Souls, Contact Experiments and Evas, oh my!

[Space Penis]

So...this idea has been bouncing around my head for ages. It all started the first time I watched EoE, when Rei says "I'm home" to Lilith and she responds- this bugged the hell out of me at the time. But anyway.

Also note that I'm going with the idea that "soul" is referring to the entirity of a person conciousness, not just some bizzaro mystical quantity. Just bear with me for now.

When OMF rolled around with his thread about Kyoko's "Death and Rebirth", as he put it, I did agree with him. But this quote here:

I don't see why it is so imperative that Kyouko lost her soul.

Because soulless Evas swallow your soul! That's just what the C.E. does... you know?

Really got me thinking.

Now, I know the accepted position is that there's some sort of deficiet in NERVs cloning program, which results in any artifically produced life lacking a soul. But where did this come from? AFAIK, it's because the Contact Experiments have always resulted in the person carrying out the test have apparently had their soul sucked into the Eva, possibly through some sort of straw.

Now, Kyoko's CE has always been a bit of an anomaly- if you go with teh conventional "It took her soul!" explanation, you end up with an exception to the "No soul->No ATF->No physical form" rule, which requires all sorts of contrived explanations.

But! if we go with OMFs theory, we're stuck with trying to figure out why Kyoko's soul didn't get gobbled up by the Eva like what happened with Yui.

What I'm going to do is try to come up with a way solve this.

Firstly- let's assume that the Evas did have souls of their own- after all, I don't see why they shouldn't. They were grown articifically, but if we were to assume that all of NERV/Gehirns meddling in them came after they were more or less fully grown and didn't interfere with the early stages, I don't see why they should be any different from any other lifeform.

So. We now have an Eva, with it's own soul- but lets not forget how different Evas are from humans- their mind/conciousness/soul will be radically different from a humans. Since synchonisation seems to create some sort of direct link between the minds of the pilot and the Eva, some problems might arise. The pilot will find themselves linked on a very immediate level with a mind incredibly- inconceivably- different from their own.

I do not think that it would be too much of a stretch to say that a forced interaction of this sort will seriously fuck up a dudes mind, possibly- probably- driving them crazy.

So, this offers a nice little way to solve Kyoko's CE, Yui's CE and why the Evas needed a human soul in the first place.

The soul in the Evas by the time their actually being piloted by the Children is neither the original "Evasoul" nor the soul or whoever was put into it. Rather, I am suggesting that the method used by NERV is not a simple "Take that soul and stick it in there", but instead is a process that merges the original soul of the Eva with the soul of whoever is plonked into it.

Yui's- Well, we see throughout the series that the soul inside Shogouki is a bit, well, mental. We know that Yui actively wanted to join the Eva and give up her physical form, so this caused her to tangify during the CE, which, had she not be tangified, would have just drivin her crazy.

Kyoko- Well, like I explained before. The CE and contact with such an alien mind drove her batshit insane. Cue OMF's scenario.


So. Um. Yeah. Cue accusation of overanalysis and pointing out the obvious holes in my theory that I didn't notice.

[DatDude]

What you looking for wasn't discribed enough in the series to get a clear idea.

[rb_182_]

I always hated how Eva didn't explain anything about souls. They just said Yui's soul was in eva 01. and Asuka's mom's soul was in eva 02. they didn't say whos soul was in eva 00. and the whole thing with Rei I didn't get either. Like your mind is the part of your body that remembers memories, etc. then when one Rei dies and they put her soul into another, how does she kinda remember things??

[Space Penis]

I always hated how Eva didn't explain anything about souls. They just said Yui's soul was in eva 01. and Asuka's mom's soul was in eva 02. they didn't say whos soul was in eva 00. and the whole thing with Rei I didn't get either. Like your mind is the part of your body that remembers memories, etc. then when one Rei dies and they put her soul into another, how does she kinda remember things??

Also note that I'm going with the idea that "soul" is referring to the entirity of a person conciousness, not just some bizzaro mystical quantity. Just bear with me for now.

Really, I don't see any reason to think that the soul is referring to anything else.

[Oblivious]

Personally, I am of the opinion that Evas possess their own unique Soul, since it fits in with the Manga(which shows explicitly that they do), which I also believe is ultimately reconciliable with the series. I am just too lazy to attempt to prove it.

Your emotions reside within your soul while your thoughts and memories reside in your body's brain, more precisely, your Ego.

Regarding that Soul ATF business... http://evageeks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=480&start=30

I have also read somewhere that A.T fields originate in the Soul. Kaworu said that it is the 'Light' of the Soul. Now, the word Light could mean more than one thing. It might not be refering to an EM field visible to our eyes. It could also stand for 'Hope' or 'Guidance', just to name a few. We do know that the Japanese and Chinese have some interesting metaphors in their language.

My country, Singapore, was occupied by the Japanese during WWII. They called it 'Syonanto' which means 'The Light of the South'. It was to be seat of Japanese power in South East Asia. Now they were not regarding my country as a wave emanation were they?

Therefore, my baseline is; there are many possibilities regarding what Kaworu said, therefore any fact or theory using his words as its main support are moot at best.

There you have it. The only piece of evidence that the Soul is tied to the ATF, AFAIK, are Kaworu's words. I have just shown that, at times, fanciful words should not be taken literally. Especially with someone like Kaworu.

So this means that it IS possible Kyoko's soul was swallowed.

The Evangelions are supposedly based on the human(by extention, Angel) genome. The Human Genome project played a part in this(As alluded to by Kaji in the Manga). AFAIK, the Human Genome Project did not have any metaphysical aspect regarding the manipulation of Souls. Any such technology is far beyond the ken of current technology in NGE.

I do not believe that lifeforms created by NERV were soulless. Was Dolly Soulless? Every living creature should have a soul simply because it is alive. Soulless living are Undead.

[Mr. Tines]

The Human Genome project played a part in this(As alluded to by Kaji in the Manga). AFAIK, the Human Genome Project did not have any metaphysical aspect regarding the manipulation of Souls. Any such technology is far beyond the ken of current technology in NGE.

Their Genome project included people working in this subject:



which almost certainly did pave the way to soul manipulation (such as transferring a soul from KFR to Rei III).

[Oblivious]

Hmmm. That slashes that then. At least now I know.

[rb_182_]

I always hated how Eva didn't explain anything about souls. They just said Yui's soul was in eva 01. and Asuka's mom's soul was in eva 02. they didn't say whos soul was in eva 00. and the whole thing with Rei I didn't get either. Like your mind is the part of your body that remembers memories, etc. then when one Rei dies and they put her soul into another, how does she kinda remember things??

Also note that I'm going with the idea that "soul" is referring to the entirity of a person conciousness, not just some bizzaro mystical quantity. Just bear with me for now.

Really, I don't see any reason to think that the soul is referring to anything else.

Yeah but when I think of soul, I think of someone's ghost basically. Like they show it when someone dies or is a ghost on a movie, tv show, etc. but in reality we don't know if human's even have a 'soul'. So in NGE I just picture someone's soul as their ghost. or a little blue glowing light like we see Yui as inside of Unit 01.

[Space Penis]

Personally, I am of the opinion that Evas possess their own unique Soul, since it fits in with the Manga(which shows explicitly that they do), which I also believe is ultimately reconciliable with the series. I am just too lazy to attempt to prove it.

Your emotions reside within your soul while your thoughts and memories reside in your body's brain, more precisely, your Ego.

Then why do Shogouki and Nigouki have at least some of the memories of Yui and Kyoko, if memories aren't part of the "soul" in the Evaworld?

Regarding that Soul ATF business... http://evageeks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=480&start=30

I have also read somewhere that A.T fields originate in the Soul. Kaworu said that it is the 'Light' of the Soul. Now, the word Light could mean more than one thing. It might not be refering to an EM field visible to our eyes. It could also stand for 'Hope' or 'Guidance', just to name a few. We do know that the Japanese and Chinese have some interesting metaphors in their language.

My country, Singapore, was occupied by the Japanese during WWII. They called it 'Syonanto' which means 'The Light of the South'. It was to be seat of Japanese power in South East Asia. Now they were not regarding my country as a wave emanation were they?

Therefore, my baseline is; there are many possibilities regarding what Kaworu said, therefore any fact or theory using his words as its main support are moot at best.

There you have it. The only piece of evidence that the Soul is tied to the ATF, AFAIK, are Kaworu's words. I have just shown that, at times, fanciful words should not be taken literally. Especially with someone like Kaworu.

So this means that it IS possible Kyoko's soul was swallowed.

Oh, wow. Kaoru is obviously not saying that the ATFs are literal light emissions of souls, but it's quite obvious that he's saying that souls are somthing incredibly important to the generation of an ATF.

And your tangent about Singapore is a total red herring. You seem to be thinking that since the Japanese referring to it in an obviously non-literal way, then we should just discard Kaoru's dialouge.

The Evangelions are supposedly based on the human(by extention, Angel) genome. The Human Genome project played a part in this(As alluded to by Kaji in the Manga). AFAIK, the Human Genome Project did not have any metaphysical aspect regarding the manipulation of Souls. Any such technology is far beyond the ken of current technology in NGE.

Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit. The Evas were based on Adams genetic information which happened to be very similar to a humans genome. You can't say that since the human genome project didn't have anything to do with souls, then NERV couldn't possibly have any methods to manipulate souls. It's an INCREDIBLE leap in logic.

[DatDude]

I always hated how Eva didn't explain anything about souls. They just said Yui's soul was in eva 01. and Asuka's mom's soul was in eva 02. they didn't say whos soul was in eva 00. and the whole thing with Rei I didn't get either. Like your mind is the part of your body that remembers memories, etc. then when one Rei dies and they put her soul into another, how does she kinda remember things??

Once you know how the trick works the magic is lost. Trust me, explinations never make anime better.

Its one of the things thats given eva its long lasting popularity.

[Space Penis]

I always hated how Eva didn't explain anything about souls. They just said Yui's soul was in eva 01. and Asuka's mom's soul was in eva 02. they didn't say whos soul was in eva 00. and the whole thing with Rei I didn't get either. Like your mind is the part of your body that remembers memories, etc. then when one Rei dies and they put her soul into another, how does she kinda remember things??

Once you know how the trick works the magic is lost. Trust me, explinations never make anime better.

Its one of the things thats given eva its long lasting popularity.

Are you, like, totally opposed to all forms of analysis of Eva? Cause it often seems like you are.

[Zuggy]

Genes/genetics in general do have something to do with souls, that being the connection between:

~CNS

~RNA (Messenger between CNS and DNA)

~DNA

Remember that magnets passing over copper usually equals electricity. Imagine 'reality' passing over your (astral?) CNS.

[DatDude]

I always hated how Eva didn't explain anything about souls. They just said Yui's soul was in eva 01. and Asuka's mom's soul was in eva 02. they didn't say whos soul was in eva 00. and the whole thing with Rei I didn't get either. Like your mind is the part of your body that remembers memories, etc. then when one Rei dies and they put her soul into another, how does she kinda remember things??

Once you know how the trick works the magic is lost. Trust me, explinations never make anime better.

Its one of the things thats given eva its long lasting popularity.

Are you, like, totally opposed to all forms of analysis of Eva? Cause it often seems like you are.

No, but I often see people trying to understand EVA buy taking it and reading into it a lot of crazy thing.

[rb_182_]

Well I don't try to overanalyse eva that's for sure. There were just a few things I didn't get about the show. But I agree that if I know about them, then it takes the fun and mystery out. and also I respect DatDude's decision not to overanalyse everything because everybody watches shows diferently. some people try to figure out everything way too hard, and some people take it at face value and just watch it as a show and not study it. I'm inbetween. I like to just watch it as a show, but also find a few answers on the forums too. :)

[DatDude]

I wish you two were here when me, and Reichu used to go at it. I used to think she looked to deep. Then I met a certain poster with the initails OMF. My eyes opened to the meaning of the word.

Not that I didn't learn a thing or two from chu, its just I think the work should stand alone. No scripts, no deleted scenes, no alternate endings, or original scripted lines.

Also, a writer writes to be understood. It makes no sence for Anno to make a show only he, and a handfull of others could get.

Do I miss stuff with this view point? Yes.

Do I miss the main plot elements, and overall message Anno was trying to get across? Not in my opnion.

[rb_182_]

I don't think Reichu has a choice but to analyse everything because she is doing the fan-geek commentary website. but I have the same view. You dont' have to know everything to like NGE. You can still understand it without going too deep. but sometimes it helps since there is alternate endings and director's cuts. etc.

[Mr. Tines]

I don't think Reichu has a choice but to analyse everything because she is doing the fan-geek commentary website.

I think the cause and effect ran the other way around - analysis first, to figure out what's going on; then commentary site (to counteract the imperfect audio commentary on the DVDs).

[rb_182_]

lol that makes sence. The commentary on the DVD is halarious. They don't even talk about the show and theorys they have or anything. Just about doing the voice acting. then when they start to talk about the show later on, they make up shit that has nothing to do with the show.

[Oblivious]

Personally, I am of the opinion that Evas possess their own unique Soul, since it fits in with the Manga(which shows explicitly that they do), which I also believe is ultimately reconciliable with the series. I am just too lazy to attempt to prove it.

Your emotions reside within your soul while your thoughts and memories reside in your body's brain, more precisely, your Ego.

Then why do Shogouki and Nigouki have at least some of the memories of Yui and Kyoko, if memories aren't part of the "soul" in the Evaworld?

You read the Manga do you? Explains it better than I shall ever. As for these memories, I would like evidence and sources please.

Oh, wow. Kaoru is obviously not saying that the ATFs are literal light emissions of souls, but it's quite obvious that he's saying that souls are somthing incredibly important to the generation of an ATF.

And your tangent about Singapore is a total red herring. You seem to be thinking that since the Japanese referring to it in an obviously non-literal way, then we should just discard Kaoru's dialouge.

I am sorry, you seem to think I have used absolutes in judging Kaworu, saying we should *discard* his words. I believe this is not the case, which is the whole point of that post.

Look at it again, what I meant was that Kaworu's words should be taken with skepticism. Not believed totally, but taken as a possibility. I showed another possibilty in which a word was a metaphor to better bring across my point.

Oh, and the word 'Moot' means arguable, which means there is a possibility.

Regarding that Soul ATF business... http://evageeks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=480&start=30

I have also read somewhere that A.T fields originate in the Soul. Kaworu said that it is the 'Light' of the Soul. Now, the word Light could mean more than one thing. It might not be refering to an EM field visible to our eyes. It could also stand for 'Hope' or 'Guidance', just to name a few. We do know that the Japanese and Chinese have some interesting metaphors in their language.

My country, Singapore, was occupied by the Japanese during WWII. They called it 'Syonanto' which means 'The Light of the South'. It was to be seat of Japanese power in South East Asia. Now they were not regarding my country as a wave emanation were they?

Therefore, my baseline is; there are many possibilities regarding what Kaworu said, therefore any fact or theory using his words as its main support are moot at best.

There you have it. The only piece of evidence that the Soul is tied to the ATF, AFAIK, are Kaworu's words. I have just shown that, at times, fanciful words should not be taken literally. Especially with someone like Kaworu.

You have also made the assumption that his words meant that the 'Light' was tied into Soul. The nature of a metaphor gives many possibilities, and though, I restate, I am not saying that is impossible, there are *many* other possibilities.

The Evangelions are supposedly based on the human(by extention, Angel) genome. The Human Genome project played a part in this(As alluded to by Kaji in the Manga). AFAIK, the Human Genome Project did not have any metaphysical aspect regarding the manipulation of Souls. Any such technology is far beyond the ken of current technology in NGE.

Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit. The Evas were based on Adams genetic information which happened to be very similar to a humans genome. You can't say that since the human genome project didn't have anything to do with souls, then NERV couldn't possibly have any methods to manipulate souls. It's an INCREDIBLE leap in logic.

Your second point was already conceded earlier, scroll up. Better luck next time.

Now on your first point. Yui states that Adam was 'The First Human', and that Evangelions are humans. The 'Leap' here is that it is not completely clear to you, is that though different in shape, Angels and Humans are the same thing.

Who was Yui? She is the Creator of the Evangelions.

After Shamshel*(the perfect sample), DNA analysis showed that Angel DNA fall within 99.98% similarity with humans.

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Garden/4989/text/Episode5.txt

Aside: Sure I've not been up to standard with my arguments recently but lighten up? I also don't see why you're trying so hard since what I've said fits in with your OP.

*TheBlueTree, thanks

[TheBlueTree]

After Sandalphon(the perfect sample), brainwave analysis showed that Angel brainwaves fall within 99.998% similarity with humans. This means we think the same.

Didnt they get that sample from shamshel? or was that just umm... I forget how to word it, but DNA structure or something of that sort. Yeah im pretty sure the "perfect sample" was shamshell, though they did try and capture sandalphon to study as they did shamshell (alive this time).[/quote]