EoE question, but not that one

[DirtyCircle]

I have a friend, we never agree on anything especially EVA. Our arguments on EVA could probably be clocked in as going on for days. This question stems from one of those arguments:

To Older fans: How was EoE marketed over here in the States and what were your initial reaction to the film. Was it shaped by the evil-doery that the team that brought it over here did, whatever it was?

This question is being brought up because of a argument about Brina Palencia voicing Rei. While I don't think she gives a bad performance I have wondered aloud about why her and not bring back Amanda Winn-Lee. I believe the Palencia as Rei has been touched upon when it was announced, but I haven't been to the forum for a while and I don't know the current opinion on the matter.

Anyways, my friend is a huge Anti-Amanda Winn-Lee EVA fan. He rather brutally attacks her performance, translation and the translation team's handing of EoE. He claims the team propagated the idea that the film is a big "F- You" from Anno and co. He claims that anyone could of handled EoE and no one would not have this idea that it was a "F- You" to fans.

For a long time, I sort of saw it as a "F-you" because after we got such a confusing and complex series ending we get a EoE ending which again causes months of arguing and fustration. But after a while I grew to *hopefully* understand and appreciate the EoE ending like it should be. Am I alone in cursing the film before finally appreciating it? How much of the problem was the American production team's fault in this matter?

I quoted a review from a Japanese review upon release saying he thought that the people behind EoE didn't like the characters nor the story, but thats not what his is interested in. He wants older first-gen American fans, he is adamant that Winn-Lee and co. sabotaged EVA and I must prove him wrong.


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My friend's actual quote is as follows:

now i'm sure that people stateside might have taken the films as a "F--- You", but i don't think almost all of the first-run American fanbase would be accepting them as a "F--- You" if the redub crew didn't try to present it and promote it as such. now if you want to make a point of showing proof for an arguement, then by all means show me proof that the stateside fan-base was going to actually write-off the ending of the series and the original films as a "f--- you" if Lee and the redub crew hadn't gone around promoting it as such in each and every convention they appeared at in promotion of the series.

[TehDonutKing]

Amanda Winn-Lee DID sabotage Eva. If you want, I can find a list of things wrong with the movies' dub.

[tomrule123]

Put me in as part of an Anti-Amanda Winn Lee club. Did not like the Dub alternatives for EoE. AWFUL. I was glad to see she didn't help out with Rebuild.

[liquidus118]

Amanda Winn-Lee DID sabotage Eva. If you want, I can find a list of things wrong with the movies' dub.

If he doesn't want you to get it, I sure do.

[Stryker]

Amanda Winn-Lee DID sabotage Eva. If you want, I can find a list of things wrong with the movies' dub.

Maybe she did... but I like her voice better Brina's. Seems more.. solemn and mysterious then Brina's.

[tomrule123]

Maybe she did... but I like her voice better Brina's. Seems more.. solemn and mysterious then Brina's.

True... but if she does come back, SHE CAN'T HELP OUT WITH THE DUB SCRIPT. I will now allow her to continue this silly poppycock nonsense.

[Stryker]

True... but if she does come back, SHE CAN'T HELP OUT WITH THE DUB SCRIPT. I will now allow her to continue this silly poppycock nonsense.

No, of course. Let the translators do their job, while Amanda does hers.

[DirtyCircle]

Amanda Winn-Lee DID sabotage Eva. If you want, I can find a list of things wrong with the movies' dub.

No, feel free to. If there is a anything you can think of please put it. It would be very helpful in finding out if she and the others did create great atrocities to EVA as my friend (as the commentors so far) seem to feel. I am by no means a hardcore fan with extensive knowledge so I would like to learn more.

[thewayneiac]

No, feel free to. If there is a anything you can think of please put it. It would be very helpful in finding out if she and the others did create great atrocities to EVA as my friend (as the commentors so far) seem to feel. I am by no means a hardcore fan with extensive knowledge so I would like to learn more.

The most imfamous example is actually from Death and Rebirth not EoE:

In D&R the scene where Kaji is shot is followed immediately by the Scene from the Director's cut of Ep. 24 where Shinji tells Asuka that Kaji is dead. In the Japanese version they transition between these two scenes with the sound of Shinji's face being slapped by Asuka in place of the gunshot that killed Kaji. In the dub, Amanda Wynn Lee substituted a gunshot. This goes way beyond dubbing and alters a deliberate artistic decision made by the show's creators.

In EOE she added extra dialogue that wasn't in the original to make the soldiers more evil, "Hit 'em again", and cartoony sounding splat noises when people were shot in the head. She also apparently ordered the cast to deliberately mispronounce some of the names, added cursing that wasn't in the original, ect.

And that's just what I thought of off the top of my head. There's a lot more.

[AuraTwilight]

Must know more. I do remember the Kaji part, and her stupid, airheaded commentary. "It sounds like someone got slapped. "

[Sailor Star Dust]

AWL also got high at some anime convention and was playing strip poker or something. (I shit you not, it's in here somewhere: http://forum.evageeks.org/viewforum.php?f=23 )

[Sachi]

AWL also got high at some anime convention and was playing strip poker or something. (I shit you not, it's in here somewhere: http://forum.evageeks.org/viewforum.php?f=23 )

PICS OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

EDIT: Oh, never mind. I know which instance you're talking about.

[TehDonutKing]

-End of Evangelion had horid quality in the dub
-Misato says in Japanese: "The Angels are born from Adam, all other Earth based organisms come from Lilith." In English: Adam was born from Lilith, and so were the Angels, DERP DERP."
-Added a cartoon sound effect to the scene where Misato shoots the guy.
-Added the line, "Hit 'em again!" to a soldier.
-Horrible voice acting
-Watch the commentary. That will reveal how little they knew.

The added F-bombs were a welcome addition is you ask me, but whatever.

[MasterRah]

AWL also got high at some anime convention and was playing strip poker or something. (I shit you not, it's in here somewhere: http://forum.evageeks.org/viewforum.php?f=23 )

Just found the topic. Didn't know nudity was allowed here. Her vagina can clearly be seen in that pic posted in the topic. It isn't that in your face, but it's just there. To weird, and classless as well.

[Monk Ed]

Quick! Vulva! Vulva! Vulva or Reichu will swoop in on you with outstretched talons!

[Reichu]

Didn't know nudity was allowed here.

I guess if it's Eva-related...

Her vagina can clearly be seen in that pic posted in the topic.

Well, if somebody posted a photo from one of her gynecological exams, then it DEFINITELY has to come down.

[DirtyCircle]

I have seen EoE with the commentary its just been a while.

Anyways, like I said before I am not a hardcore fan and I try not taking fandom to the point of concerning myself with every detail. Not that they are insignificant I just prefer to try to keep a open mind and remember creative license and whatnot. Thus, why for me, the swearing and "Hit them again" line is fairly insignificant compared to just trying to consume EVA in it's entirety and understand it. Perhaps I'll have to rewatch it again though trying to hear the quality of the dub work though because I had previously never thought there was anything wrong with it.

And just a reminder, does anyone remember how EoE was intentially being sold over here?

On a completely different but far more important tangent though, I just have to say, after a bit I found and read the topic with the picture that was mentioned. I just can't remember anything from it before I opened the link to pics of Jessica Boone. Thank you for whoever posted that link!

[gatotsu911]

-End of Evangelion had horid quality in the dub
-Misato says in Japanese: "The Angels are born from Adam, all other Earth based organisms come from Lilith." In English: Adam was born from Lilith, and so were the Angels, DERP DERP."
-Added a cartoon sound effect to the scene where Misato shoots the guy.
-Added the line, "Hit 'em again!" to a soldier.
-Horrible voice acting
-Watch the commentary. That will reveal how little they knew.

You kinda repeated yourself with the first and fifth complaints, both of which are purely subjective. Personally I think the movie dubs were maybe 70-80% the best English voice acting out of the whole series (Spike Spencer, Allison Keith, Tristan MacAvery, Aaron Krohn, and Amanda and Jason Lee, especially, were all pitch-perfect in every scene), and about 20-30% "Who on earth thought this was acceptable?" (mostly with the secondary characters and extras).

In regards to Amanda Winn Lee's replacement by Brina Palencia in Rebuild, she herself has confirmed that Funimation did ask her to return, but she was unable to (most likely due to her dedicating her recent years to caring for her sickly son, which is a pretty damn good excuse if I've ever heard one).

The notion that The End of Evangelion was a "fuck you" to the fans did not in any way originate with AWL, or even Matt Greenfield - that one's been around ever since the movie was first released in Japan, and to this day you'll have a hard time getting a room full of people to agree on it. I strongly disagree with it myself, but whatever. (Also, I might add, the movie commentaries themselves do not actually say that this is the case, merely that some people have suggested it.)

Ironically, AWL claims to this day that she researched Evangelion meticulously prior to working on the movie scripts, out of a desire to do the films justice and please the fans. Which makes me wonder: does the backlash against the Manga dubs date back to their initial release, or is it a more recent phenomenon? I've only been on the Eva train for about 5 years, so I couldn't say. All I know is that I was largely unaware of the sheer level of vitriol directed at them until I came here.

I am actually a fan of AWL's scripting work, but I think her very liberal approach to translation - which works excellently in productions like Dead Leaves and Read or Die - proved to be massively hit-or-miss for Evangelion. Touches like the Precision F Strikes were brilliant, while the altered sound effects, Black Hyuga, and the transformation of the JSSDF soldiers from icy professionals to child-eating monsters were all inexcusable. While the thought process (or lack thereof) behind these particular decisions boggles the mind - especially since she really, sincerely seems to have wanted to please the fans - I still believe that in an industry full of people who are content with using lifeless translations as dub scripts, AWL is someone who can write dialogue worth a damn and actually cares about what she's putting out. I thought she handled the more intense, emotional scenes in the film - those in which feeling was more important than precision - beautifully. I just wish I could go back in time and get her to fix the rest.

@SSD: I find that entire thread to be in remarkably poor taste and am disappointed that you would bring it back to the forefront. I don't care if AWL personally insulted Eva and every person here, the kind of pure bile present in that thread is just sickening and reflects poorly on this community.

[symbv]

The notion that The End of Evangelion was a "fuck you" to the fans did not in any way originate with AWL, or even Matt Greenfield - that one's been around ever since the movie was first released in Japan, and to this day you'll have a hard time getting a room full of people to agree on it. I strongly disagree with it myself, but whatever. (Also, I might add, the movie commentaries themselves do not actually say that this is the case, merely that some people have suggested it.)

The idea came from Japan and to this day many fans were still angry with what Anno did to Evangelion. We could not tell how much (or whether) "fuck you" was intentionally put in by Anno. The whole exercise may have more to do with Anno dealing with his own depression and he tried to pull himself out by having everyone in Eva going through hell and the main characters like Shinji and Asuka brutalized. However, the part of showing the otakus in the theater and showing hate mails on screen was considered blunt way in Japan of telling the anime fans to "come on, get a life". It was particularly shocking for those most enthusiastic fans who went to the cinema as early as possible, without knowing any spoiler and probably queued for hours outside -- yes, people who were like me.

[gatotsu911]

That's my theory, basically - that the anger Anno expressed in the movie was directed more at himself than at fans. There was anger against the fans, too, but if he wanted to stick it to them directly he could have just as easily done so by not making the movie at all. Also, I recently learned (thanks to this very site!) that the letters flashed near the end are, in fact, only partially hate mail - some are actually letters of praise and encouragement! Really drives home the fact that the film is, fundamentally, about himself - his journey through depression and through the process of creating Eva, the experiences he had, the emotions he felt, and the conclusions he reached. It makes for a hell of an interesting contrast with Rebuild.

Also, relating to the question of how the movies were marketed here in the States - I recall reading a while back that Manga really put a lot of effort into hyping the films prior to their release, at least among the anime community. There was talk of giving them a theatrical release, but it fell through, as did their promises of a deluxe, feature-rich DVD release. Between spending a huge amount of money acquiring the license, splurging on the dub production (they recorded in three different studios in LA, Houston and New York!!), and hyping the films, I think they kind of bit off more than they could chew. Also, it's important to remember that Amanda Winn Lee was just one person - she was in charge of the dub production (and even in that she had assistance from other people) but that's pretty much it. Everything else was handled by Manga. She's sort of turned into a fandom scapegoat for everything anybody didn't like about the Manga releases, which isn't entirely fair.