Should we count the three Reis as separate characters?

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Postby Seele00TextOnly » Mon May 23, 2011 1:58 pm

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Postby thewayneiac » Mon May 23, 2011 2:06 pm

View Original PostSeele00TextOnly wrote:You mean like this, right?


Similar but cooler. Ideally, her clothes would disapear during the transformation, but that probably wouldn't work with the shirt color change. Yui Flash!!!!!!
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Postby Kendrix » Mon May 23, 2011 2:09 pm

I dunno, it's a purple shirt, the outfits may represent different stages of Yui's life, or maybe it's sort of meant to be both of them in a way... I mean, would Anno really miss a chance for a horryfing transformation sequence?
I'd like to see that quote, tough, just for curiosity...
another interesting thing about that scene is she shadow symbolism already found in ep 15, more on that here. (Click the spoiler box at the buttom of it, the one titled "Then there's this)
For what it's worth, older drafts of EoE had Gendo tang normally with his LCL joining the pool in Terminal Dogma - perhaps they just decided on a more artistic, more emotionally-impacting method?
Also note the parallelism to Kaworu/episode 25!Shinji. EVA 01's hand is not a nice place to be...


...But nah, back to Rei.
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Postby CyberXIII » Mon May 23, 2011 2:24 pm

No, people here supported that Eva-01=Shinji idea too. Myself included.

And another thing I wanted to bring up supporting the separate character idea is their personalities.

Rei I was apparently a normal little girl before her death. She seemed quiet and blunt, but that was simply because she didn't know any better.

Rei II was the emotionless girl and the one everyone thinks of whenever someone mentions "Rei Ayanami". Later she gained more and more actual humanity and right up until her death became probably one of the least morally reprehensible characters in the whole story.

Rei III was a horse of a different color entirely. She was essentially a regressed, emotionally stunted Rei II with a even more tenuous grasp on sanity. Of course, realizing you're the physical incarnation of a god can do that to you.
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Postby Kendrix » Mon May 23, 2011 2:38 pm

Actually, Rei II was pretty much established as a Kuudere from the very start, episode 5 has her looking at Gendo's glasses as a source of comfort during the text/exhaling in relief afterwards, smiling thrice at Gendo or the thought of him, and showing normal "reaction things" like raising her head in surprise when her card doesn't work, looking mildly surprised and later irritated when she sees her keepsake on Shinji's face, she turns up to watch Shinji's EVA launching...
Thorough the show, she has distinctive body language (Like everyone else - this show has a huge lot of detail put into it) and we see her showing interest, likes and dislikes... even philosophic beliefs.

Rei II never was just as cold as her sucessor. And while no III is rather zombielike, most she actually shows in terms of emotions are cold suspiciousness and wrath, which is quite a contrast to Rei II's personality - she HAD a capacity for anger if someone insulted her loved ones (eps 5 and 16) but she was generally not a resentful person. She even tried to help Asuka who had always treated her like crap - heck, forget Asuka, she even showed pity for Armisael.

We never saw much about Rei I, but she seemed to have little problems with Red and she consistently has faint expressions (proof will be suplied if asked for)
Last edited by Kendrix on Mon May 23, 2011 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Seele00TextOnly » Mon May 23, 2011 2:39 pm

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Postby Kendrix » Mon May 23, 2011 2:41 pm

View Original PostSeele00TextOnly wrote:All of these personality shifts happen in normal people too depending on extreme events and circumstances. The body shift is inconsequential, the memory gaps are minor, and the psychological shifts are understandable and occur to plenty of the other characters. There is simply no ground for calling them different characters. The numbers all follow the same name. It's irrelevant; she's the same Rei.


Except its no gradual personality shift of sorts, its a radical, sudden change - Didn't you feel creeped out when Rei III first stepped on the screen and did not even act like she knew Shinji?
You said it yourself, the Memory gap is minimal, she would still remember what happened in eps 6 to 22.
She seemed to "know" who he is like its data in a computer, but shows no emotional response and she would have shown one if she was still the same person...
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Postby Seele00TextOnly » Mon May 23, 2011 2:44 pm

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Postby Kendrix » Mon May 23, 2011 3:02 pm

You can't compare that, I mean, those tie in with things/developements we saw before that, none of them suddenly completely ignored a guy they just gave their life for (She doesn't remember that but as the same person, she should have the feelings that led her to blow herself up in the first place. )


As for the afore mentioned difference in the way the eyes are drawn, look here. I know the drawing style values, I deliberately picked similar pics from scenes that were redrawn.

Rei II: (Note the "curved" line representing the upper lid)

SPOILER: Show
[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/820/15787920.png/]Image[/URL]



Rei III: They're more narrow, and the line is straight. She "properly" opens her eyes at times, but that's a notable event, this is their normal appearance. this consistently carries through the director's cut and EoE.

SPOILER: Show
[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/195/iiiol.png/]Image[/URL]
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Postby GasmaskAvenger » Mon May 23, 2011 3:27 pm

Kendix, I think that's a drawing discrepancy or was drawn slightly off model in one of the screencaps


the original series is BRIMMING with said moments of off modelness and such


edit: of course, she's probably displaying a different facial expression too but yeah
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Postby Kendrix » Mon May 23, 2011 3:36 pm

View Original PostGasmaskAvenger wrote:Kendix, I think that's a drawing discrepancy or was drawn slightly off model in one of the screencaps


the original series is BRIMMING with said moments of off modelness and such


edit: of course, she's probably displaying a different facial expression too but yeah


That why I picked two pics that were made in the same style/redrawn for the DC...
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Postby esselfortium » Mon May 23, 2011 5:01 pm

Different facial expressions are not indicative of a change in character. They are indicative of a change in facial expression. Rei's behavior is subtle, but she is clearly not a static character. She does not need to be replaced in order to warrant a change in expression, because she is not a mannequin.

I'm pretty sure you could find similar screenshots of different facial expressions for Shinji, or for Kaji, or for the kid with the ice cream who appears for 5 seconds in episode 13...

The arguments made in this thread seem to be reliant on the supposition that Rei must be a completely static character, by virtue of the argument that any slight change in behavior or emotion signals that she has become a completely different character. This is a huge disservice to her arc, and effectively robs it of any meaning. We see similar or even greater changes in Shinji, Asuka, Misato, Gendo, and most other major characters in NGE and other works of fiction, over the course of their lifetimes. Changing over time is indicative of character development (whether through trauma or otherwise), not character replacement.

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Postby child of Lilith » Mon May 23, 2011 5:15 pm

I've never seen any reason to see the three of them as being separate. They are all the same person as far as I'm concerned.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Mon May 23, 2011 5:50 pm

I see the three Reis as being different incarnations of the same character. (Lilith and any quantum physics is still the same character (Lilith when she is represented as Rei, that is), just a different aspect of Rei.)

This argument was brought up somewhere before; slightly different example using the "normal" humans (compared to the soul division of Kyoko and Rei) but we don't want to suddenly start labeling Shinji post-Episode 20 as Shinji-02 or post-Instrumentality Shinji as Shinji-03, respectively (or even post-Instrumentality Asuka as Asuka-02). :tongue:

Also: I personally see the Eva-01 chomping Gendo scene as Yui/Eva-01 (and Rei/Lilith and Kaworu/Adam) literally being there metaphysically speaking, BUT thematically speaking (perhaps this is how the Chronicle information should be read?), there's nothing wrong with thinking Eva-01 represents Shinji despite Yui being there. (Recall the scene in Episode 20 of LCL-Shinji imagining stabbing Gendo as it shifts from Shinji to Eva-01.)

Eva tends to have different angles or meanings behind it instead of just one, after all.
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Postby Reichu » Mon May 23, 2011 6:15 pm

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:(Recall the scene in Episode 20 of LCL-Shinji imagining stabbing Gendo as it shifts from Shinji to Eva-01.)

It's worth noting, however, that the image used in 20 was of Eva-01 as piloted by Shinji against the Angels (towards whom he sublimates his rage against Gendo). In EoE, the Eva-01 that appears after Yui changes into a purple turtleneck is a demonic being with green eyes, teeth, and skin exposed -- a clear callback to the awakened Eva-01 from episode 19, which represented the liberation of Yui's will. This along with the shirt-changing makes Chronicle's conclusion all the more disconnected from the actual film, in my opinion. I'm inclined to use Canon Override here.

@Facial expressions: What Kendrix didn't post was a cut (cuts?) of redrawn Rei from the chat-with-Armi scene that is stylistically the same as Rei 3 from later. And don't forget Rei 2 picking up the glasses in EoE...

I'm in the "fragments of same person" boat. Dividing Rei into different characters is a meaningless exercise. There IS continuity, just not of the same kind and degree as us normal people who aren't transferred between bodies and fractured/fused in the process.
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Postby Kendrix » Mon May 23, 2011 6:20 pm

I wasn't talking about the expression. i deliberately picked pics with similar expressions tzo highlight a subtle change in either drawing style or standart expression, but gah, forget it, that's a minor detail at best and by no ways my main argument.

The problem is that this is radically different from normal character development - You're talking as if i was suggesting she must be a different character after ep 6 or 15, which would be bullshit, but this is something different.
scenes where the three sort-of-converse or stand next to each other and that line from episode 25 at least make it valid to think about whether there is a difference. I mean, Rei is a clone of Yui and that doesn't automatically make her Yui, does it?
Yeah, there are other factor with the Reis, but it#s not something anyone here is pulling out of their butt, okay?

I think they're different EXACTLY because the person we saw for most of the series is a gradually changing individual and not a mannequin - for 23 episodes, you watch the protagonist get to know this person, she either reveals or develops a certain warmth about her, starts to look at people, gets nervours and blushes, grows attached to ppl...
And when the third one steps on the screen, all of that is suddenly gone, as if it all had never happened, or even worse than that. It's not even like she's returned to the beginning, there is even less humanity than in the beginning.
It's not that you see something previously established react to a weird event and bend or break under the pressure, Personality traits that were there are just gone, others that weren't there before are newly there.
There's some lingering Echo, but not much more... It simply isn't the same person. To me it's plainly obvious and also pretty creepy.
The script for her meeting with Shinji lampshades something being... off. ("Her eyes have gone cold."/lack of response... And yes, the latter is odd. Compare/contrast with several conversations Shinji started in eps 5,6, and 15, to name a few...)


also, the line from ep 25 is still there and very clear.
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Postby NemZ » Mon May 23, 2011 6:59 pm

Reichu wrote:I'm in the "fragments of same person" boat. Dividing Rei into different characters is a meaningless exercise. There IS continuity, just not of the same kind and degree as us normal people who aren't transferred between bodies and fractured/fused in the process.


Well of course they're (mostly) the same person in the same sense that you're sill the same person you were 7 years ago even though every cell in your body has been replaced since then. However I think you're unduly downplaying the evidence we have in the form of Asuka's mom that messing with a person's soul definately changes who they are in drastic fashion. Sure there's some overlap between each iteration but with these sorts of changes happening I think it's entirely valid to consider each a separate character, especially since that's how Rei herself seems to look at it.
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Postby Kendrix » Mon May 23, 2011 7:09 pm

It IS one of the ambiguous things/ also depends on how you personally define a person, I guess.

For what its worth, the Manga seems to treat them as separate/plays up the completely changed/ignoring ppl part/ has Shinji reflect on how she just isn't the same. (Meh could search for the pages but I'm probably not allowed to link them here... )
Of course, I'm the first to say that It's just his interpretaion/stuff is different in the Manga etc, but he may just have been told or played a role in deciding what it was actually meant to be like... It's no proof of any sort cuz alternate continuity, but it means the possibility is there (or that it was left so ambiguous that not even the production team knew...) since the Anime does have that line in ep 25.

Also, Rebuild (which of course, is an an alternate, but made by the same ppl, which may just allow us to maybe, just maybe guess at the maker's intentions) makes a big deal out of the "No, you're irreplacable!" part...
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Postby Reichu » Mon May 23, 2011 7:10 pm

NemZ: By "that's how Rei seems to look at it", are you referring to "we're all Rei Ayanami because other people call us that"? If so, I'm not sure how this supports the "different characters" interpretation. Rei is coping with a fractured identity, and the fear associated with Lilith's shadowy presence, and wondering how to define herself. It's already been established in NGE that personhood is generated through the interplay with other people, and Rei is able to assemble her fractured personalities under the umbrella of her Rei-ness the same way: because other people regard them as Rei Ayanami.

To a certain extent, Rei is being used by the narrative to question the nature and boundaries of "self" and how identity is determined, and it's for this reason that I think we'd be doing her an incredible disservice by treating her as anything less than a single character. Her collective, ambiguous nature is intrinsic to her conflict.

It requires interpretation to decide to split her up into multiple characters, but how does this move service further interpretation? What is there to be gained in understanding? It seems completely pointless to me.
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Postby Sachi » Mon May 23, 2011 7:13 pm

Now that I have time, I suppose I'll lay out my full opinion of this matter.

So far the argument in the defense of Rei having three separate identities relies on the assumption that the three have contrasting personalities, which I agree with to an extent but I wouldn't use it as the basis of my argument. It also relies on the assumption that each subsequent Rei starts off as a blank slate that merely contains data from the prior Rei (of which is frequently recorded in Terminal Dogma), and I disagree completely.

Yes, it would seem the memories from Rei II needed to be transferred from the Reiquarium (or wherever) into Rei III, and since the events that occurred just prior to Rei II's death obviously had not been recorded, Rei III has a gap in her memory. However, this does not apply to personality; if it did, Rei III would come out of the hospital as if the Armisael attack never happened.

In order to explain her personality, we must consider the characteristics of souls within the NGE universe. The clearest example of this is in Kyoko Zeppelin Soryu's character, of whose personality is clearly fragmented after the Unit-02 contact experiment. What does this say? Well, a lot of things, but the most relevant fact is that the personality is part of the soul, or is, at the very least, attached to it.

If coupled with the Rei I = Unit-00 theory, or even the FragRei = Unit-00 theory (of which Unit-00 is not necessarily Rei I, but simply another large fragment of Rei's complete soul), then we can explain much of the discrepancies of personality between each Rei we encounter.

This isn't to say, however, that this ruins Rei's overall character development. I think it's very interesting to note that, while Rei III seemed to develop a new personality, it conflicted with the personality of Rei II, primarily in the form of self-questioning. It's my belief that Rei III's personality is simply a result of the addendum to her soul, which she is confused by at first, but she is soon molded to her new traits and thus develops into what he see for these last few episodes; in other words, she was upgraded, not replaced.

I do think it's important to note the imagery in Gendo's final scene. Seeing the three incarnations of Rei standing side by side certainly leaves a lasting image in the mind. I interpret it as the a representation of the three parts of Lilith prior to Rei III's merging with Lilith in Terminal Dogma (the final "upgrade"). I think it parallels how Rei III and Kaworu appear to Shinji during Instrumentality and guide him on his journey to rejecting it in the end (Yui also appears at the end to give the final farewell, just as with Gendo, albeit in a much different manner).

I'm not too certain how to interpret these right now, but the parallels in these scenes are too good to ignore, though a split may be necessary to fully discussing it (if one doesn't exist already).
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