Asuka's role in 3.0 & Beyond

[CJD]

When you first saw this did you seriously think Sakura was a young adult? I doubt anyone unspoiled would see this and think "the girl with the brown hair looks 20".

Bad example for two reasons:

First, it's the height. There's a reason when we say Asuka looks like an adult we usually clarify that it's a "short adult." Give the pilots a foot or two and they'd all, easily, pass for a fully matured individual. And, like I said, for the sake of making the analogy simpler I dropped the "short" qualifier.

Second, she's standing right next to the pilots who we already know are supposed to be 14. If I didn't know better I'd have thought she was a new pilot added in 3.0.

[Bagheera]

Did she do something for Shinji in the director's cut?

No, but knowing she felt that way changes the context of all of their earlier interactions. In the broadcast version she was clearly strutting and trying to prove herself, but with the DC edits in mind it looks more like she's attempting to flirt with Shinji. It just changes stuff.

As for the naked bit, i was not referring to complete nudity, but partial (towel scenes, stupidly short shorts, that swimsuit, DC with Kaji).

Sure. She's trying to project confidence, of course, but it only goes so far. That swimsuit's actually a good example, as it's pretty conservative for a bikini. If she were more of a sexual creature I'd expect a string bikini or even a thong, but instead she went about as conservative she could on that front. That's someone who's pretending, IMO, not someone who really feels it.

About the shorts, i know they are normal shorts to wear at home but don't forget that a guy (not of her family) lived with her.

True, but don't forget that post-2I Japan has no seasons. More importantly, it's hot. Really, really hot. I don't know how Misato manages to wear that crazy jacket, but Asuka's clearly of sounder mind on that front.

Makes me wonder what she would have done if Kaji had said "OK, I'm a total pedophile and I'm gonna do you right here in the open" after she flashed her bra at him in the DC... Would she back out, or would she just go with it?

She'd either panic and run like hell or she'd force herself to go through with it and seriously regret it later. And of course she'd never trust anyone again, because that right there's some serious hardcore betrayal on Kaji's part.

SPOILER: Show

When you first saw this did you seriously think Sakura was a young adult? I doubt anyone unspoiled would see this and think "the girl with the brown hair looks 20".

Given her pose I really wouldn't have an opinion on the matter. Looking at Asuka and even Mari, though, they don't look anywhere close to adults in that pic. They don't even look like short adults -- compare them to Maya or even Midori and the difference is like night and day, and if you look at someone like Sumire or Misato what you're suggesting is downright laughable.

(in brief: the girls are skinny to the point of being scrawny, and the fact that have largish breasts for their age doesn't change that. They need to fill out (a lot) before they can be taken seriously as adults.)

[A.T. Fish]

Bad example for two reasons:

First, it's the height. There's a reason when we say Asuka looks like an adult we usually clarify that it's a "short adult." Give the pilots a foot or two and they'd all, easily, pass for a fully matured individual. And, like I said, for the sake of making the analogy simpler I dropped the "short" qualifier.

Second, she's standing right next to the pilots who we already know are supposed to be 14. If I didn't know better I'd have thought she was a new pilot added in 3.0.

But height is a very important factor in determining the age of an animated character, in Evangelion the constrast of the adult characters and the non adult ones is clearly exposed by height difference, since there are limited ways to make an animated character look older than the other (other than adding some expression lines, beard, white hair and maybe some lipstick for the female characters). The whole "Asuka looks like a short adult" is not unanimous, I for one don't see it that way, she may not look like the average 14 year old but she can easily pass for 16 without any exaggeration, it's true that if she was stretched a bit she'd look older, but that can be said about tons of anime characters and in the end their height will be of great importance when defining their age. Evangelion followed a very clear pattern when portraying age difference through height up until Q, just now they gave us a girl who looks like one of the 14 year old pilots and is supposed to be 20, that was a break from the established norm and it's not unreasonable to say that Sakura doesn't look her age if we go by our previous references, even in universe, which is not something unrealistic since in real life people who don't look their age are not that uncommon. I get the whole "in universe they are not viewed this way" but it's unnatural to think that Asuka looks like a 14 year old and Sakura looks like a 20 year old to them when that difference was certainly not highlighted by the artists, they actually went the other way and decided to make them pretty similar, we just know one is much older because we were told so.

Edit:

Given her pose I really wouldn't have an opinion on the matter. Looking at Asuka and even Mari, though, they don't look anywhere close to adults in that pic. They don't even look like short adults -- compare them to Maya or even Midori and the difference is like night and day, and if you look at someone like Sumire or Misato what you're suggesting is downright laughable.

But I'm not suggesting that they look like adults, I'm suggesting that Sakura doesn't look her age. That's taking into consideration the fact that two people can look the same age even when they aren't, which is the case with Sakura and Asuka, if we go by real life standards they could both be anywhere from 15 to 20 years old, we can approach their age by comparison with other characters and such but at times we'll be surprised by the likes of two similar characters being separated by 7 or so years of age.

[Bagheera]

But I'm not suggesting that they look like adults, I'm suggesting that Sakura doesn't look her age.

That might be true, but it's nothing to do with Asuka's case. But anyway I actually do think Sakura looks quite a bit older than Asuka. I don't think she looks 20, but she doesn't look 14, either. I'd put her at around 16-17 based on the few pics we have. Height aside she's just not scrawny enough to be a 14-year-old, even by anime standards.

[CJD]

(in brief: the girls are skinny to the point of being scrawny, and the fact that have largish breasts for their age doesn't change that. They need to fill out (a lot) before they can be taken seriously as adults.)

That's part of getting taller, though. No one's saying you should just stretch vertically.

and it's not unreasonable to say that Sakura doesn't look her age if we go by our previous references, even in universe, which is not something unrealistic since in real life people who don't look their age are not that uncommon.

Even if we accept that, though, it doesn't reflect on Asuka. You make the assumption that Sakura can get into a sexual relationship (as in an adult male would be willing to date her). Who's to say that's the case? Maybe she has the same problem.

I get the whole "in universe they are not viewed this way" but it's unnatural to think that Asuka looks like a 14 year old and Sakura looks like a 20 year old to them when that difference was certainly not highlighted by the artists, they actually went the other way and decided to make them pretty similar, we just know one is much older because we were told so.

I suspect Sakura's height/look has less to do with a statement about the relationship viability of the pilots and more to do with the fact that it makes her more relatable to Shinji, and consequently the viewer who is supposed to be in the same predicament as Shinji while watching the movie.

Anyway, the thing that really strikes me in that image is that Mari looks 16, maybe 18, even with the height difference. She'd either have grown up to be a tall girl or not grown up much more at all.

[Merior]

No, but knowing she felt that way changes the context of all of their earlier interactions. In the broadcast version she was clearly strutting and trying to prove herself, but with the DC edits in mind it looks more like she's attempting to flirt with Shinji. It just changes stuff.

Yep, this is what i don't understand. I don't remember the DC adding new information about A/S relationship other than a jealousy/envy scene (ep. 22) and Asuka's mindf*ck in the same episode (i swear i don't know how to call it other than that). I personally don't see anything in the mindf*ck that can be used to prove that she alrdy had feelings for him/was flirting with him in episode 10 (all other Asuka scenes didn't have anything to do with Shinji/except one in ep.24).
If nothing else, i usually see Shinji rescuing Asuka in episode 10 as the moment in which she begins to develop real romantic feelings for him.

Even if we were to agree that Asuka alrdy had feelings for Shinji, in the swimming pool scene, i wouldn't be able to see what she does as a way to flirt with him (on purpose), because it would involve Asuka accepting her romantic feelings for Shinji...
If you didn't mean she was flirting on purpose, but it was something subconscious, then i guess that's a possibility(as in, she wouldn't have made the same joke if Toji was in Shinji's place),it wouldn't make what i said in the previous post wrong though.
If that's the case we could even draw a comparison with the kiss scene in ep. 14.

The only thing DC did for me was making certain details clearer about Asuka, but it didn't change my view on her.
If you could bring an example of what you meant it'd be cool (i mean it)/no need to, if you agree with the second paragraph.

Sure. She's trying to project confidence, of course, but it only goes so far. That swimsuit's actually a good example, as it's pretty conservative for a bikini. If she were more of a sexual creature I'd expect a string bikini or even a thong, but instead she went about as conservative she could on that front. That's someone who's pretending, IMO, not someone who really feels it.

Kaji comments that it's too much for a girl.
Never said she's a sexual creature lol. Simply that she doesn't have too many problems exposing herself a bit, as opposed to certain other girls of her age (nothing extreme).
She does it to project confidence/to prove her maturity to other people (when it comes to clothes) i agree with you on that. But it doesn't change the fact that she ends up getting subconsciously influenced in everyday life behaviour/"dressing habits".
She's ok with buying a bikini and showing off her body to "project confidence"? Then it probably won't even be a problem to go out of the bathroom wearing only a towel, not to project confidence on purpose, but because exposing herself a bit isn't a problem anymore and it's subconsciously linked to a "positive effect". feeling a bit stupid atm in reading so much into a fictional character's personality.
Quoting a part of our previous discussion that is also true in this case.

Bagheera wrote:
More accurate to say she pretends to be extroverted IMO. It's a coping mechanism -- she's actually lonely and afraid and terribly provincial, but she acts extroverted because she hopes it will make people take her seriously. She's basically trying to fake it 'til she makes it.

Yep, perfectly agree there. From my pov even if you pretend to be something you aren't (or, as you say, a side of your personality is the result of a coping mechanism), it doesn't mean that's not part of who you are. We know that her overconfidence/big ego is a way to mask insecurities/fear but we can't say she isn't overconfident just because of that, same could be said for her extroverted personality (it's probably what you meant).

I think this is one of those cases in which different ways to express a similar opinion lead to misunderstandings.

[Bagheera]

Yep, this is what i don't understand. I don't remember the DC adding new information about A/S relationship other than a jealousy/envy scene (ep. 22) and Asuka's mindf*ck in the same episode (i swear i don't know how to call it other than that). I personally don't see anything in the mindf*ck that can be used to prove that she alrdy had feelings for him/was flirting with him in episode 10 (all other Asuka scenes didn't have anything to do with Shinji/except one in ep.24).

It was two scenes in the mindrape sequence: the aftermath of the "Walls of Jericho" scene in episode 9 and a shot of Shinji behind Kaji in episode 15. Neither of those were in the broadcast version of the episode, and we don't see them in the original episodes in any event. These, plus the DC scene in 22 (where she sees Rei and Shinji and says "so I lost") and the material in EoE, are the source of the Shinji/Asuka relationship. It simply didn't exist in the broadcast version.

Even if we were to agree that Asuka alrdy had feelings for Shinji, in the swimming pool scene, i wouldn't be able to see what she does as a way to flirt with him (on purpose), because it would involve Asuka accepting her romantic feelings for Shinji...

No one's saying she did it consciously. It's just that the subtext for her behavior is different when you see the scene raw and when you see it in the context of her feelings of rejection after the Walls of Jericho bit.

Kaji comments that it's too much for a girl.

He's her guardian, and he's actually responsible and shit. He's morally obligated to say anything is too much for a girl.

[Merior]

It was two scenes in the mindrape sequence: the aftermath of the "Walls of Jericho" scene in episode 9 and a shot of Shinji behind Kaji in episode 15. Neither of those were in the broadcast version of the episode, and we don't see them in the original episodes in any event. These, plus the DC scene in 22 (where she sees Rei and Shinji and says "so I lost") and the material in EoE, are the source of the Shinji/Asuka relationship. It simply didn't exist in the broadcast version.

Gaaah she never means that. She makes a comment about the way in which Shinji seems to act as if nothing has happened (after spending a month inside the eva).Also, she says"after all i lost to the likes of you", because Shinji beat her in synchro rates and won the battle that she lost in ep.19 (u can't really believe Asuka is saying she's romantically lost to Rei , Shinji barely spends time with her/this is not the manga lol). That remark was all about Shinji.

Asuka obviously loves him and the Kaji/Shinji scene is, as you say, proof of that (never said that wasn't the case/never doubted that she loved him nor that she's jealous/possessive even though she's the first one not to admit her feelings).

No one's saying she did it consciously. It's just that the subtext for her behavior is different when you see the scene raw and when you see it in the context of her feelings of rejection after the Walls of Jericho bit.

Ye, i had a feeling about it. The wall of jericho DC bit is a "victim" of bad timing (as in, it is only partially related to Shinji). She wasn't expecting Shinji to check on her (in that particular situation) but the scene simply expresses her loneliness and her need to have someone that can comfort her (and that Shinji can't be that person due to his personality). No feelings of rejection there, only depression/sadness.


That scene went like this:
Asuka: "Oh apparently Misato won't come home tonight, it'll be only me and you".
Takes the futon, brings it in Misato's room, closes the door.
Opens the door after a couple of seconds.
Asuka:"This is unbreakable wall of jericho, never to fall..."
Shuts the door.
DC addition:Spends the rest of the night depressed (life in a new place/defeated by an angel/forced to cooperate/period pains, i invented the last one but it may even be true).End of DC
Wakes up, goes to the toilet, then subconsciously falls next to Shinji, representing her need to have someone next to her (Shinji is only a victim of the circumstances in ep.9). Well, not really a victim considering what he was about to do...
After 1 week she wasn't in love with him, i'm pretty sure about it.

Checked the wiki and, needless to say, i partially disagree with their take on their relationship (Harem MC mentality behind it...).

[A.T. Fish]

Even if we accept that, though, it doesn't reflect on Asuka. You make the assumption that Sakura can get into a sexual relationship (as in an adult male would be willing to date her). Who's to say that's the case? Maybe she has the same problem.

I don't see any absurdity in accepting that Sakura can have a sexual relationship if she so chooses, she has the appropriate age, how she looks is no impairment to that. In fact, the difference between a 15 year old and an 18 year old is not that big, sometimes there isn't even a difference (as is the case with Asuka and Sakura) and sometimes it's the other way around (a 15 year old girl can look older than an 18 year old one), what separates one from the other is emotional maturity, that is the point the age of consent tries to address because in reality sexual maturity normally happens before the age of 18 (biologically speaking) and usually emotional maturity doesn't come with it, so that's why the separation is important. Asuka is, as far as nature is concerned, ready to engage in coitus, and as far as social rules are concerned she is too, since she is no teenager anymore, she is a mature woman, psychologically speaking.

I suspect Sakura's height/look has less to do with a statement about the relationship viability of the pilots and more to do with the fact that it makes her more relatable to Shinji, and consequently the viewer who is supposed to be in the same predicament as Shinji while watching the movie.

I have no idea why they chose to break their pattern and make Sakura look younger than she is but I never suggested it was a "statement about the relationship viability of the pilots".

[Bagheera]

Gaaah she never means that. She makes a comment about the way in which Shinji seems to act as if nothing has happened (after spending a month inside the eva).Also, she says"after all i lost to the likes of you", because Shinji beat her in synchro rates and won the battle that she lost in ep.19 (u can't really believe Asuka is saying she's romantically lost to Rei , Shinji barely spends time with her/this is not the manga lol). That remark was all about Shinji.

Ah, no. She was watching the two of them together. Her remark was about them, not Eva.

Asuka obviously loves him and the Kaji/Shinji scene is, as you say, proof of that (never said that wasn't the case/never doubted that she loved him nor that she's jealous/possessive even though she's the first one not to admit her feelings).

I wouldn't say she loves him, not at all. But per the DC material she did want his attention, and maybe some companionship. In the broadcast version that was never an issue.

Ye, i had a feeling about it. The wall of jericho DC bit is a "victim" of bad timing (as in, it is only partially related to Shinji). She wasn't expecting Shinji to check on her (in that particular situation) but the scene simply expresses her loneliness and her need to have someone that can comfort her (and that Shinji can't be that person due to his personality). No feelings of rejection there, only depression/sadness.

"You won't even hold me!" That's feelings of rejection dude, pure and simple.

After 1 week she wasn't in love with him, i'm pretty sure about it.

No one's saying she was in love with him. You keep shifting between extremes here, please stop it.

A.T. Fish: I still don't get what you're trying to accomplish here. The original argument was that Asuka would have trouble romantically because she's stuck in the body of a 14-year-old. If you look at the character designs she does indeed look like a 14-year-old, so comparing her to other characters doesn't make much sense (at best you can show they look young for their age, but so what? That doesn't change anything about the original argument, so why bring it up?).

[A.T. Fish]

I still don't get what you're trying to accomplish here. The original argument was that Asuka would have trouble romantically because she's stuck in the body of a 14-year-old. If you look at the character designs she does indeed look like a 14-year-old, so comparing her to other characters doesn't make much sense (at best you can show they look young for their age, but so what? That doesn't change anything about the original argument, so why bring it up?).

Well, I have no problem seeing Sakura engaged in a relationship that involves sex (no, I don't think she is, but she could be) and she looks just as young as Asuka does and is even younger than Asuka psychologically, so I assume Asuka too could be in a sexual relationship. As far as there being someone willing to do it, well, it would be creepy but so is seeing 50 year old guys with 20 year old girls, and that kind of thing exists. So, why couldn't she be dating some guy in his early twenties? I can see it happening.

[Bagheera]

she looks just as young as Asuka does

You keep saying this but repetition doesn't make it true.

Who's claiming Asuka can't get a date, anyway? I recall the argument being "she'd have problems" not "she's completely without hope."

[A.T. Fish]

You keep saying this but repetition doesn't make it true.

I'm not repeating it incessantly in the hopes that you'll start believing me, I gave my reasons as to why I think that a few posts back, that is open to debate but I don't believe my position is unreasonable or absurd, and apart from the "we're supposed to view it differently" argument no other reason to the contrary has been given.

Who's claiming Asuka can't get a date, anyway? I recall the argument being "she'd have problems" not "she's completely without hope."

But I don't believe she'd have problems finding a guy if she wanted.

[Merior]

Ah, no. She was watching the two of them together. Her remark was about them, not Eva.

Yes, right from the script.

Asuka: He spent an entire month dissolved inside Eva and he's
already back to his old ways.
After all, I lost... and to the likes of you.

In the same episode she also takes part in the usual synchro-tests, in which she loses 8 points (before those lines). Shinji, more likely than not (i don't remember the synchro screen), proved once again to be superior, even though he spent a month dissolved in the Eva. All the more reason to feel hostility toward him and feeling like she lost. As i said, from my pov that remark is about Shinji and their "rivalry" (that isn't even a real rivalry), with some jealousy mixed in.
To each his own i guess, to me it wouldn't make any sense if that line was referred to Rei.
EDIT: not only that, but in the same episode they also were thinking about prioritizing repairs for 00 over 02 (don't even know whether Asuka was aware of that or not...).

I wouldn't say she loves him, not at all. But per the DC material she did want his attention, and maybe some companionship. In the broadcast version that was never an issue.

Didn't need the DC material to guess that tbh (my issue was only a stupid one, about the time in which she begins to look for his attention specifically/which is not the case in ep.9 wall of jericho). We may be tricked into believing that, because of the timing of the scene in ep.22DC but it is not the case (tried to explain it in the previous post).

"You won't even hold me!" That's feelings of rejection dude, pure and simple.

Ye, that line appears with the kiss "flashback", after wall of jericho, which is what we were discussing about.
Was she feeling rejected in ep.9? No
Was she feeling rejected after the kiss in ep.14? Among other feelings, she probably was.

No one's saying she was in love with him. You keep shifting between extremes here, please stop it.

When i talked about love it was simply to quickly get the point across without having to say:she's subconsciously looking for attention and so on... Don't nitpick pls, cause i'm pretty sure you know i didn't mean that.

Anyway, if you want to answer one last time then i think we can stop.
It's turned into a discussion about pretty much nothing.

[bladerj]

This thread is about SHIKINAMI,take your sohryu bias to the proper forum.

[CJD]

But I don't believe she'd have problems finding a guy if she wanted.

If you don't believe someone in the body of a 14 year old would have problems finding a date with someone 20+ I'm not sure what to tell you.

[AlphaGamma]

"You won't even hold me!" That's feelings of rejection dude, pure and simple.

I think i know what he was trying to point out.
He doesn't see the breast joke as Asuka wanting, solely, to be noticed by Shinji. He sees it as her, starting to be interested in Shinji, giving him a possibility to prove her to be mature and interesting. Eventually allowing Asuka and her ego to accept what she feels for him.
Following this analysis, the mindrape sequence becomes a scene in which Asuka denies her own feelings for him, bringing up his lack of maturity and his passivity as an excuse.
"You won't even hold me!", during the kissing scene, being the symbol of that.
Her rejection doesn't come from lack of attention, per se, but from the fact that Shini isn't man enough to be reliable or interesting, making Asuka unable to accept that she likes him. Yet she does.
Why? Because she's a girl who needs to be appreciated and Shinji finds himself in the right place, in the right time...

First post, Btw. Registered mainly because i wanted to take part in this discussion.
Sorry for going a bit offtopic.

If you don't believe someone in the body of a 14 year old would have problems finding a date with someone 20+ I'm not sure what to tell you.

If i remember it right, she had a date with a university student in NGE.
We'll probably never know what happened between 2.0 and 3.0.

[A.T. Fish]

If you don't believe someone in the body of a 14 year old would have problems finding a date with someone 20+ I'm not sure what to tell you.

You are too fixated on the body thing, I doubt anyone still thinks of her as a teenager anymore, with this mindset the body is a non issue, with everyone knowing that she's really not as young as she looks there is no taboo.

[CJD]

You are too fixated on the body thing, I doubt anyone still thinks of her as a teenager anymore, with this mindset the body is a non issue, with everyone knowing that she's really not as young as she looks there is no taboo.

You're overestimating society. People aren't going to see someone dating a 28 year old who just happens to look 14, they're going to see someone dating a person who looks 14 and just happens to be 28, and that person is going to be looked upon as a pervert. You may not be fixated on the body, and I may not be fixated on the body (when judging her, I am for the sake of this conversation), and intelligent people may not be fixated on the body, but people will be fixated on the body, because people tend to be stupid when it comes to these matters.

[A.T. Fish]

Then we've reached an impass, because I don't think society as a whole will see much problem in that (provided they know her real age), maybe some people will, but I don't see this keeping the guys from dating her. Let's just agree to disagree.