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Monk Ed
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Postby Monk Ed » Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:24 am

I just beat Peace Walker HD... for real. And I must say.

Holy. Shit. Holy. Shit. I did not see that coming. I'm completely blown away by the true, final ending. I can't believe that ...

(Seriously, a massive spoiler, I'm talking a kind of spoiler I would not wish upon anyone)
(Also, seriously long)
SPOILER: Show

in the end, Paz was evil all along.

The only thing I've felt for the past hour and a half is a persistent state of shock. Never, at least in recent memory, has a game or any work of art done something like this to me. Never.

I thought that the story of Peace Walker was over. It was a nice, cute story. No real surprises, just a good ride, much like MGS3 for that matter, almost archetypal or folkloric or something. Just a real good solid story. Even made me cry. When I completed the last Zadornov mission and read on a wiki that you must find him by going to the target practice range, and that it would be followed by battling against a hijacked Zeke, I thought little of it -- that it would just be me against Zadornov in Zeke and after that the game would be over, concluding with maybe a little something or other tying the story into the broader metanarrative. I didn't even consider that who Zadornov's accomplice was would even be all that important -- just some futurely-important character like Vamp or even a brand new characer or even a complete rando.

Instead of that simple ending, now I'm walking away from this game with so much more on my mind.

Paz turning out to be evil... How can I explain. Paz became a little something more than a video game character to me. Not on the level of the Evangelion cast or anything, but still something kind of special. She was a character I was engaged with enough to make up stories about. Not more so than other characters in the same class, and not even enough that I ever actually got around to writing those stories down, but still a character, an idea, with a special place in my heart around which I built a shroud from my imagination. A comfortable, stable place.

That's gone now -- and it's like nothing I've ever experienced.

It's hard to explain. It's something that's never happened to me before -- where something happens which so completely changes who a character is to me (after I've already gotten to the point of fapping to them) that it completely invalidates that shroud of stories I've built up around them from my own imagination, to where I'm not sure I can ever think of those stories again without something in my mind going this is wrong or this is a lie (even if all fiction is equally false). If Paz had simply died, I could have at least kept her memory alive in my imagination, but now... This is a kind of shock that even death can't deal. A kind of shock so severe that it affected me even when the character in question was not even, like, the most important fictional character in the world to me or anything like that.

I wouldn't say that what I feel is exactly heartbreak. I did begin to think of Paz in a way I think of very few other characters (not quite on the level of the Evangelion cast, for example, but maybe Yuna or Rikku (and it certainly helps that Paz has Rikku's voice in the English version)), but even I have limits on how attached I let myself get to fictional characters. But if such a thing can possibly said regarding my feelings for a fictional character, this would probably be the time to say it.

It's more like, the kind of feeling, a pain you don't want to face but makes you grow and you're glad afterwards that it happened even if you would deny wanting it to ever happen again, that takes a story from already pretty good or even great to a level of true golden mastery that I wonder if I'll ever experience again.

Bravo, Hideo and whoever else deserves it for thinking up this twist. Bravo. The old man's still got it -- or even more than still got it, it's as if he's only improved.

The funny thing is, in retrospect, I feel like I should have seen it coming. It feels so obvious now -- as if it was only sheer disbelief that someone like Paz could be anything less than sincere that I refused to entertain that she could be willfully evil. The hints were all there, such as when Kaz mentioned that Zadornov managed to escape (one time of many) because Paz led the guard away to join the ladies in the kitchen to taste some of their cooking. The most I ever entertained was that she was a Manchurian candidate or was being put up to it or something like that -- and the writing even has Kaz allude to this right as soon as Paz is revealed to be in the cockpit of Zeke (he says "She's not herself!" but Paz then quickly proves this wrong), which shows just how masterfully they knew exactly what would be going through our minds.

One of the stories I came up with before learning Paz's true nature even sort of "predicted" (not really) her defection. One night alone with myself in bed, at some point after learning from Kaz that Paz lured a guard away from Zadornov's cell and thus "accidentally" was complicit in his latest escape, I decided to imagine a pornographic version of how that scene might have gone, and imagined her sinfully tempting him away to taste her "cooking" -- cunnilingus followed by them joining an orgy-in-progress in the kitchen involving Amanda and Cecile and like half the MSF. I used the idea of her luring him away "intentionally" as a way to add sinful spice to her, without considering why I would consider it sinful when I don't think of sex as sinful on its own. I characterized it as sinful in my mind because she was leading him away from his duty -- without ever thinking more on what exactly it meant that she was leading him away on purpose from that cage. It was this black hole, this blind spot in my thinking that I ignored so completely that it was not even like denial, just a complete glossing over, and it could perhaps be that I'm only imagining after the fact that I truly knew or suspected anything at the time but I really feel like my lack of analysis of it says something.

I never actually wrote down any of the hentai scenarios I've come up with surrounding Paz, and for once in my life, I'm not sure I'll ever be able to. Because who Paz is, after I've begun to care about her to the point where I think of her at night, has so fundamentally changed. Her behavior at the end of Peace Walker completely redefines her as a character, and now I just ... don't know what to think. I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do with the her that exists in my mind. I can't just go on and write those same stories or even think of them again like this didn't happen, like it was some other Paz at the end of the game, not just because it happened, but because it managed to be the natural endpoint of everything that she is. This wasn't just some ass-pull; this was what everything was pointing to and leading up to the whole time, and can't be ignored. It tied together all the loose ends I didn't even notice before and made her a whole, complete package.

One tiny flicker of hope remains. And I don't mean hope for the idea that I could ever think of Paz the way I used to, or fap to the old stories of her.

It started with the conversations I found in the Data Briefings after the final credits. One of them was with Chico. It revealed that Paz tried to sabotage Zeke before she wound up hijacking it. And that got me thinking that maybe there was some good in her that was not an illusion. Then I went to the Metal Gear wiki and read Paz's entry. Apparently there is actually quite a bit more to the story: If you fight the hardest optional bosses, you can acquire tapes that Paz made which reveal even more about her true self and her experiences in the MSF, and they add more hope. And you can eventually also get one final conversation with Chico about Paz that adds even more hope. Hope that, 1), that Paz might still be alive, and 2), that there did wind up being some good in her just before the end.

This tiny flicker of hope is not really about me wanting to see Paz in future installments of the series, nor is it about me really caring what happens to her afterwards and hoping for her to have a better life or whatever. Rather, it regards what Paz means to me in my own mind from here on -- what kinds of stories I could or would have to construct around her now to form that emotional connection that I enjoy, in bed and otherwise. I may never be able to get myself to write or even think again the stories I've already thought up, which were based on the Paz I thought I knew, but maybe this new information, detailing the more complete Paz who was revealed to me tonight, can give birth to new stories in their place.

Still... I feel a great sense of loss and longing for that more innocent time, when Paz was nothing more than a sweet, charming girl who was just as much of a peacenik as I am.

Addendum:
SPOILER: Show

After writing the bulk of this post I decided to give the Date with Paz mission one last go because I learned from the wiki that you can interrogate her and I figure I might as well see the last piece of content that I can for myself before I turn this back over to my friend (I think I'll just find youtubes of the Paz tapes or something instead of going to all the massive trouble that it takes to unlock them myself). I previously achieved S rank on the mission (oh man, what a new context that love box action has now knowing what I know about her now), so she was in her underwear, which I believe is the only way you can interrogate her. I grabbed her, interrogated her several times, and I must say, I wonder what I would have felt doing that interrogation before learning what I learned about her tonight. I wonder if I would have figured it out or if I would have simply felt awful for doing such a thing to her.

Final addendum:
SPOILER: Show

One teeny tiny insignificant question remains in my mind. Does Paz wear her underwear in Zeke no matter what, or was that only because I completed the Date with Paz mission? I know she was drawn in her underwear even in the comic-style cutscene, but for all I know that was just the result of the artist being made to draw two different versions for the sake of doing a good job of maintaining consistency, and instead if I had not done that mission she'd have been wearing her school uniform in there.

I bring this up because seeing her be inexplicably in her underwear during that scene was kind of distracting and left me wondering why, and although the impact was fairly negligible, occupying little more than a subchannel in my otherwise utterly shocked brain, it was still significant and I'd like to know.
Last edited by Monk Ed on Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:02 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: WAAAAAAAGHHH!!!!! BD

Postby Alaska Slim » Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:52 am

View Original PostCJD wrote:Edit: just to be clear, I wasn't implying that the games you guys listed were "casual".

You were wrong on both counts.

I have now played Earth & Beyond for 10 years, I have three character at or close to lvl 150, a character of EACH class above 100, 75% of the recipes in the game, including a few players can no longer obtain, and shot a missile barrage of lvl 9 Zets right up Blackbeard's shiny, florescent ass.

I turned schools of Combat lvl 66 ten-gu into fishmeal.

I smoked the Ostrea of the Valkyrie Twin suns.

The 10th circle of the Chavez Pirates CURSE MY VERY NAME! THE HULKS OF 1,000s OF THEIR BROKEN, SH*TASTIC SHIPS STILL ORBIT VENUS TO THIS VERY DAY, THEIR DESECRATED CORPSES PICKED CLEAN BY THE BIO-RIPPERS!

... Oh, and I shot a comet. Take THAT Deep Impact!

Now if I could only bake the cake, and make it an un-lie...
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Re: WAAAAAAAGHHH!!!!! BD

Postby CJD » Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:18 am

View Original PostAlaska Slim wrote:You were wrong on both counts.

I have now played Earth & Beyond for 10 years

Wait, you have 10 years played? As in 10 years actually logged into the game? How is that even possible, the game's not even 10 years old.
Now if I could only bake the cake, and make it an un-lie...

You're better than this...

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Re: WAAAAAAAGHHH!!!!! BD

Postby Alaska Slim » Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:02 am

View Original PostCJD wrote:Wait, you have 10 years played? As in 10 years actually logged into the game?


No, but I was a beta tester in 2002, fair to say I rounded up by a few months.

But that's just how long I've played chronologically, the game went offline in 2004, and didn't come back publicly for about 4-5 years.

View Original PostCJD wrote:You're better than this...


No seriously, there is a mission to create a cake, but one of the ingredients (sugar) refuses to drop, and I'm not entirely certain it wasn't intentional...

It pisses me off, vault space is at a premium for me, and three of them are taken by the other items.


And true story, I'm a living example of the XKCD comic, I didn't play Portal until this year.
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Re: WAAAAAAAGHHH!!!!! BD

Postby Monk Ed » Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:57 am

View Original PostAlaska Slim wrote:
And true story, I'm a living example of the XKCD comic, I didn't play Portal until this year.

Economic time preference theory exemplified.
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Postby Na7e » Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:43 pm

Time to restart Mass Effect 3. Grind my readiness level, and prepared to be dissapointed when the Extended Cut is released this Tuesday. And, then buy Dawnguard for Skyrim.

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Postby liquidus118 » Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:43 am

View Original PostNa7e wrote:Time to restart Mass Effect 3. Grind my readiness level, and prepared to be dissapointed when the Extended Cut is released this Tuesday. And, then buy Dawnguard for Skyrim.
From what I know the Extended Cut is 10 minutes long and doesn't have any gameplay.

At least we get to see Bioware (and whoever has invested in EA) squirm a little on Tuesday.



Also quick note for anyone going to play the EC: they said to not load a save at the end, instead one
SPOILER: Show
just before you attack the Illusive Man's base.
So presumably there's something new there.

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Postby CJD » Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:31 am

View Original PostNa7e wrote:Time to restart Mass Effect 3. Grind my readiness level, and prepared to be dissapointed when the Extended Cut is released this Tuesday.


Look at it this way: They can't make it any worse.

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Postby liquidus118 » Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:51 am

View Original PostCJD wrote:Look at it this way: They can't make it any worse.
Well, by explaining the ending less ambiguously they'll destroy people's headcannon meaning most people who had come to terms with the awful ending will be forced again to realise it was just awful.

Most people forgot or stopped caring by this point. They're just opening a barely, badly-healed scab in my opinion.

Not to mention in interviews the writers seem genuinely surprised that people hated the ending, suggesting they're so out of touch that they don't even know what to fix or how to fix it.

They also focussed on saying how it'll add 'closure' as if this was the only problem people had with the ending, suggesting the other major issues (plot holes, shitting over the story, characters and thematic build up, not seeing consequences of actions, choices having no consequences in the first place, not having real choice at the end, pulling a bullshit exposition ghost at the end, giving us an ABC ending when they explicitly said those were bad and not what they were doing) will go unfixed.

Heck, they even said
SPOILER: Show
Casey Hudson wrote:“In some cases people feared the worst, that no matter what decisions you make, the entire galaxy is destroyed, everyone starves to death. Which of course wasn’t our intention, it wasn’t the way we saw it, and it wasn’t the intended message of how the Mass Effect universe would end.”
Even though this is so obviously what happens in the ending that I can't help but wonder what they think the ending actually comprises of. Maybe the two people who wrote the ending just don't know any of the lore what-so-ever.

I'm excited, but purely to see what desperate attempts at clambering out this hole they have made.

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Postby Aiko Heiwa » Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:55 am

Been playing Donkey Kong '94 on my 3DS.

Best Game Boy game?

Best Game Boy game.
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Postby Xard » Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:50 pm

finally got rid of bugs that were bothering me with Tsukihime

Image

As far as boy meets girl setups go this by far takes the cake among ones I've seen lately. :lol:

started with Arcueid route which has been pretty nice. Helps that she's very likeable and high tier girl, I kinda wonder if the others compare.


Speaking of others, there was this really cute and nice classmate who was definetly likeable and I started thinking maybe I should do that route next... before I realized her hair was strangely familiar for some reasn and then something about the name clicked orz

[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/594/sadsacchin.jpg/]Image[/URL]

seriously this shit is more tragic than Grave of Fireflies :(

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Postby Merridian » Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:24 pm

View Original PostXard wrote:started with Arcueid route which has been pretty nice. Helps that she's very likeable and high tier girl, I kinda wonder if the others compare.
The maids do.

The thing about Tsukihime was that it was less about the girls and more about the warped fucking scenarios they were involved with. Kohaku's route is pretty intense, and I thought Hisui's route was gripping too, despite most of the "action" turning out to be feverishly trying to stay alive, paralyzed, and bedridden for a day or two or something. Oh yeah, and Akiha's endings... oh man.

Currently playing SimCity 4 again. I seem to binge on this game once a year for several months, but unfortunately, the last time I did such a thing, I had a different computer and can't work with my previous cities. Maybe this time I'll be able to focus on it enough to breach a million citizens in my region. Shouldn't be too difficult.

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Postby CJD » Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:56 am

View Original Postliquidus118 wrote:Not to mention in interviews the writers seem genuinely surprised that people hated the ending, suggesting they're so out of touch that they don't even know what to fix or how to fix it.


Oh they're not just out of touch, they're terrible too. They've proven they're horrible writers, and this is why I could honestly care less about people asking they completely redo the ending. No matter how many do overs we give Bioware the ending will always suck because Bioware's writing team just generally sucks.[/spoiler]

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Postby liquidus118 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:34 am

View Original PostCJD wrote:Oh they're not just out of touch, they're terrible too. They've proven they're horrible writers, and this is why I could honestly care less about people asking they completely redo the ending. No matter how many do overs we give Bioware the ending will always suck because Bioware's writing team just generally sucks.
I think the biggest issue is that they changed the lead writers. Originally a lot of it was done by Drew Karpyshyn, who was the original lead writer and was doing something completely different with the Reapers, as well as the fact that over the course of the first 2 games the majority of the other writers left for other projects. In the original, when they were written by him, they were mysterious and all-powerful beings that genuinely felt 'beyond our comprehension'. Their motivation was originally
SPOILER: Show
"The Reapers' goal was to find a way to stop the spread of Dark Energy which would eventually consume everything. That's why there was so much foreshadowing about Dark Energy in ME2.

The Reapers as a whole were 'nations' of people who had fused together in the most horrific way possible to help find a way to stop the spread of the Dark Energy. The real reason for the Human Reaper was supposed to be the Reapers saving throw because they had run out of time. Humanity in Mass Effect is supposedly unique because of it's genetic diversity and represented the universe's best chance at stopping Dark Energy's spread.

The original final choice was going to be "Kill the Reapers and put your faith in the races of the galaxy in finding another way to stop the spread with what little time is left" or "Sacrifice humanity, allowing them to be horrifically processed in hopes that the end result will justify the means."
Which is a motivation that makes sense since it's still 'beyond our comprehension' since organics wouldn't care about such a distant problem whilst at the same time we can see why the Reapers care; they're pretty much immortal (during ME1 anyway) and so something happening in millions or billions of years in time would logically scare them if they have no means of stopping it.

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Postby CJD » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:54 am

View Original Postliquidus118 wrote:I think the biggest issue is that they changed the lead writers.


Yea that's a big part of it. You can notice a trend, too. ME1 Drew was the lead, ME2 he shared that role with Mac, ME3 it was only Mac. It's no coincidence that the writing goes downhill through the series.

SPOILER: Show
And the big problem with abandoning Dark Energy is that you have these open plot threads with no resolve, and then they just introduce this entirely new macguffin in the third entry, which makes it feel really forced.


Like I said, just generally bad writers.

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Postby liquidus118 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:56 am

View Original PostCJD wrote:Yea that's a big part of it. You can notice a trend, too. ME1 Drew was the lead, ME2 he shared that role with Mac, ME3 it was only Mac. It's no coincidence that the writing goes downhill through the series.

SPOILER: Show
And the big problem with abandoning Dark Energy is that you have these open plot threads with no resolve, and then they just introduce this entirely new macguffin in the third entry, which makes it feel really forced.


Like I said, just generally bad writers.
Yup. I called that they'd pull
SPOILER: Show
SUPAH SECRUT PROTHEAN WEPON that know one knows about until juuuust before or after the Reapers attack
out there ass ever since ME2 finished. It's a damn shame, really. It's the laziest possible solution that anyone could think of.

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Postby InstrumentalityOne » Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:38 am

View Original PostMerridian wrote:The maids do.

The thing about Tsukihime was that it was less about the girls and more about the warped fucking scenarios they were involved with. Kohaku's route is pretty intense, and I thought Hisui's route was gripping too, despite most of the "action" turning out to be feverishly trying to stay alive, paralyzed, and bedridden for a day or two or something. Oh yeah, and Akiha's endings... oh man.

Which route is the Tsukihime manga, by the way?
Just straight Arcueid or something entirely different to the VN?

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Postby Merridian » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:33 am

View Original PostInstrumentalityOne wrote:Which route is the Tsukihime manga, by the way?
Just straight Arcueid or something entirely different to the VN?
I think the manga started off basically like the VN does, where the story isn't committed to any particular route but still focuses on Arcueid, but then the manga sort of branches off and condenses most of all of the routes into a single, strangely convoluted narrative. I remember liking the manga and how it managed to juggle all of that stuff, but I also remember not actually finishing it. I still don't know how it ends.

Every time I start to read it again with the intent to get through it, I get distracted by a more appealing TM doujin instead. They tend to be more entertaining than most of TM's output, anyway. :lol:

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Postby Xard » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:12 pm

>Bioware
>good writing


Seriously guys, what? Last decently written Bioware game was original Knights of the Old Republic and last great one was NWN's expansion pack Hordes of the Underdark. Bio's writing being shit hasn't been new for anyone not drinking the koolaid for years

View Original PostMerridian wrote:The maids do.


yay.

I must admit I'm a bit disappoint that apparently "rape the maids" is never actually possible choice in the game though and was just made up by /a/. This is a shame.

View Original PostMerridian wrote:The thing about Tsukihime was that it was less about the girls and more about the warped fucking scenarios they were involved with. Kohaku's route is pretty intense, and I thought Hisui's route was gripping too, despite most of the "action" turning out to be feverishly trying to stay alive, paralyzed, and bedridden for a day or two or something. Oh yeah, and Akiha's endings... oh man.


yeah, Arcueid route has been pretty interesting so far especially in this sense. It was also nice to have Tohno go all KnK Shiki against Chaos.

View Original PostMerridian wrote:I think the manga started off basically like the VN does, where the story isn't committed to any particular route but still focuses on Arcueid, but then the manga sort of branches off and condenses most of all of the routes into a single, strangely convoluted narrative. I remember liking the manga and how it managed to juggle all of that stuff, but I also remember not actually finishing it. I still don't know how it ends.


as far as I can tell the Tsukihime manga is well liked by the game fans generally so it should be pretty good, I guess.

View Original PostMerridian wrote:Every time I start to read it again with the intent to get through it, I get distracted by a more appealing TM doujin instead. They tend to be more entertaining than most of TM's output, anyway. :lol:


Clover Club? :P

Decided to finish Tsukihime before getting into their stuff :lol:

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Postby Tankred » Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:14 pm

View Original PostXard wrote:>Bioware
>good writing


Seriously guys, what? Last decently written Bioware game was original Knights of the Old Republic and last great one was NWN's expansion pack Hordes of the Underdark. Bio's writing being shit hasn't been new for anyone not drinking the koolaid for years


Thanks for telling us what we already knew in the first place.

Anyways, doing Symphony of the Night again, brooming around Castlevania.


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