Misato killed Kaji

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Misato killed Kaji

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Postby Lucretius » Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:47 pm

In NGE fandom, it is nigh-universally accepted that Kaji was killed by an anonymous agent working for either Seele or Gendo. This reading is, of course, supported by an old Anno interview in which the director says just that. However, evidence from the text itself is extremely flimsy, especially in the original on-air version.

First, I should say a few words about authorship. In organized internet fandom, there is a tendency to talk about popular works as if they were not self-contained texts, but windows into an alternate universe to which the "author" or director has privileged access. Although, of course, everyone knows intellectually that this is not true, this way of thinking persists on in fan circles as if the past hundred years of literary theory had not happened. The very term "canon" suggests that suggests that the religious metaphor is in full force; NGE is not a sci-fi series, but a divinely received text whose meaning can only be determined by the author-God. As Foucault says in "What is an Author?" :

Still, we can find through the ages certain constants in the rules of author construction. It seems, for example, that the manner in which literary criticism once defined the author - or, rather, constructed the figure of the author beginning with existing texts and discourses - is directly derived from the manner in which Christian tradition authenticated (or rejected) the texts at its disposal. In order to ‘rediscover’ an author in a work, modern criticism uses methods similar to those that Christian exegesis employed when trying to prove the value of a text by its author's saintliness.


Naturally, the concept of "authorship" is problematic enough for literary texts, let alone a collaborative effort such as a TV series or film. Although we often use "Anno" as shorthand for "studio Gainax circa 1995," these two are obviously not identical. Furthermore, even if Anno were the sole creator of NGE, who is to say that is interpretation of his own work has always remained constant? To cite an analogous example, Ridley Scott seems to have changed his mind several times with respect to the question of whether or not Rick Deckard, the hero of Blade Runner, is an android. According to Harrison Ford, the director once assured him that the character was human, but in recent interviews, Ridley Scott has claimed the opposite and re-edited the film accordingly.

This brings me to my main point: whether or not Misato killed Kaji is not an issue that can be determined by directorial fiat. Furthermore, it is very likely that the plot point in question was retconned in the DC edits. In the on-air and the DC episode, Misato's recovering her gun is followed mere seconds later by Kaji's murder. The scene in question can be viewed here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAPpMiDII3U#t=05m30s

Ignoring authorial fiat and later re-edits (such as the scene in the DC episodes where Kaji tells Fuyutsuki that Seele will likely kill him), it is quite clear that there is a causal link between these two scenes.

Misato's reaction makes all the more sense if she is Kaji's murderer; finding his message on the answering machine is a final, bitter irony. One may also note that there is no scene in which Misato learns of Kaji's murder, and his death does not seem to be common knowledge at Nerv.

He shuddered a bit, remembering the somewhat creepy level of detail Kaji had gone into, while rubbing a watermelon in a disturbingly sexual way.

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Re: Misato killed Kaji

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Postby Legendary » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:13 pm

View Original PostLucretius wrote:Misato's reaction makes all the more sense if she is Kaji's murderer; finding his message on the answering machine is a final, bitter irony.


Or she was just expecting such a message, and knew its arrival meant his death?

One may also note that there is no scene in which Misato learns of Kaji's murder, and his death does not seem to be common knowledge at Nerv.


The scene in question is when she learns of his murder in the "someone else did it" theory. Before you say "It's too vague" or something similar, let me point out: If Misato knew beforehand that Kaji died and the answering machine message is insufficient for her learning this, then Shinji would have no way to learn about Kaji's death due to his subsequent isolation from Misato, and (at least in the DC version) he is the person who informs Asuka of Kaji's demise. Asuka not knowing is reasonable from the fact that she is also heavily isolated from everyone at Nerv and Misato clearly doesn't have the heart to tell her in 22.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:15 pm

Didn't Anno make the changes in the DC episode because he didn't want people to come to the conclusion Misato killed Kaji? From what I remember, he was shocked people made that connection in the first place and went ahead and changed it for the VHS release.

Also, Misato has no motivation to kill Kaji. There was nothing before or after to security taking her gun that would push her to such an action. Misato did know that Kaji was going in over his head after he showed her the giant beast nailed to the wall, and knew that a message like this from Kaji would mean that he finally went too far. With that in mind, Misato's reaction to Kaji's message makes sense simply because Kaji died.

Sadamoto brings this point further home with his manga adaptation of the TV series. You never see the killer's face, but the close-ups of the hand and other areas clearly show male features wearing men's clothing holding a gun pointed at Kaji.

And finally, wasn't there a video game released in Japan where you got to play as Kaji's killer, and it ended up being just some dude never before seen in the series?

P.S. +1 about what Legendary said about Shinji's information on the matter.

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Postby Trajan » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:17 pm

Only Anno hasn't changed his mind as far as we know so for all intents and purposes, his interpretation that Misato DID NOT kill Kaji should still be considered canon. Plus, Anno never says anything regarding themes and such so for he to stamp out the Misato killed Kaji theory says a lot. Plus, it also doesn't make much sense in terms of the plot either. Because:
A) There is no foreshadowing.
B) Why would Misato continue investigating after she killed Kaji?
C) Seele and Nerv are smart and wouldn't send Kaji's former lover to kill him as she would be unreliable (for instance, remember when they took Misato's gun in episode 21?).
D) They were getting along fine in the episodes prior to 21 so to say that everything suddenly went to hell between them after 20 and before 21 without showing anything is too much of a suspension of disbelief.
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Postby Reichu » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:30 pm

I spy with my little eye a barely disguised commentary on the Kyoko thread...
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Postby Monk Ed » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:40 pm

*points* That's ... that's the article, What is an Author, that I've had open in my browser for days and I just now closed it before clicking on this topic!

Finally, a place where I can get these thoughts out.

Generally, I think that the reason it's exceedingly common for people to view the author as some kind of god or at least prophet of the story is because A) it is seen as his creation (because the story wouldn't exist without him), and B) it adds to the sense of reality of the work. To completely remove his authority from describing the work outside of the work is, to me, to invalidate the work itself, at least as a thing we can talk about as if it actually exists "out there, somewhere" (vs just in our own minds). The author, in that instance, then becomes not so much the maker nor teller of a story so much as the maker of a story-inducer that causes our own brains to create our own individual stories that nobody knows or can talk about but ourselves.

Or in other words, if we invalidate the author and think of the work instead as something that is truly up to us to decide (in other words, create) the physical events of, then there's little point in discussing it because whenever we say something like "Asuka is like this" we'd all, every one of us, actually be talking about a completely different Asuka -- the one that exists exclusively in the speaker's own mind.
Last edited by Monk Ed on Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:50 pm

I was under the impression that they already located Kaji (and maybe already killed him) when she was freed, I doubt that they'd do it otherwise.
Also why should she kill him? I can only guess that she was ordered to do so (like the protagonist of Secret of Evangelion) but she was kept under custody until that moment because they couldn't trust her. Why should they give the killing mission to her? They have plenty of agents that could do it and that don't have any kind of link with Kaji.
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Postby EvangelionFan » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:00 pm

IIT if she had a reason, it would probably be pressure from higher-ups - sort of like 'Kill him, or we'll kill you too for being too close' or something like that, and naturally she would have had to do it because she has to be around for Shinji. As there's no evidence of such pressure, that line of reasoning easily falls apart.
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Postby thewayneiac » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:03 pm

We need to remember that after Ep. 15 Kaji and Misato were explicitly working together. In Ep. 20 he gives her a capsule full of stolen top secret info. If she got caught she would probably been shot as a spy herself. Misato shooting Kaji makes no sense from a story P.O.V. It's not surprising that Anno was shocked that some people held this belief.
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Postby Fireand'chutes77 » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:43 pm

View Original PostHyper Shinchan wrote:I was under the impression that they already located Kaji (and maybe already killed him) when she was freed...

Agreed. It was my impression that they'd put her in confinement to keep her from interfering while they went after Kaji. She suspected as much, but it was fully confirmed / hit home when she listened to the message.

My biggest moment of Fridge Horror was the realization that Shinji was probably home when the message came in... Did he understand what he was hearing? Did he reach for the phone but stop as realization dawned, or listen from another room with a sick feeling in his stomach? How might have things changed if he'd happened to answer?
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Postby Reichu » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:48 pm

View Original PostFireand'chutes77 wrote:How might have things changed if he'd happened to answer?

Probably not much... I can imagine Kaji, with mixed awkwardness and nonchalance, giving Shinji some kind of code message for Misato and not providing any indication that this is probably his last day on Earth.

Well, okay. Maybe things would have changed to the extent that Kaji might have given Shinji some choice last words to chew on... over and over and over again in the way that Shinji inevitably would have.
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Postby esselfortium » Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:03 pm

View Original PostFireand'chutes77 wrote:How might have things changed if he'd happened to answer?

There's a Cutting Room Floor chapter that adeptly tackles this issue.

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Postby NemZ » Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:03 pm

View Original PostMonk Ed wrote:Or in other words, if we invalidate the author and think of the work instead as something that is truly up to us to decide (in other words, create) the physical events of, then there's little point in discussing it because whenever we say something like "Asuka is like this" we'd all, every one of us, actually be talking about a completely different Asuka -- the one that exists exclusively in the speaker's own mind.


Yes, and that's why people use evidence from the common source of these many 'inner Asukas', the series we all watched, to help bring about an instrumentality of our divergent mental frameworks into a single agreed-upon Truth.

The simple fact is that communication happens in 3 stages: in the mind(s) of the messages' creators, as the message itself, and in the mind(s) of the audience. The author(s) make whatever attempt to get the intended point across but this isn't an infallible process and often what is heard is more important than what is said. Indeed, it is perhaps this very dissonance that defines a work as deep and meaningful rather than blunt and preachy. That is to say, a work of art can often be IMPROVED by making it's message less clear, forcing the audience to work a little for it and to discuss different conclusions. Thus ultimately what the author(s) intend is of very little consequence in any work worth the trouble to discuss in the first place.

Now as to the matter specifically at hand, I don't see that Misato killing Kaji is necessarily something to dismiss. Afterall, we've seen her put a gun to his head before, and likewise with Ritsuko in 23. Therefore we can conclude that these sorts of security matters, even in cases where she doesn't know what she's keeping secure, are very much part of her job. Now as to why she would go through with killing Kaji, I see two answers that don't necessarily contradict:

1) To prove her loyalty to Nerv and thus allow her to continue the investigative work that Kaji clearly cares more about than his own life and happiness with her.

2) To revenge herself on the notion that he really was just using her, having proven to be exactly the sort of man she feared he was all those years ago, the sort who puts other things before those he cares about, just like her dad (and as her neglect of Shinji and Asuka after this shows, just like her too).
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Postby EvangelionFan » Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:29 pm

@NemZ: This is what I wanted to get at, and you've put it very clearly. +1
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Postby Aozora » Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:54 pm

View Original PostFireand'chutes77 wrote:My biggest moment of Fridge Horror was the realization that Shinji was probably home when the message came in... Did he understand what he was hearing? Did he reach for the phone but stop as realization dawned, or listen from another room with a sick feeling in his stomach? How might have things changed if he'd happened to answer?

Now things suddenly make sense! Shinji was listening to music when Misato came home and checked the message, and only popped his head out when she was crying...so he probably didn't hear the message when Misato played it. And Shinji doesn't seem perceptive enough to infer Misato crying > Kaji died, yet he still knew Kaji had died. If he heard the message when it came in, and and already knew when Misato came home and just continued with his escapism after he heard her crying...

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:56 pm

7/10.
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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Sun Jun 19, 2011 11:01 pm

Well, this theory can't be completely dismissed but it's almost floating on air.
Misato killing Kaji to prove her loyalty is something quite bizarre, why did they free her in the first place if he was still around? If there was a reason for her imprisonment, there should be a reason for her release. I think that the only possible reason (according to this theory) could be the order of killing Kaji but the agent that released her and gave her back weapon and ID said:
the problem has been resolved, so...

tell me, what else could it possibly mean? I can only interpret it as:
"Kaji has been stopped, we're freeing you since there's no risk that you could help him any more; we didn't have any charge against you, this was only a preventive measure because of your past relationship, sorry for the inconvenient" (wow such a long paraphrase!).
And that agent was elusive about Kaji's whereabouts (which isn't logical if you think that they wanted her to kill him).
You could say that the order came in a successive moment but this is just getting more and more weak.
And I doubt that she could have killed him for revenge, she was probably quite aware that Kaji was using her to a certain extent (and viceversa) but this is more a supposition than anything else (but saying that she wanted to exact revenge on Kaji is a supposition as well, maybe even a bolder one).
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Postby TehDonutKing » Sun Jun 19, 2011 11:37 pm

What about episode 25? Misato killing Kaji would've been mentioned had it happened?

Also, what's this about a game where you play as Kaji's killer? I've never heard of it.
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Postby esselfortium » Sun Jun 19, 2011 11:47 pm

View Original PostHyper Shinchan wrote:I think that the only possible reason (according to this theory) could be the order of killing Kaji but the agent that released her and gave her back weapon and ID said:

tell me, what else could it possibly mean? I can only interpret it as:
"Kaji has been stopped, we're freeing you since there's no risk that you could help him any more; we didn't have any charge against you, this was only a preventive measure because of your past relationship, sorry for the inconvenient" (wow such a long paraphrase!).

But Kaji wasn't dead yet until after that conversation.

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Postby Bagheera » Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:25 am

Hmmm. Normally I'm all for alternate explanations (obviously), but when your theory relies on a paper thin motive, and rejects a perfectly sound alternative (one that, AFAIK, isn't problematic in the least), and ignores the DC material, and ignores authorial fiat on top of that...well, it seems a bit of a stretch. It's possible, obviously, but it doesn't seem to have anywhere nearly as much going for it as the alternative.

Is there a problem with the "SEELE killed Kaji" theory, or is this based entirely on the unfortunate sequence of scenes in the original airing?
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