Kyoko's Soul

[CJD]

So I was reading the T&A on Soul Divisibility (http://wiki.evageeks.org/Theory_and_Analysis:Soul_Divisibility) and I see that it asserts that Kyoko's soul was salvaged after her death and reunited with the portion in Eva 02. It's reasoning for this is

since her voice begging Asuka to “die with me” is heard alongside her otherwise encouraging words telling Asuka she is still alive.

I'm just curious, has there been any lengthy discussion on this? I never got that impression from the scene.

[Bagheera]

I'm just curious, has there been any lengthy discussion on this? I never got that impression from the scene.

Some, but not much. As with many parts of the wiki, the line you mention is sheer speculation. We actually don't have any proof that the fragments of Kyoko's soul were ever reunited.

As a counter-theory, consider this: her soul was never reconstituted. Unit-02 was made to operate using a partial soul, and this is why someone with Asuka's aptitude and training could only manage a fraction of what Shinji could with neither (since he could fully sync with the entire soul of his mother, while Asuka could only sync with a portion of hers). Even in Air the two still never achieved the lofty heights attained by Yui and Shinji. And note the parallel this suggests with Unit-00, which also houses a fragmented soul; as with Unit-02 and Asuka Rei has difficulty fully syncing with her Eva, and this despite the fact that she's syncing with a portion of her own soul!

As for the voice Asuka hears bidding her to die with her mother? That comes from within her. Those are her memories of her mother (who told her to do exactly that, as seen in Asuka's memories) and they're being shouted down by the part of Kyoko who truly loves her daughter.

This possibility is no more or less likely than the other, and there are probably other options to consider as well. We really don't know.

[symbv]

As for the voice Asuka hears bidding her to die with her mother? That comes from within her. Those are her memories of her mother (who told her to do exactly that, as seen in Asuka's memories) and they're being shouted down by the part of Kyoko who truly loves her daughter.

Could it be the crazy mother part of Kyoko vs the loving mother part of Kyoko?

[Ornette]

There may be a couple, this one shows up first with a quick search: http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic.php?t=2449

[Bagheera]

Could it be the crazy mother part of Kyoko vs the loving mother part of Kyoko?

Of course, that's the assumption the wiki makes. If both halves of her soul are in Unit-02's core that's what we would expect. But we don't know that that's what happened. Since we do know that Asuka's memories of her mother's suicide were brutally resurrected by Arael in the weeks preceding Air the possibility that we're looking at a conflict between the Kyoko in Asuka's mind and the Kyoko in the core of Unit-02 is just as possible.

Look at it this way: which fits the themes of NGE better? A conflict between the fragments of one soul, or a conflict between what one perceives to be real and what is actually the case?

But as I said, we don't (and can't) know.

[Sailor Star Dust]

I'm not sure what you mean that "we can't and don't know", when so many issues in Eva are implied instead of flat-out stated (even Yui's soul being within Eva-01, for instance).

It makes sense to me that the sane and insane part of Kyoko are conversing with Asuka at the bottom of the lake, considering the JSSDF/Harpy battle is when Asuka has the realization that Kyoko = Eva-02. And there are nice parallels of Eva-02 and debate of control in Air versus Eva-01 and control in Sincerely Yours, but that's another discussion. Makes a lot more sense for Kyoko to be speaking with Asuka in "real time" instead of some sort of flashback (which the Script would probably indicate, but to my knowledge it doesn't Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong). Or Kyoko's sane part being really there while the insane part is a "flashback" is picking and choosing which also doesn't work.

[Azathoth]

Look at it this way: which fits the themes of NGE better? A conflict between the fragments of one soul, or a conflict between what one perceives to be real and what is actually the case?

Those both fit kind of perfectly, actually.

[Bagheera]

Those both fit kind of perfectly, actually.

Well, I did say each was as likely as the other.

@SSD: If you're gonna go the implication route the partial soul theory serves it up to you on a silver platter. Don't forget that the only other place we've heard "die with me" is in Asuka's memories. When we hear it again does that mean crazy Kyoko is there, or is it a reference to Asuka's earlier flashbacks? Again, the implication goes either way (and as I said, the partial soul business ties up some important loose ends in the show, and has nice parallels with Rei and Unit-00).

Note that my argument here isn't "this is the superior argument" so much as "the Wiki is far too blaise on this subject, and it's asserting things as fact when they haven't been established as such." This isn't the first place it's happened, either.

[CJD]

Some, but not much. As with many parts of the wiki, the line you mention is sheer speculation. We actually don't have any proof that the fragments of Kyoko's soul were ever reunited.

As a counter-theory, consider this: her soul was never reconstituted. Unit-02 was made to operate using a partial soul, and this is why someone with Asuka's aptitude and training could only manage a fraction of what Shinji could with neither (since he could fully sync with the entire soul of his mother, while Asuka could only sync with a portion of hers). Even in Air the two still never achieved the lofty heights attained by Yui and Shinji. And note the parallel this suggests with Unit-00, which also houses a fragmented soul; as with Unit-02 and Asuka Rei has difficulty fully syncing with her Eva, and this despite the fact that she's syncing with a portion of her own soul!

As for the voice Asuka hears bidding her to die with her mother? That comes from within her. Those are her memories of her mother (who told her to do exactly that, as seen in Asuka's memories) and they're being shouted down by the part of Kyoko who truly loves her daughter.

This possibility is no more or less likely than the other, and there are probably other options to consider as well. We really don't know.

Actually that's the impression that I've always got. As you said, it's odd that Shinji and Eva 01 manage to achieve high levels of Synch rate, even early on, with such little training compared to Asuka. Not to mention that Eva 01 manages to go berserk multiple times, while we only see it from Eva 02 at the very end of the series, after Asuka realizes that her mother is in the Eva and regains her composure (Which raises her Synch rate, possibly even higher than she ever had before.).

As for hearing Kyoko say "Die with me", I felt that by overriding them, Kyoko in the Eva is breaking through Asuka's mental breakdown, which is also why we hear them so few compared to the reassurance.

[Reichu]

Note that my argument here isn't "this is the superior argument" so much as "the Wiki is far too blaise on this subject, and it's asserting things as fact when they haven't been established as such." This isn't the first place it's happened, either.

I think this is more an artifact of not enough people working on the Wiki than the Wiki intentionally trying to be biased. :p

[Bagheera]

I think this is more an artifact of not enough people working on the Wiki than the Wiki intentionally trying to be biased. :p

Probably true. I should get to work on that since I can edit the damn thing...

[Reichu]

Probably true. I should get to work on that since I can edit the damn thing...

Just don't exacerbate the problem in the process, because I'll catch you and give you a spanking you won't like. ;p

[Bagheera]

Just don't exacerbate the problem in the process, because I'll catch you and give you a spanking you won't like. ;p

Promise?

I'll be good, honest.

[Stryker]

Just don't exacerbate the problem in the process, because I'll catch you and give you a spanking you won't like. ;p

Bagheera won't, but I know someone who will (Hint: Erotic).

[Sachi]

I agree with Bagheera's stance. After her mindfuck with Arael, Asuka is strongly tormented by the memory of her batshit crazy mother, even driving her to possibly attempt suicide in that bathtub.

At the bottom of the lake in EoE, Asuka is still struggling with her trauma. The repeated line of, "Please die with me," is her memory of her mother asking Asuka to die with her just before she hung herself. To Asuka, her mother is still asking Asuka to die with her, and this torments her. However, the voice of Unit-02, the loving, maternal half of Kyoko, calls out to her until finally getting through.

[thewayneiac]

I agree with Bagheera's stance. After her mindfuck with Arael, Asuka is strongly tormented by the memory of her batshit crazy mother, even driving her to possibly attempt suicide in that bathtub.

At the bottom of the lake in EoE, Asuka is still struggling with her trauma. The repeated line of, "Please die with me," is her memory of her mother asking Asuka to die with her just before she hung herself. To Asuka, her mother is still asking Asuka to die with her, and this torments her. However, the voice of Unit-02, the loving, maternal half of Kyoko, calls out to her until finally getting through.

It's a severe violation of Occom to say that Asuka is hearing one real voice and one imaginary voice instead of one real voice saying contradictory things. It's never "in their heads".

Bagheera's theory isn't likely at all.

[Bagheera]

It's a severe violation of Occom to say that Asuka is hearing one real voice and one imaginary voice instead of one real voice saying contradictory things. It's never "in their heads".

How does that make sense given that so much of NGE is, in fact, in their heads? How is Occam satisfied when you have to make up events instead of referencing established material?

[Seele00TextOnly]

...

[esselfortium]

It's a severe violation of Occom to say that Asuka is hearing one real voice and one imaginary voice instead of one real voice saying contradictory things. It's never "in their heads".

Bagheera's theory isn't likely at all.

It's infinitely simpler and more in line with Occam's Razor than the theory that requires us to invent from whole cloth such concepts as "patchworking a soul together".

In any case, other than your insubstantial claim here, you haven't refuted anything of Bagheera's theory.

[Ornette]

IIRC, a lot of the original debate occurred before the CI was translated, so the notion that there was soul division was kind of a wild theory. The prominent belief was that something during the CE made Kyoko go crazy, after her death, she was stuck into Eva-02, and on we go. This is probably where the assumption that both voices were Kyoko in EoE came from. Later, the theory of soul division was introduced (by Wayneiac I think) that Kyoko lost half of her soul during the CE which was why she went crazy. The presumption that both voices were Kyoko's in EoE remained, and was still something most everyone believed, even people who didn't buy into the whole soul division stuff.

Later on, the CI finally got translated and to many people's surprise, the soul division stuff was backed up by it. I don't remember exactly when putting the other half of her soul into Eva-02 after she was dead was first proposed, but even after the verification of soul division in the CI, there was still that sort of presumption that both voices were Kyoko's.

Noting that there was no mention of putting souls back into Eva-02 in the CI, I don't have any problems with re-assessing the entire thing with soul division in mind from the start. The notion that there are 3 voices in that scene: Asuka's mumbling she doesn't want to die, Kyoko saying "You must live", and a third voice saying "Die for me!", whereas the Bochan Bird just has the last 2 as "other voice", could go either way.

The "Kyoko pushing the voice in Asuka's head away" doesn't work because the "other voice" starts off going "You're still alive, You mustn't die yet". It's not until the middle when there's some crazy laughing and the "other voice" starts going "Die for me!" and "Die!" at the end. Not sure why she'd start hearing her mother's voice in her head after her mother's soul in the Eva starts going on about how Asuka must live.

The other possibility is both voices are in her head, somehow. And when the other voice starts telling Asuka to die, Asuka strongly proclaims "I don't want to DIE!!", and this awakens Kyoko.