I don´t get Formula One races.

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I don´t get Formula One races.

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Postby InstrumentalityOne » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:08 pm

All I see is just some guys driving around in circles.
A lot of people insist that it´s the greatest sport ever, so I´m clearly not *getting* it.

Do you guys *get* it?
If so, could anyone here explain what the fuss F-1 is about?

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Postby Ornette » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:14 pm

If you're not already into motorsports, then there's no chance you're going to get it no matter how much explaining is involved.

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Postby Allemann » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:15 pm

It's about driving skill.

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Postby Ornette » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:20 pm

View Original PostAllemann wrote:It's about driving skill.

Mostly engineering. While some of the drivers are arguably better than others, the level of driving skill in F1 is plateaued. You can put the winningest driver in all of F1 in a poorly developed car and they're not going to win no matter how good of a driver they are (see Alonso returning to a sub-par Renault team, or Schumacher's return from retirement into a struggling Mercedes team).

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Postby The Eva Monkey » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:34 pm

The Grand Prix is going to be in Baltimore this Summer.

I will be avoiding downtown like the fucking plague.
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Postby Ornette » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:41 pm

View Original PostThe Eva Monkey wrote:The Grand Prix is going to be in Baltimore this Summer.

I will be avoiding downtown like the rogering plague.

That's not F1, it's part of the Indy series in the states. They're both open wheeled cars but that's about where the similarities end. Indy was made to be low cost, while it costs roughly $500k to run an F1 car per lap.

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I don't get football

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Postby Azathoth » Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:46 pm

All I see is just some guys kicking a ball back and forth.
A lot of people insist that it´s the greatest sport ever, so I´m clearly not *getting* it.

Do you guys *get* it?
If so, could anyone here explain what the fuss football is about?


or find/replace with american football, baseball, rugby, tennis, basketball, hurling or golf or literally any other sport mankind has ever invented if you feel like it. In fact, why not:

I don't get anime.
All I see is just some 2D girls accidentally exposing their pantsu.
A lot of people insist that it´s the most moe medium ever, so I´m clearly not *getting* it.


If you don't "get" a premise, then how is a monotonous explanation of the premise going to make you "get" it.
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Re: I don't get football

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Postby toe mash » Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:21 pm

View Original PostAzathoth wrote:or find/replace with american football, baseball, rugby, tennis, basketball, hurling or golf or literally any other sport mankind has ever invented if you feel like it. In fact, why not:

I don't know about you, but at least with other sports I feel like I'm watching to see who's the better player. I don't get why racing is considered a sport, it's not like it's a physical thing anyway (inb4 someone quotes the exact technical definition of "sport").

It doesn't seem to be like a good way to check who's the best "driver", but I never thought about it the way Ornette said, so there is some point in explaining it I guess.

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Postby Ornette » Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:57 pm

View Original PostAzathoth wrote:or find/replace with american football, baseball, rugby, tennis, basketball, hurling or golf or literally any other sport mankind has ever invented if you feel like it. In fact, why not:

A better way to put it would be something like (hypothetically speaking):

I don't understand football (soccer), don't get why people play it nor why people like to watch it. Having someone explain to me why the World Cup is so great is going to be completely lost on me.

Replace football with "american football" and the "Superbowl", or "Ice hockey" and "The Stanley Cup playoffs", or "Baseball" and "The World Series", etc.


View Original Posttoe mash wrote:I don't know about you, but at least with other sports I feel like I'm watching to see who's the better player. I don't get why racing is considered a sport, it's not like it's a physical thing anyway (inb4 someone quotes the exact technical definition of "sport").

Contrary to what some believe, drivers have to be incredibly fit. Unlike cars people typically drive for everyday use, race cars are purpose built and have no driver assists. So you have an extremely stiff suspension that absorbs very little of the road (meaning any camber change or anything that isn't completely flat will require counter steering by the driver just to keep the car going straight), no steering assists (power assist to steering), no assists for braking (multi stage pistons), no nothing. It's all too heavy, so it relies on the strength of the driver to operate. On top of that, the physical toll of simply riding in a car requires strength to counter the forces of the car. A Formula 1 car pulls 5G's in every direction, constantly, all race, which lasts about an hour and a half to two hours. There are special harnesses that drivers train in that violently jolt around to strengthen the muscles needed to absorb up to 2 hours of 5G punishment.

Jeff Gordon, NASCAR champion, swapped places with Juan Pablo Montoya of the McLaren F1 team in a show called "swapping paint" where drivers from different types of racing series switch cars to get an idea of what it's like. Jeff Gordon is a pretty accomplished driver, but NASCAR is nothing like F1. A few laps in Montoya's McLaren and he was done, neck was destroyed because not strong enough, couldn't hit the brakes anymore because his left leg wasn't strong enough. Even if he had the strength, he'd still need the endurance to keep that up for up to 80 laps. Michael Schumacher, one of the winningest drivers in F1 history, retired a few years ago, when Felipe Massa had a freak accident where a suspension component fell off of a car in front of him and hit his helmet while he was going 150mph, causing him to miss the rest of the season, Ferrari wanted to bring Schumacher back. Having not raced for 2 years, he spent a month doing rigorous exercise regimen in order to be fit enough to actually drive a F1 car, after a practice session before a race weekend (under FIA rules, you can't drive the car that will participate in the race because this falls under "testing", so he drove the previous year's car), he wasn't strong enough to drive the car and his comeback was scrapped.

On top of requiring to be incredibly physically fit just to be able to drive one of these cars, at the level of F1, the concentration, inner-ear, reaction, and dexterity to be able to lap the cars around circuits the way they do. Technically, that's what it takes to even be able to drive them at all because you need to be going hard enough just to generate enough heat in the tires and brakes, before you can even generate downforce from the aerodynamics. If you're going any slower, you're going to crash (this is why all the drivers hate the safety car, going 90mph is too slow and incredibly unsafe for the drivers, in fact, it's what killed Ayrton Senna).

Speaking of Ayrton Senna, the greatest F1 driver of all time, take a look at his qualifying lap in Monaco: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkCyo24fABg (I know there's a better video of this famous qualifying lap but I can't find it on youtube right now). These cars were during the time when there were huge turbos in F1, and the cars had little downforce to keep the car in check. They were literally barely able to stay on the road, and you needed balls of steel to drive them.

Speaking of balls of steel, that's the 3rd thing racing drivers need. Their brains need to be wired (e.g. screwed up) in such a way that when normal people think "whoa, this is nuts, I've got to slow down", they think "awesome, I can go faster". For example, Robert Kubica vs Felipe Massa (in the red Ferrari) battle for position on the final lap of a monsoon of a Fuji GP in 2007: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh_6aCTuG3E#t=0m58s Keep in mind the driver's visibility is worse than the camera that we see because the camera is mounted high above the engine's intake, so the constant spray of water from your own front wheels isn't covering your view.

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Re: I don´t get Formula One races.

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Postby symbv » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:35 pm

View Original PostInstrumentalityOne wrote:All I see is just some guys driving around in circles.
A lot of people insist that it´s the greatest sport ever, so I´m clearly not *getting* it.

Do you guys *get* it?
If so, could anyone here explain what the fuss F-1 is about?


I don't get it either. It's just noise noise noise... and occasionally a car may overtake another car but usually cars are overtaken because they need maintenance...And once in a while I see some accident and car wreck but I know I should not be expecting it to happen to entertain me...

And precisely because formula car race is more about engineering, all car companies just want to throw tons of money at it so that they can use any trophy as marketing tool... and when there is talk about keeping the car development budget and waste of resource under control, those car companies always kick up fusses....

Seriously I once read something about the history of Formula 1 and was surprised to find that it was basically monopolized by this Bernie Ecclestone guy who controlled the whole thing through a very convoluted layers of cross-shareholding companies. At very top level Formula One is more like a one-man cottage industry...

Wait, wait, there is something I get... yes, something... I do get the Race Queens :lol:
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Postby Ornette » Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:20 pm

Bernie isn't any different than any commissioner for any major sports league. Aside from it being an international body, and the constructors and drivers having their own "union" that's also international, it's no different from any other major league sports (like the NFL, MLB, etc). He does a lot of bone headed things maybe, he holds the marketing rights for the sport, but without the drivers and the teams, he'd have nothing to market. 2 years ago most of the teams were going to bail on F1.

The lack of overtaking has always been an issue in F1, for the last 50 years or so, though it's gotten to the point where the rules are geared toward overtaking. This is what happens when you're at the top of everything, best drivers in the world, best engineering, most money (Toyota spent $900 million per year on its F1 program, didn't win anything at all, but still...) so compared to the feeder series like F2000, formula 2 or 3, the drivers don't make nearly as many mistakes, and the cars don't break nearly as much.

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Postby symbv » Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:31 pm

View Original PostOrnette wrote:Bernie isn't any different than any commissioner for any major sports league. Aside from it being an international body, and the constructors and drivers having their own "union" that's also international, it's no different from any other major league sports (like the NFL, MLB, etc). He does a lot of bone headed things maybe, he holds the marketing rights for the sport, but without the drivers and the teams, he'd have nothing to market. 2 years ago most of the teams were going to bail on F1.


What I see the main difference for Bernie is that he actually effectively *owns* the brand and the running of the races which is not the case for other major sports league. Blatter may be overstaying his welcome as president of FIFA but he was elected and will go at some point, and he did not own FIFA. Bernie was a very different story, and the fact that eventually those teams came back to F1 shows more the power of Bernie to call the shots as he knew the companies found the F1 brand name too attractive and the alternative too costly to build.
View Original PostOrnette wrote:(Toyota spent $900 million per year on its F1 program, didn't win anything at all, but still...)


One reason why I call formula car race the vanity sport of the motor car companies. The driver may get the glamor and glory on the trophy stand but everyone knows it is the car company that wins it...
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Postby Ornette » Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:01 pm

Those teams came back because Bernie caved. Most of the teams disagreed with the cost cutting measures because the teams weren't getting the kickback they wanted. When all you're left with is the 3 worst teams in F1, and the rest of the teams already started their own racing league, AND started making broadcasting deals, of course Bernie's going to cave.

At the end of the day, F1 is a lucrative sport, the amount of money poured into making it work and the money made from it is unparalleled in all sports. Schumi got paid 100 million pounds a year to drive for Ferrari, more than any athlete in any sport. It's even more lucrative with sponsors. Sure Bernie makes money hand over fist but comparatively to people like Roger Goodell, it's not that far off, even if the titles are CEO vs "Commissioner".

As for Toyota, they poured the most money into their team, yet they've never won a single race, ever. I think there's been a small handful of podiums, but in the 8 years that they were in the game, they've never won a single race.

Keep in mind this is different than something like an engine supplier. There are manufacturers that make chassis, engines, or other parts for F1 teams. There are regulations involved in this kind of participation, but a Honda engine in a McLaren car that wins a race isn't going to be the same thing as a team win.

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Postby The Eva Monkey » Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:03 pm

I like it when the cars crash into walls and explode.
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Postby Obstermaxmaster » Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:10 pm

View Original PostThe Eva Monkey wrote:I like it when the cars crash into walls and explode.


:pointup:
Pure entertainment.
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Postby Ornette » Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:11 pm

View Original PostThe Eva Monkey wrote:I like it when the cars crash into walls and explode.

You're thinking of NASCAR.

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Postby Obstermaxmaster » Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:21 pm

View Original PostOrnette wrote:You're thinking of NASCAR.

I always thought that Formual One and NASCAR races were the same. So what's the difference?
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Postby KnightmareX13 » Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:49 pm

View Original PostObstermaxmaster wrote:I always thought that Formual One and NASCAR races were the same. So what's the difference?

Nascar has more redneck fans than Formula one
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Postby Ornette » Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:49 pm

View Original PostObstermaxmaster wrote:I always thought that Formual One and NASCAR races were the same. So what's the difference?

One has walls you can crash into regularly, and the other does not.

But if you really wanted to know (and I suspect that you don't), NASCAR has its roots in regular production cars that anybody can buy. During prohibition in the U.S., the people who illegally ran alcohol had regular cars, but they souped them up so they were faster than the cops. Eventually, all of these people got together in an oval circuit and decided to see who souped up their car to go the fastest. NASCAR is mostly just racing on an oval circuit, sometimes there was dirt (or sand, like in Daytona). Over the years, the notion of "Stock Car" became a bit of an oxymoron. There's really nothing "stock" about a Ford Taurus SHO or an Impala in NASCAR. Everything is stripped down, to a skeleton that's not even a car chassis, there's an engine block that's been bored such that's it's not even the same thing as the namesake's engine except that's it's the same kind of metal. And the cars are very heavy, because an oval doesn't have any turns that require you to significantly slow down. The cars are made to do very well and be very competitive in this type of racing. I think it's boring but 25 million people in the states annually seem to disagree.

Formula 1 races on a variety of circuits, none of which are ovals. It's not based on V8 blocks for engines, it's not a tube frame with metal body cover, and F1 cars actually have to turn right. While F1 engines (in the last couple of years after the transition from 3L V10) are V8's, they're only 2.5L displacement engines. That's smaller than a V6 Honda Accord, or a Nissan Maxima, or a Mazda Rx7. But it revs easily to 19,000 RPM and generates all of its power at the high power band. Also being open wheeled cars, different from NASCAR, as well as being based on a formula, it generates enough downforce from it's aerodynamics that equals 3 or 4 times the weight of the car, through the front and rear wings, the underbody, the diffuser, etc.

The history of the 2 series vary wildy. They both had their share of wild designs, though. Like the Plymouth Superbird and the crazy designs Chaparrel threw into F1.

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Postby symbv » Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:16 am

View Original PostOrnette wrote:Those teams came back because Bernie caved. Most of the teams disagreed with the cost cutting measures because the teams weren't getting the kickback they wanted. When all you're left with is the 3 worst teams in F1, and the rest of the teams already started their own racing league, AND started making broadcasting deals, of course Bernie's going to cave.


With the extraorindary privileges Bernie was able to enjoy then I do not think he could end the dispute without conceding anything. But I doubt it actually cut much into his control. He is still the effective owner of the whole thing.

View Original PostOrnette wrote:At the end of the day, F1 is a lucrative sport, the amount of money poured into making it work and the money made from it is unparalleled in all sports.


This is something I do not quite get. Where does the money come from? The car companies put in millions of dollars but how do they get money in return? Not award money I am sure. The TV broadcast rights and the sponsorship (not coming from car companies) amount to that much?

And I always think NASCAR a vulgarized version of formula one. What rednecks enjoy doing....
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