY too seriously.


It comes with the "geeks" part of "evageeks".
The art of being grown up, the dirty little secret nobody lets on about, is that it's all about getting comfortable with acting the part, and reaching that point where you stop giving a fuck, and do stuff that needs to be done, because it just needs doing, and ain't nobody else going to do it for you. -Mr. Tines

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Postby xanderkh » Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:55 pm

View Original Postbalofo wrote:You people take this WAY too seriously.


And your figuring this out NOW? :toothy:
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

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Postby JoeD80 » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:18 am

View Original PostLordEvan88 wrote:Now it just seems like they spent 14 years building a giant flying fortress and couldn't spring for a paint job.

Who knows what other battles it's been in throughout the years. But I'm not sure what this refers to...Eva 02 looks fine to me.

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Postby Reichu » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:42 am

View Original PostJoeD80 wrote:Eva 02 looks fine to me.

Eva-02 was never fully repaired, in any traditional sense, from the battle damage she took in the 10th Angel fight. The missing parts of her head and the missing arm, for example, are robotic implants.
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」


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