Dummy Plug System?

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Dummy Plug System?

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Postby tabura » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:17 am

I don't really post on this forum (or any forum) because I'm an idiot. But I wanted to ask something, and I'm hoping that you guys can answer this question for me
What is the dummy plug system?

I had always assumed that the dummy plug system was (and please don't tear me apart if this doesn't make any sense) an entry plug with a Rei clone in it. When I saw the scene in which the tank Reis are destroyed, I had thought that the dummy plug plant manufactured Reis to go into the dummy plugs, and not that the plant 'imprinted' the plugs with Rei's personality (which is what most of my friends assumed when they saw the scene).
I don't fully understand why more than one Rei is needed to 'imprint' an entry plug with her personality...then again I'm not sure if there is more than one dummy plug mentioned in the show, meaning that if my theory was correct, there would be no point to having more than one Rei at all in the plant.
If I remember correctly, the dummy plug system in the anime seems to be a differently coloured version of an actual entry plug. Why would an entire plug be required to store a person's personality?
Anyway, if I'm asking stupid questions that have already been answered, I would appreciate a reply to this post redirecting me to where I could find an explaination. This has been bugging me for some time.
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Re: Dummy Plug System?

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Postby Stryker » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:25 am

Well, it kind of is, but the physical clone isn't actually in there. Rather, it is data from Rei's personality (or Kaworu's, but that's a different story), and is designed to trick the Eva that it is actually being piloted by a human.

More on it here.

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Postby tabura » Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:02 am

Thanks. I still haven't figured out how to use the search function on the wiki.
The proof is in the pudding I guess, since Rei 1-3 are either dead or living, and the tank reis are destroyed starting at #4. But it still doesn't make any sense to me. Raises more questions in fact.

Why use an entire entry plug sized device to store a personality? Is it reuiqred as part of the process to 'trick' the eva? If so, wouldn't the fact that there is another plug already inside affect the 'tricking' process?

Is it possible that the Reis in the tank and the Reis 1 through 3 are different? The way that the tank Reis laugh and the expressions on their faces doesn't really match up with Rei #3, which (to me) the wiki suggests also came from the tank. also the fact that, if all the Reis were bred in the same tank (and in the same fashion) the fact that Rei #1 was pulled out as a younger version of Rei doesn't really match up with the fact that Rei #2 and #3 are the same age.

And the easy explanation of "maybe they changed the machine" or "maybe the Reis were conditioned after being bred in the tanks" doesn't really sit well with me.
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Postby Stryker » Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:00 pm

View Original Posttabura wrote:Why use an entire entry plug sized device to store a personality?

The Evangelion was designed so that it wouldn't operate without it (considering how it is technically a living being capable of mass destruction, you would want it in chains, right?)

Is it required as part of the process to 'trick' the eva?
If so, wouldn't the fact that there is another plug already inside affect the 'tricking' process?


Yes, you are right. But the tricking process isn't the fact that there is a plug, its more that there is a being in the plug.

Is it possible that the Reis in the tank and the Reis 1 through 3 are different?


Physically, no. Mentally, the each Rei would've lost a bit of it's memory every time it has been revived, so yes. But the personality wouldn't have changed, so psychologically, no.

The way that the tank Reis laugh and the expressions on their faces doesn't really match up with Rei #3, which (to me) the wiki suggests also came from the tank. also the fact that, if all the Reis were bred in the same tank (and in the same fashion) the fact that Rei #1 was pulled out as a younger version of Rei doesn't really match up with the fact that Rei #2 and #3 are the same age.


I think those expressions were made just to creep out the viewer. There is no real story-driven reason why they do that (to my knowledge). And I don't believe Rei #1 was actually bred in the tank. My reason as to why Rei #1 appears younger is that. . . technically, clones do grow. It's just that, in this case, they probably grow at an accelerated rate (Rei #2 being 4, when her physical appearance is 14). Therefore, Rei #1 could've been. . . six months old, for example. Why the Rei's in the tanks are the same age as 14 could be that they are actually growing as well, as to be able to, in a chance that Rei would be falling apart, give her replacement parts.


Wow, it's been a while since I've made a post that wasn't composed of crap.

Or is this composed of crap? I will never know. . .
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Postby tabura » Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:35 pm

Please forgive me; I don't know how to quote.

Your first point kind of missed what I was asking, probably because of the way my questions are worded. I meant to ask why the plug is so huge, if it doesn't contain a human being like the others.

When you say that the tank Reis' laughter has no 'story based reason', you are addressing exactly what I wanted (and hoped) to convey with this topic.
The fact that there are so many of these little discrepancies makes it hard for me to accpet the generally accepted idea that the plug does not have a clone in it.

There is no story based reason when looking at it already having accepted the theory that there is no clone inside the plug.
But from my perspective, it makes a lot more sense. The tank Reis are different from the 'real world' Reis in that they are manufactured in the plant solely for the purpose of fillling up these dummy plugs.

We (and I think most people) agree that the only purpose of the dummy plug is to simulate the presence of a pilot. When EVA shogoki is controlled by the dummy plug, I find it behaves similarly to how it behaves in Berserk mode (brutal, animalistic attacks, tearing apart angel, etc.) I believe that (according to my theory, of course) the Rei clone inside the plug has no role in controlling the EVA.

This means that the Rei inside the dummy can be different than the others oustide. We also know that the tank Reis are stored in LCL, and I assume that Ritsuko doesn't feed them with a shaker full of supplements like tropical fish. These Reis could (in this theory) survive in the dummy plugs for an indefinite amount of time.

Besides, what better way of tricking an EVA into thinking that there is a being in the plug than actually putting a being in the plug?
Of course, this is all pointless BS and conjecture on my part.
The point is, I find it hard to accept what everyone else seems to be telling me. For some reason, I find it easier to believe that there would be a Rei clone floating around in that tube, but I guess I'm just stupid.
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Postby Stryker » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:45 pm

View Original Posttabura wrote:Please forgive me; I don't know how to quote.


At the top-right corner of every post, there is a "quote" button. Pressing that will allow you to quote a post. You can also cut and paste the code to specify individual points.

View Original Posttabura wrote:Your first point kind of missed what I was asking, probably because of the way my questions are worded. I meant to ask why the plug is so huge, if it doesn't contain a human being like the others.


Look at it this way: It would be futile to try to use a key that's too small for the keyhole/not the same shape. It would also be a hassle to redesign the entire lock in the first place. They probably also intended that those plugs were to fit humans, and the reason why they didn't change them was that it would've been too expensive (In the series there was awful a lot of talk about budget problems).

This may also help. The way an Eva detects a person is through reading thought patterns. By mimicking thought patterns caused by the code in the Dummy Plug System, an Eva may operate without someone, or something, in the seat.
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Postby tabura » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:54 pm

View Original PostStryker wrote:It would be futile to try to use a key that's too small for the keyhole/not the same shape. It would also be a hassle to redesign the entire lock in the first place.


But...is it futile to make a key identical to the one already stuck in the lock? Is it not a hassle to design a system that requires another 'plug socket'? This is all just conjecture of course, I'm assuming that since the entry plug is already in the EVA, the dummy would be placed somewhere else.
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Thaw, and resolve itself into a dew"

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Postby Monk Ed » Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:31 pm

Wait, that analysis page on that wiki is jumping to some serious conclusions. How does the fact that all the Rei clones were in the Reiquarium in ep23 prove in any way shape or form that those same clones were not in dummy plugs in the past? I always assumed -- with never a second of doubt -- that the Reiquarium is where the clones are kept for physical maintenance when not in the dummy plugs. By episode 23 there's no reason for any dummy plug to have been installed in any Eva (especially since Eva-01 developed a habit of rejecting them), and that's assuming that dummy plugs are not simply always removed after every mission anyway for maintenance. It also makes sense that even if that were not the case, Ritsuko would have made sure to put all the Reis in one place before destroying them.

The fact that Gendo describes the dummy system as having been destroyed with the death of the clones is pretty much the proof in itself that the clones (called the cores of the dummy plugs) were previously in the dummy plugs but were instead all in the Reiquarium at the time Ritsuko destroyed them.
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Postby tabura » Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:44 pm

Well, the prevailing theory is that there is no clone, and (I guess) that the dummy plugs are 'storage units' for thought patterns. Why the Reiquarium (as you so eloquently put it) would have to constantly have Reis in them in order for the Dummy plug system to work is beyond me, and I think that is also the case with most others.
Another issue that I think some people, including myself, have overlooked is that the dummy plug system is explicitly stated (at least in 2.0, not sure about the original series) to have the capability of creating an AT field.
Are souls and thought patterns the same thing in terms of NGE?
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Postby thewayneiac » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:34 pm

tabura wrote:Why use an entire entry plug sized device to store a personality?

Is it possible that the Reis in the tank and the Reis 1 through 3 are different? The way that the tank Reis laugh and the expressions on their faces doesn't really match up with Rei #3, which (to me) the wiki suggests also came from the tank.



The plugs neeed to be the same size and shape because the Entry Plug fills a gap in the Eva's spinal collumn. Without the whole thing, an Eva is essentially paralyzed from the neck down. (At least as far as the pilot's getting it to move. Remember how shocked Ritsuko was in Ep. 01 when Unit 01 swatted away those falling lights with no plug inserted.)

The tank Reis have no souls at all, let alone Rei's soul; they can't be expected to act like Rei. That explains their behavior. Rei 3 doubtless acted just like them before she got the Rei soul.

Monk Ed wrote:The fact that Gendo describes the dummy system as having been destroyed with the death of the clones is pretty much the proof in itself that the clones (called the cores of the dummy plugs) were previously in the dummy plugs but were instead all in the Reiquarium at the time Ritsuko destroyed them.


You are forgetting that the Dummy Plugs are just a component of the Dummy System; they are not the Dummy System itself. As we see in Ep. 18, the Dummy System can also take over from an actual pilot when a regular Entry Plug is inserted. How does depriving the Dummy Plugs of Rei clones destroy the entire system?

Also Ritsuko calls them the "core of the Dummy System", not the "Core of the Dummy Plugs". They have some wider purpose rather than just sitting in the plugs.

tabura wrote:Besides, what better way of tricking an EVA into thinking that there is a being in the plug than actually putting a being in the plug?

Are souls and thought patterns the same thing in terms of NGE?


Then in what way is it being tricked?

No, souls are not the same things as thought patterns. The Magi have Naoko's thought patterns, not her soul. The Dummy Plugs were probably created with the same technology. The process of transfering souls is completely different.
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Postby Monk Ed » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:50 pm

View Original Postthewayneiac wrote:You are forgetting that the Dummy Plugs are just a component of the Dummy System; they are not the Dummy System itself. As we see in Ep. 18, the Dummy System can also take over from an actual pilot when a regular Entry Plug is inserted. How does depriving the Dummy Plugs of Rei clones destroy the entire system?

Episode 24 wrote:IKARI:
Why did you destroy the dummy system?

Regardless, not every part of something has to be destroyed in order for the whole of it to be described as destroyed. If somebody shot a big gaping hole through my computer I'd still be going OH MY GOD YOU DESTROYED MY COMPUTER even if the cards, RAM, hard drive, monitor, and input devices all survived.

Also Ritsuko calls them the "core of the Dummy System", not the "Core of the Dummy Plugs". They have some wider purpose rather than just sitting in the plugs.

So? The only question I'm concerned with in this topic is if they do in fact sit in the plugs when in use.
Last edited by Monk Ed on Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby tabura » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:08 pm

View Original Postthewayneiac wrote:The plugs neeed to be the same size and shape because the Entry Plug fills a gap in the Eva's spinal collumn.


Then where does the original plug go when the dummy system is 'activated'?
Also, why is Unit 04 still moving when, in both the show and the rebuild, the entry plug can be clearly seen sticking out of the EVA's back? Unit 00 also continues moving after Rei has been ejected, although in that scene, most of the movement seems to be the upper body.

View Original Postthewayneiac wrote:Then in what way is it being tricked?


Because Shinji isn't in control. They want the EVA to move, and need a pilot. When Shinji refuses to attack 04, they switch to the dummy plug. The EVA believes that there is a pilot in control of it when there isn't.

View Original Postthewayneiac wrote:No, souls are not the same things as thought patterns. The Magi have Naoko's thought patterns, not her soul. The Dummy Plugs were probably created with the same technology.


Then how do the Rei 'thought patterns' generate AT fields? I thought that you needed a soul to do that.
However, you bring up a great point that I have never heard before, maybe without realizing.
You say that the magi contain Naoko's thought patterns and that the technology may be similar to that of the dummy plugs, keeping to the generally accepted theory that there are no clones in the actual things.
I have noted before (and I can't seem to be able to use bbcode anymore, so no pics-sorry) that the mechanism above the single model Reiquarium and the mechanism embedded inside the bridge where magi is stored is similar. Perhaps this is evidence to suggest that thought patterns are in fact what drives the dummy plug and not a Rei clone inside.

Furthermore, the 'dummy plug' I saw in rebuild is actually the plug that Shinji gets into. (I'm pretty sure you can see the arms and screen that lift up to cover his face during the battle in the tube when Misato is watching it being installed) So I guess everything that I said before about extra plugs and plug sockets is completely incorrect.

I think I am convinced. That being said, some part of me still feels that it would be more appropriate story wise for clones to be in the plugs. This, in my opinion, would correspond with the way that Gendo (and please feel free to tear me apart for saying this) tends to use people (Naoko, Ritsuko, Yui, Rei). I would really be happy to see a scene in Q or something where a dummy plug is cracked open an someone finds a Rei clone inside.

EDIT: I have used bbcode before, but for some reason, nothing is working. Please excuse my idiocy.
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Postby Ornette » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:31 pm

View Original Posttabura wrote:Then where does the original plug go when the dummy system is 'activated'?
Also, why is Unit 04 still moving when, in both the show and the rebuild, the entry plug can be clearly seen sticking out of the EVA's back? Unit 00 also continues moving after Rei has been ejected, although in that scene, most of the movement seems to be the upper body.

Those instances the pilot isn't in control. The point of the dummy plug is so that the dummy system can control the Eva, as if it were the pilot.

Then how do the Rei 'thought patterns' generate AT fields? I thought that you needed a soul to do that.

The prevailing theory is that the AT Field generated by an Eva isn't that of a pilot, but of the resident soul in the Eva itself.

EDIT: I have used bbcode before, but for some reason, nothing is working. Please excuse my idiocy.

You need to uncheck the "Disable BBCode in this post" when you make posts, or set "Always allow BBCode" to "Yes" in your profile.

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Postby tabura » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:33 pm

Thanks! Hopefully I don't see the brackets.

EDIT: SUCCESS
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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:40 am

For those who want to see some of the previous discussions on the matter, look here and here.
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Postby thewayneiac » Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:23 am

View Original PostMonk Ed wrote:Regardless, not every part of something has to be destroyed in order for the whole of it to be described as destroyed. If somebody shot a big gaping hole through my computer I'd still be going OH MY GOD YOU DESTROYED MY COMPUTER even if the cards, RAM, hard drive, monitor, and input devices all survived.


My point was that if the only problem is that there are no more Reis to put into the Dummy Plugs, what's to keep them from just having the Dummy System take over from a real pilot again, as in Ep. 18? If destroying the Reis did something to keep even that from working, they must play some role in the overall Dummy System, not just the Dummy Plugs. There was no Rei clone in the plug with Shinji in Ep. 18.

tabura wrote:Then where does the original plug go when the dummy system is 'activated'?


Nowhere. Shinji was in his normal Entry Plug. There was no Dummy Plug inserted. The Dummy System can work with a Dummy Plug, or it can take over from a real pilot in a regular Entry Plug. The Dummy System is in the Eva's software, not in the plug.
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Postby tabura » Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:41 am

Yeah I just realized how stupid I was being.
In the scene I was thinking of in 2.0 and in NGE, although the installation of the dummy plug system requires a different entry plug, there is no additional one inserted like I had thought. I could clearly see the screen and arms that move up to cover Shinji's face when the dummy systm is activated.
And thanks for those links! I'm punching myself in the face for never noticing the Drive B lighting up when the system is activated.
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Postby Monk Ed » Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:07 pm

View Original Postthewayneiac wrote:There was no Dummy Plug inserted.

Ep18 wrote:IKARI:
Correct. Switch the control circuit to the dummy plug.

Ep18 wrote:IBUKI:
This is the power of the dummy plug?

A dummy plug was in control, one way or another.

Either a dummy plug was on board as part of Shinji's entry plug (like an attachment plugged in somewhere, containing a Rei clone in the fetal position; the entry plug is plenty larger than just its cockpit), or they had a radio connection to a dummy plug kept back at base. And if the latter, then there's no reason to suppose that the dummy plugs in the first place are controlled via some wireless connection to the Rei clones in the tank, because then Gendo would have said to switch the control circuit over to the dummy system. I also really doubt that the dummy plug is just some wireless receiver for the Eva, because Maya talks about the dummy plug in very singular terms there, as if the dummy plug itself contains all that is necessary for it to be something potent. That'd be like witnessing a marvel of the internet for the first time and saying "This is the power of a D-Link access point?".

The alternatives don't make any sense to me. If the dummy system is no more than a program, then the destruction of the Rei clones should not have "destroyed the dummy system" as Gendo said. And if the dummy plug is just some conduit connecting the Rei clones to the Eva via some wireless or magical connection, then there'd be no reason to "upload" Rei's personal data onto the plug as Ritsuko describes in ep17, and more than that, Maya would not have said "This is the power of the dummy plug" if the plug itself was no more than a conduit for the dummy system.

EDIT:

I read one of those previous topics. I am utterly confused by how Anonymous_Evafan compiled all that information and then took it exactly the opposite way that I did just now when looking at it. He seems to take it as the nail in the coffin against the clone-in-the-plug interpretation because Ritsuko keeps saying "dummy system" instead of "dummy plug". But then as Ornette suggests later in that topic, it's possible that the dummy system is what's in each dummy plug in order for it to be considered a dummy plug.

Consider the dialogue in ep23. When Ritsuko describes the Rei clones to Misato and Shinji, she calls them the 'part' that 'becomes' the core of the dummy system. Calling them a 'part' makes one think of them being an actual physical part that is inserted into a dummy system on an entry/dummy plug, and the verbiage 'becomes' implies that that is where they are destined to go but they are not actively in use at the time of speaking, the same way "this is the boy who becomes a dragon" is describing a boy who regularly becomes a dragon but is currently not a dragon.

As for the optical disk, that's probably what Rei's personal data is on. Her personal data has to be uploaded to the plug separately, as Ritsuko says in ep17. The Rei clones installed in the dummy plugs probably run that data like a processor core -- the clones otherwise seem pretty blank on their own.
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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:45 pm

Monk Ed: Ritsuko's oft-cited remote seems to indicate that all clones are present in the tank -- that's how she can destroy them all at once. If Rei clones were installed into a plug once, that would be one thing, but if they have to be moved back and forth between the DP plant (...in Terminal Dogma, a long way from the Cages) and the Rei-00 dummy plug / the Eva-01 and -02 entry plugs, it makes ya wonder... Isn't there a better way?

And, indeed, there is! As much as you were busting on the notion of a wireless Eva / pilot connection ("magical", and such), the show quietly flashed that Chekov's gun in episode 13.

Monk Ed wrote:Maya talks about the dummy plug in very singular terms there

Japanese does have a habit of not specifying things like quantity in most contexts, so translations have to make assumptions.
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Postby Monk Ed » Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:39 pm

EDIT: I see that Reichu edited. So I edited this too.

View Original PostReichu wrote:Monk Ed: Ritsuko's oft-cited remote seems to indicate that all clones are present in the tank -- that's how she can destroy them all at once. If Rei clones were installed into a plug once, that would be one thing, but if they have to be moved back and forth between the DP plant (...in Terminal Dogma, a long way from the Cages) and the Rei-00 dummy plug / the Eva-01 and -02 entry plugs, it makes ya wonder... Isn't there a better way?

'Maintenance' need not imply that they get shipped back and forth before and after every Eva mission. Maybe they spend a week in the plug at a time, coming out for only a few hours for maintenance in the plant.

And, indeed, there is! As much as you were busting on the notion of a wireless Eva / pilot connection ("magical", and such), the show quietly flashed that Chekov's gun in episode 13.

I used the term "magical" because that is the exact word that one of the no-clone proponents used to describe the connection, however it appears that it was in one of those linked topics and not this one. I was not at all using it as a derogatory term; where I can, I prefer to use the exact language that people I'm trying to convince use so as to erase any doubt that I'm referring to the same thing.

As for episode 13, that's exactly what hit me when I reread the script then briefly reviewed the episode after you suggested it, because right after that episode is when they do another test which is for the purpose of determining the viability of the dummy system.

I still have reservations, though. Why load Rei's personal data onto the dummy plug instead of keeping it with the clones? Why describe the Eva's actions as "the power of the dummy plug" if the plug is just an access point for the dummy system? Why describe the Rei clones as "the part that becomes the core of the dummy system" instead of saying that they are the core of the dummy system?

Japanese does have a habit of not specifying things like quantity in most contexts, so translations have to make assumptions.

I'm not talking about singular as in non-plural, I meant as in self-contained.
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