Human "Core" = Brain?

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Human "Core" = Brain?

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Postby Guilt & Innocence » Sat Dec 24, 2011 8:49 pm

Just a small theory I came up with, not sure if anyone else suggested it:


As we all know, Lilith's fruit/core is called the fruit of knowledge. Our brain is where our intelligence, our consciousness, and arguably our soul resides. Could the brain be the "Core" of a human?
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Postby Azathoth » Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:10 pm

It's debatable whether humans have or need cores, really. The angelic soul is released from the body when the core is critically damaged, but the human soul only seems to be released from the body when the AT field is forcibly negated by Lilith/Adam/whoever has anti-AT-field capabilities. So I would say that the human body is its own core, or that humans don't have a core-localized soul in the same sense that other angels do.
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Postby bobbyfischer's ghost » Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:37 pm

In the Eva universe the body itself seems to be the center of all things.
The mind is just a small section of it.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:44 am

View Original PostAzathoth wrote:So I would say that the human body is its own core

It's probably called a "core" in the first place because it, well, represents/contains the core/essence of the Angel's being. By definition, the core is not the whole. The entire concept of an entire human being the core of a human is fundamentally nonsensical. :nyao:

I'm hip with the rest of what you said, tho.
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Re: Human "Core" = Brain?

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Postby Stikuru » Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:49 am

View Original PostGuilt & Innocence wrote:As we all know, Lilith's fruit/core is called the fruit of knowledge.


Just curious, when did it say that Lilith's core is the fruit of knowledge? I don't recall the series ever saying that.... but I may have missed it.

The only time that I remember them even mentioning the fruits is when they said that angels ate from the fruit of life and humans ate from the fruit of knowledge.
Or maybe they said that they ate from the tree of life/knowledge.... I forgot exactly. :/

ANYWAYS! I always thought that the human soul was it's core.
I just inferred from the fact that the core is the source of the angels power (which I assume means that it also creates their at fields), and Kaworu claims that the human at field is created by their soul. So I thought that the core for an angel was the same as a soul for a human.

Sorry if what I wrote was difficult to read. I am having a weird problem where I can barely understand my own sentences right now. xD

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Re: Human "Core" = Brain?

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Postby Guilt & Innocence » Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:03 am

View Original PostStikuru wrote:Just curious, when did it say that Lilith's core is the fruit of knowledge? I don't recall the series ever saying that.... but I may have missed it.

The only time that I remember them even mentioning the fruits is when they said that angels ate from the fruit of life and humans ate from the fruit of knowledge.
Or maybe they said that they ate from the tree of life/knowledge.... I forgot exactly. :/

ANYWAYS! I always thought that the human soul was it's core.
I just inferred from the fact that the core is the source of the angels power (which I assume means that it also creates their at fields), and Kaworu claims that the human at field is created by their soul. So I thought that the core for an angel was the same as a soul for a human.

Sorry if what I wrote was difficult to read. I am having a weird problem where I can barely understand my own sentences right now. xD


ADAM = Fruit of life = Angels

Lilith = Fruit of Knowledge = Humans
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Postby NemZ » Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:43 am

Brain isn't specific enough. I'm going to go with the pituitary gland, which has precedent as Descartes' hypothetical point at which the mind/spirit interacted to control the body.
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Postby Azathoth » Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:49 am

Wasn't it the pineal gland?
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Postby Allemann » Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:01 am

Yes.

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Postby NemZ » Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:18 pm

true, my mistake.
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Postby Tribblepoo » Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:10 am

I remember Misato stating in EoE that "humans are the 18th angel", basing this statement on what she learned from Kaji's data. Now this would bear out one of two ways.

First, it is a mistaken assumption on Misato's part. She merely misinterpreted the data presented. Similar, she did not misinterpret the data, but was repeating a misinterpretation she took as fact.

Second, humans really are the 18th angel. Now this requires some looking at. First, one must look at how it is said; humans (plural) are the 18th angel (singular). This means that the entire race of humans is one angel. This itself leads to two possibilities.

Given that each angel (with the exception of Israfel) had one core, then it would seem that the entire race of humans has one core that no part of which is contained within a single human body because the destruction of one human would mean the destruction of all humans. This leaves the question of where this core would be. However, I will leave that for others to speculate for I have another point to make.

It is entirely possible for a portion of a core to be contained within each human. The precedent for this is the aforementioned Israfel. This angel possessed the ability to split its core, using one half to regenerate the other in order to make it more difficult to destroy. The destruction of one did not mean the destruction of all when in the split state. Both had to be destroyed or attacked together for any progress in fighting Israfel to be effective. Humanity may work the same way; with each human possessing a small portion of an overall larger core, requiring some suitably cataclysmic event to seriously endanger the life of the 18th angel.
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Postby Warren Peace » Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:32 am

If Humanity is literally the 18th Angel, it resembles Ireul more than anything else. EOE directly references that episode, even. Tiny parts working in concert to take down Nerv...

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Postby AuraTwilight » Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:36 pm

View Original PostTribblepoo wrote:I remember Misato stating in EoE that "humans are the 18th angel", basing this statement on what she learned from Kaji's data. Now this would bear out one of two ways.

First, it is a mistaken assumption on Misato's part. She merely misinterpreted the data presented. Similar, she did not misinterpret the data, but was repeating a misinterpretation she took as fact.

Second, humans really are the 18th angel. Now this requires some looking at. First, one must look at how it is said; humans (plural) are the 18th angel (singular). This means that the entire race of humans is one angel. This itself leads to two possibilities.

Given that each angel (with the exception of Israfel) had one core, then it would seem that the entire race of humans has one core that no part of which is contained within a single human body because the destruction of one human would mean the destruction of all humans. This leaves the question of where this core would be. However, I will leave that for others to speculate for I have another point to make.

It is entirely possible for a portion of a core to be contained within each human. The precedent for this is the aforementioned Israfel. This angel possessed the ability to split its core, using one half to regenerate the other in order to make it more difficult to destroy. The destruction of one did not mean the destruction of all when in the split state. Both had to be destroyed or attacked together for any progress in fighting Israfel to be effective. Humanity may work the same way; with each human possessing a small portion of an overall larger core, requiring some suitably cataclysmic event to seriously endanger the life of the 18th angel.


Or we don't function that way because we were born from Lilith, not Adam.
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Postby arkiel » Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:45 pm

Just going to pop in with my wacky DNA-is-human-analog-for-core-and/or-ATF.

Or it could be something super-abstract, like a collective unconsciousness -- either a literal carrier field everyone interacts with without realizing it, or a general set of instructions scripted into our genes.

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Postby r0ach » Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:05 pm

View Original PostAzathoth wrote:Wasn't it the pineal gland?


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Postby Tribblepoo » Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:19 pm

View Original PostAuraTwilight wrote:Or we don't function that way because we were born from Lilith, not Adam.

That would fall under the misinterpretation that I touched on.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:42 pm

That doesn't mean that the misinterpretation is on Misato's part, however; she's totally right about the Lilin being the 18th Angel. She never explained what that means, so any misinterpretation can only be on the audience's part.
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Postby Tribblepoo » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:46 pm

View Original PostAuraTwilight wrote:That doesn't mean that the misinterpretation is on Misato's part, however; she's totally right about the Lilin being the 18th Angel. She never explained what that means, so any misinterpretation can only be on the audience's part.

As I explained, the misinterpretation could be from two sources (discounting the audience). One is from Misato not quite understanding what she has read. The second is that she understood the information, but the source itself was a misinterpretation (or possible outright lie).

Also, if Misato is "totally right" about Lilin being the 18th angel (though no evidence for this is given) and then never explains the remark, how is it the audience's fault for interpreting the data that they have been given? If you are going to break the 4th wall to place blame, then that is a writing fuckup, not an audience one.

On another note, I had thought of another way of looking at this; that the information that Misato had was both right and wrong at the same time. SEELE is known for speaking cryptically and with their mindset, it's likely that information pertaining to humans being the 18th angel in the present tense is simply thinly obscured code for SEELE's intentions. In this case, SEELE is making a statement of intent disguised as a statement of fact. If this possibility is true, then humanity will not yet have a core, as it is not yet an angel (the Instrumentality overmind), but once it transforms, it will. To SEELE and anyone who is "in on" the secret agenda, the meaning of such information would be clear. To anyone else, it would simply lead them on some sort of wild goose chase to figure out more facts about something that isn't (yet) true.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:07 pm

Also, if Misato is "totally right" about Lilin being the 18th angel (though no evidence for this is given) and then never explains the remark, how is it the audience's fault for interpreting the data that they have been given? If you are going to break the 4th wall to place blame, then that is a writing fuckup, not an audience one.


Honestly, that's like saying that the writer of Twin Peaks fucked up for being confusing. The fact that humans don't have explosive superpowers is already proof that we're not angels in the exact same sense as Adam's children, and it's also common information that we are Lilith's children in the Eva-verse. If people can't work out what her statement properly means, it's honestly not the show's fault. It's pretty intuitive.

On another note, I had thought of another way of looking at this; that the information that Misato had was both right and wrong at the same time. SEELE is known for speaking cryptically and with their mindset, it's likely that information pertaining to humans being the 18th angel in the present tense is simply thinly obscured code for SEELE's intentions. In this case, SEELE is making a statement of intent disguised as a statement of fact. If this possibility is true, then humanity will not yet have a core, as it is not yet an angel (the Instrumentality overmind), but once it transforms, it will. To SEELE and anyone who is "in on" the secret agenda, the meaning of such information would be clear. To anyone else, it would simply lead them on some sort of wild goose chase to figure out more facts about something that isn't (yet) true.


Lilin is an angel because Humans and Angels are the same thing. They're synonyms in the Eva-verse. Instrumentality is not supposed to 'make us an Angel', since disembodied souls are not technically Angels.
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Postby Tribblepoo » Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:42 pm

View Original PostAuraTwilight wrote:Honestly, that's like saying that the writer of Twin Peaks fucked up for being confusing.

Actually, yes, that would be another case of it being the writer's fault. The audience doesn't have any control over the manner in which a writer presents their material. Therefore, it cannot be the audience's fault. What would be the audience's fault is their interpretation of what is presented, not how the subject matter is presented.

The fact that humans don't have explosive superpowers is already proof that we're not angels in the exact same sense as Adam's children, and it's also common information that we are Lilith's children in the Eva-verse.

Humans, individually, don't have superpowers. However, Misato was not speaking about humans individually, now was she? She was speaking of humans as an entire race. As a whole, humanity has some goddamn impressive and rather frightening powers that exceed those of most of the other angels.

If people can't work out what her statement properly means, it's honestly not the show's fault.

This is like putting someone in a dark room, handing them a book, then blaming them for not being able to read the book. The writers chose how to present the information, not the audience. It's astounding to me how anyone can honestly blame the audience for something that is beyond their control.

Then again, all of this is a moot point, because I made the comment about misinterpretation from an in-character perspective. Besides, it is getting off topic.

Lilin is an angel because Humans and Angels are the same thing. They're synonyms in the Eva-verse. Instrumentality is not supposed to 'make us an Angel', since disembodied souls are not technically Angels.

You are talking to me like I believe this. I do not. I was simply stating another way of looking at the situation. I, and many other people, are quite capable of seeing things from multiple angles.

And now for something completely different...

Back to the subject of humanity having a core. There is actually precedent for this both ways. First, we must "sort of" ignore the fact that Lilin is a Lilithian angel and not an Adamite angel. We have no other examples of Lilithian angels to work from, so we must take our clues from the Adamite angels. If one accepts this concession (which I believe is a reasonable one given what we see, or rather don't see, in the show) then we can start making the arguments for both cases.

First I will tackle "humanity has no core". Other than Lilin, five angels in the show (Iruel, (NGE) Sahaquiel, Leliel, Armisael and Tabris) are never seen to have cores nor said to have cores. Taking this at face value, it is not necessary for an angel to have a core, for whatever reason. This is a fairly simple, straightforward and reasonable analysis (sometimes those are the best). However, I do not believe it takes into account all the facts.

The theory that humanity has a core is a little more complex. Again we have to start with Iruel, (NGE) Sahaquiel, Leliel, Armisael and Tabris, the angels who are never shown or directly stated to have cores. However, they are also never stated to NOT have them either. To the best of my knowledge, there is no angel that is stated to not have a core. At best, the information is simply omitted. In the absence of such information, inferences must be used based on the available evidence. In this case, all other 12 angels combated in the show have cores, either directly seen or stated to have them. Evidence also shows that Adam (directly seen) and Lilith (inferred through the presence of cores in Evangelions) have cores. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to assume that a key aspect to an angel's physiology is the presence of a core. By extension of this, humanity has a core of some fashion. While this theory is reasonable and takes into account more information presented in NGE and EoE, it does have to make more assumptions in order to explain all of the evidence.

On a personal note, while the latter has problems, I do think it is closer to the mark than the former for the simple reason that it takes more relevant information into account.
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