Synch / Asuka & 02 / Etc.

[nomis1242]

Just for background, my personal belief is that pilot feel the pain of their Eva's a bit like a phantom limb. Say you poked Eva-01 in the eye: Shinji would squeal from his perceived pain, but nothing would have physically touched his eye.

Obviously there's "some" of the clutch strenght being translated to the pilot: but is it supposed to be scaled down?

Yeah, when I first saw it, I also thought some mystical force was grabbing his neck. But now I dismiss it as either
a) stylized animation or
b) Shinji tensing up in response to his perception that he is being strangled.

[Azathoth]

Huh? That's the effect of hi-sync combat. We see this many times over the course of the series (culminating in Asuka's very real injuries as a result of her wounds from the artificial Lances of Longinus in EoE).

It remains extremely unclear if that's an effect of the Lances or of synchronization.

[Bagheera]

It remains extremely unclear if that's an effect of the Lances or of synchronization.

The actual wounds are the result of the Lances, but I'm not clear on how synchronization could fail to be involved in some fashion.

[Azathoth]

The actual wounds are the result of the Lances, but I'm not clear on how synchronization could fail to be involved in some fashion.

If, for example, transferring the Eva's wounds to the pilot is a function of the Lances.

It's worth noting that in episode 08, Shinji and Asuka achieve heretofore unheard-of levels of synchronization in Unit 02, yet neither of them show any signs of injury from the teeth of Gaghiel which are even at that time penetrating 02's midsection.

[Bagheera]

If, for example, transferring the Eva's wounds to the pilot is a function of the Lances.

Does that make any sense in the context of the show, though? I really can't see why they would do that, or why they would exactly mirror synchronization so thoroughly.

It's worth noting that in episode 08, Shinji and Asuka achieve heretofore unheard-of levels of synchronization in Unit 02, yet neither of them show any signs of injury from the teeth of Gaghiel which are even at that time penetrating 02's midsection.

And then we have all the other examples which show the opposite (most notably the battles against Bardiel and Armasael). It's clear the pilots feel pain when the Evas are damaged and that synchronization has physical consequences. They're just worse in the case of the Lances (either because of Asuka's sync rate at the time -- likely among the highest we've seen -- or because of some property of the Lances, or both).

It's fair to say it's probably not just synchronization, and available evidence indicates that that's likely the case. But the claim that synchronization is not involved at all is just as extreme, if not moreso.

(Personally, I think it's the result of Asuka's high sync rate working in tandem with the Lances' anti-AT field properties. Take either effect out of the equation and the end result is much less severe.)

But this is veering off-topic, so.

[Azathoth]

Does that make any sense in the context of the show, though? I really can't see why they would do that, or why they would exactly mirror synchronization so thoroughly.

During piloting of an Eva AT field of the pilot and the mother/resident soul merge at least partly. It's implied that higher synchronization entails higher degree of merging. Lances of Longinus are capable of destroying AT fields. AT fields determine bodily shape for the Eva - ergo for the pilot also. Mind you there's plenty of other things which can destroy AT fields also, such as the JSSDF's wave motion cannon or whatever the fuck it's called, my memory is betraying me. Simply that Lances are giant magical phalli of selfhood-destruction and are therefore better at it.

And then we have all the other examples which show the opposite (most notably the battles against Bardiel and Armasael). It's clear the pilots feel pain when the Evas are damaged and that synchronization has physical consequences. They're just worse in the case of the Lances (either because of Asuka's sync rate at the time -- likely among the highest we've seen -- or because of some property of the Lances, or both).

Perhaps more relevantly, notice that while Asuka is caused visible and agonizing pain by Unit 02 being devoured by MPEs she doesn't seem to sustain any actual wounds from it, as opposed to Unit 02 being Lanced through the head (translating to a less severe version of same injury) and Lanced through the arm (translating to an equally severe version of same injury) and then Lanced in every other available part of the body (leading to death). Clearly the MPEs don't do damage on that kind of level or she'd be dead long before "korosu korosu korosu".

Armisael is directly invading Unit 00 (=Rei) so it's not clear to me that that's comparable. Bardiel choking does seem to suggest though that apparently Bardiel's AT field is running roughshod over Shinji's - makes sense.

[nomis1242]

Yeah we're going well off-topic here, if the mods would like to split this thread.

During piloting of an Eva AT field of the pilot and the mother/resident soul merge at least partly.

Is there any material to support this theory? I can't think of any (not saying it isn't a plausible theory though)

Perhaps more relevantly, notice that while Asuka is caused visible and agonizing pain by Unit 02 being devoured by MPEs she doesn't seem to sustain any actual wounds from it

+1

...as opposed to Unit 02 being Lanced through the head (translating to a less severe version of same injury) and Lanced through the arm (translating to an equally severe version of same injury)

I don't see any evidence of physical injuries on Asuka (just the blackening around her eye, which could be from exhaustion/depression/etc).

Armisael is directly invading Unit 00 (=Rei) so it's not clear to me that that's comparable.

+1

Bardiel choking does seem to suggest though that apparently Bardiel's AT field is running roughshod over Shinji's - makes sense.

Sure, it can fit in with your "AT field merging" theory, but I don't think it can be used to justify the theory.

[Reichu]

Color me braindead from academics, but what's actually being debated here, and what does it have to do with LCL?

BTW, Azathoth, one reason why Asuka might not have been affected by the disembowelment is that there was no power going to synchronization at the time; the fact that she felt anything at all is pretty damned weird. (Shinji being affected by Zeruel's stabby attack in 2.0 after 01's power runs out is similarly weird.)

[Bagheera]

BTW, Azathoth, one reason why Asuka might not have been affected by the disembowelment is that there was no power going to synchronization at the time; the fact that she felt anything at all is pretty damned weird.

Yeah, but you've seen my theory on that. If Asuka was the dominant partner in a berserker event from the get-go she can sync while her Eva's out of power just as Yui can continue to operate when Unit 01's out of power. Asuka just doesn't have the juice to turn the high sync into action (not until it's too late, at least).

I still wonder what would have happened if she hadn't been hit with lances; if they hadn't fucked her up, maybe she could have kept on going forever, eh?

[Reichu]

Oh dear, we're gonna go THERE, are we?

- Hypothesis, not theory. ;p
- If Asuka is the dominant one, it's not really a berserker event, is it? (The concept of semi-berserk exists as of 2.0, but I don't know if anyone wants to apply that backwards.)
- Synchronization is a process that involves lots of technical systems and energy. If the Eva isn't supplying the energy for it, how do you expect the pilot to be able to? (Asuka feeling 02's pain at that time could be explained as something possibly transcending synchronization as it's usually considered, though.)
- I'm not sure how to interpret "Asuka just doesn't have the juice to turn the high sync into action" or "she could have kept on going forever".
- What are you and Azathoth arguing about?

[Bagheera]

Oh dear, we're gonna go THERE, are we?

- Hypothesis, not theory. ;p

If I ain't submitting it for publication it's a theory. :)

- If Asuka is the dominant one, it's not really a berserker event, is it?

That's a matter of semantics, isn't it? I say it's a berserker event if it exceeds operational limits, no matter who's in charge.

- Synchronization is a process that involves lots of technical systems and energy. If the Eva isn't supplying the energy for it, how do you expect the pilot to be able to? (Asuka feeling 02's pain at that time could be explained as something possibly transcending synchronization as it's usually considered, though.)

Exactly so. She does it because she's that damn good. She opened her heart to Eva and WHAM! This is the result. Her timing is just...unfortunate.

- I'm not sure how to interpret "Asuka just doesn't have the juice to turn the high sync into action" or "she could have kept on going forever".

Well, she was speared with a Lance right as her power went out, so who knows what might have happened if she'd been hit with normal weapons? If the Lance hadn't messed with her AT field...

- What are you and Azathoth arguing about?

Someone brought up sync in the context of buffering the pilot, and the topic is talking about LCL doing the same. But there was a mixup, and someone assumed they were talking about the same thing when the one was psychological while the other was physical. And things meandered and here we are.

It will make perfect sense if you just split this part into one of the innumerable "Asuka and Kyoko in EoE...man what?" threads.

[Azathoth]

Is there any material to support this theory? I can't think of any (not saying it isn't a plausible theory though)

It's mostly me assuming shit/fanwanking but that seems to me to be what's suggested by the effects of hypersynchronization: Shinji's ATF is so highly synchronized to Yui's that his physical form is no longer sustained and his soul becomes a part of her form.

I don't see any evidence of physical injuries on Asuka (just the blackening around her eye, which could be from exhaustion/depression/etc).

Huh? After Unit 02's head gets impaled by the MPEs, Asuka's left eye is never seen again; not only that, but blood is visibly spraying onto her lap from the socket - it's a little hard to notice since the plug is so dark. I don't have the movie available to me right now but from memory - during the "I'll kill you" scene, where she has her left hand balled up to cover the wound, you can see blood coming out between her fingers. So she's bleeding, and bleeding a damn lot - although clearly not as much as Unit 02 is.

It's a perplexing question which I guess could only be fanwanked by saying that the LoL(s) do +1 damage or that her sync ratio is fluctuating wildly: if Asuka was literally sustaining the wounds of Unit 02, she'd be dead already. The first Lance goes clean out the back of Kyoko's skull through the brain, after all - and even after that, Asuka would be dead again when the MPEs got the munchies. Hence my fanwanking.

Sure, it can fit in with your "AT field merging" theory, but I don't think it can be used to justify the theory.

No, you're right - I was trying to say that the Bardiel scene is the biggest complication to the theory that the Lance is just better at hurting the pilot. I don't have a real explanation for it, either: you could make the case that Shinji's (and therefore also Yui's) AT field is collapsing under the stress of Shinji's will to death, thereby allowing Bardiel to fuck with Shinji's physical form, but that seems like a stretch to me.

---

Color me braindead from academics, but what's actually being debated here, and what does it have to do with LCL?

I don't remotely know. I guess we jumped from "y pilots no fall out of chairs" to "y pilots get chocked by angels" to "Lances are cool". Because really, what thread can't be improved by the tangential discussion of enormous two-pronged god penises.

(Shinji being affected by Zeruel's stabby attack in 2.0 after 01's power runs out is similarly weird.)

Yeah well. Sync rate in Rebuild is kind of bullshit, as far as I can tell. Shinji's hands are apparently burned so badly by Sahaquiel's corkscrew wristblades (or whatever the fuck those things are, I've watched the movie at least five times in its entirety by now and I still can't visually parse half the Sahaquiel battle) that he has to wear bandages, yet Unit 01's fucking arm being severed does nothing but make him mad? For that matter, Mari's glasses explode from sheer bad temper on her part? As far as I can tell, NGE was generally more interested in pilots being injured when it makes for good drama than when internal logic dictates it, and Rebuild doesn't even pretend it's interested in anything but the drama.

I still wonder what would have happened if she hadn't been hit with lances; if they hadn't fucked her up, maybe she could have kept on going forever, eh?

Well, no, not unless Kyoko had the brains to obtain an S2 engine (apparently not). Eventually, the MPEs would have mutilated Unit 02 as effectively as she did them, even if their swords couldn't magically change form.

[Reichu]

That's a matter of semantics, isn't it? I say it's a berserker event if it exceeds operational limits, no matter who's in charge.

I guess it depends on what the show thinks a berserker incident is. EoE doesn't take a stand on the Asuka/02 thing one way or another. Hyuga asks if the Eva is berserk, but he doesn't say it is. Also, "berserk" doesn't mean much if there isn't the implication of the Eva being out of control; if the pilot has full control, that implication isn't really there, though I guess you can hope for the contrary. :p

Exactly so. She does it because she's that damn good. She opened her heart to Eva and WHAM! This is the result.

This seems a bit too fanboyish for me to take seriously. "That damn good" doesn't really explain anything, and "she opened her heart to Eva (therefore ~)" is a bit of a one-sided interpretation. Kyoko is the one who went to her, and Asuka accepted.

(BTW, I'm not sure why it's so important that Asuka be super-cool-totally-in-charge-awesome during that final battle. EoTV made it pretty clear that as long as you're an Eva pilot, you're relying on Mommy for your sense of personal worth and identity, which, unless you don't think the message is universal to NGE as a whole, is going to be a significant limiting factor on how super-cool-awesome Asuka's last stint in Eva-02 can be.)

Shinji's hands are apparently burned so badly by Sahaquiel's corkscrew wristblades that he has to wear bandages, yet Unit 01's fucking arm being severed does nothing but make him mad?

Hmm, I'll have to think about that one. Don't think too much about the Sahaquiel battle, BTW, since a lot of it is a huge visual cheat. (Did you see the thread about that?)

For that matter, Mari's glasses explode from sheer bad temper on her part?

I got the impression that it had something to do with stress induced by proximity to Zeruel's first-degree ATF forcefield. Or something along those lines.

[Bagheera]

I guess it depends on what the show thinks a berserker incident is. EoE doesn't take a stand on the Asuka/02 thing one way or another. Hyuga asks if the Eva is berserk, but he doesn't say it is. Also, "berserk" doesn't mean much if there isn't the implication of the Eva being out of control; if the pilot has full control, that implication isn't really there, though I guess you can hope for the contrary. :p

Well, not like people can't go berserk as well. :)

This seems a bit too fanboyish for me to take seriously. "That damn good" doesn't really explain anything, and "she opened her heart to Eva (therefore ~)" is a bit of a one-sided interpretation. Kyoko is the one who went to her, and Asuka accepted.

Accepting is what opening one's heart is all about, neh?

And yeah, it's fanboyish. I admit it. But it's also consistent. :)

(BTW, I'm not sure why it's so important that Asuka be super-cool-totally-in-charge-awesome during that final battle. EoTV made it pretty clear that as long as you're an Eva pilot, you're relying on Mommy for your sense of personal worth and identity, which, unless you don't think the message is universal to NGE as a whole, is going to be a significant limiting factor on how super-cool-awesome Asuka's last go in Eva-02 can be.)

There are a few reasons for it:

It shows that Asuka's training really was worth something, since she's managed to do something no other Eva pilot has ever done.

It shows us that Asuka's identity isn't fundamentally flawed, which gives her hope for recovery post-EoE.

It brings Asuka's arc to a satisfying conclusion, since she comes to terms with the loss of her mother and reaffirms her identity and sense of purpose.

And it's just plain satisfying to see her kicking tail, and to know that she's doing it legitimately and not because of some plot device, even though we know it will end badly. It doesn't matter because that five minutes is still made of pure win.

So, lots of reasons.

[Azathoth]

Hmm, I'll have to think about that one. Don't think too much about the Sahaquiel battle, BTW, since a lot of it is a huge visual cheat. (Did you see the thread about that?)

Yeah. The fight is kind of ridiculous even from an internal standpoint (Asuka's googly eyes in particular make me think this) and I have to wonder if it isn't intended at least partly as a parody of traditional "talking is a free action" mecha battles, since apparently as long as they jabber at each other they're immune to such things as, you know, gravity.

[nomis1242]

[previous tangent]

It's mostly me assuming shit/fanwanking...

Cool, thanks for explaining.

Huh? After Unit 02's head gets impaled by the MPEs, Asuka's left eye is never seen again; not only that, but blood is visibly spraying onto her lap from the socket... you can see blood coming out between her fingers...

Whoops, I missed the blood somehow. Or perhaps I repressed the memory because it doesn't fit with my "eva = phantom limb pain theory for the pilots!

Well, no, not unless Kyoko had the brains to obtain an S2 engine (apparently not). Eventually, the MPEs would have mutilated Unit 02 as effectively as she did them, even if their swords couldn't magically change form.

Agreed.

About the Rebuild stuff being mentioned, I thought we should treat it as a separate story, cos there's heaps of contradictions with EvaTV/EoE? (spoiler tags if replying, please. I haven't seen any Rebuilt yet!)
[/previous tangent]

Anyway, don't mind me, carry on folks. The sync and LoL theories being thrown around are really interesting.

[Reichu]

About the Rebuild stuff being mentioned, I thought we should treat it as a separate story, cos there's heaps of contradictions with EvaTV/EoE?

Well, yeah. Standard disclaimers apply. (I think I included one, at least.) As long as you aren't combining elements that only exist in one continuity or the other under the pretense of trying to coherently explain something, you're usually safe. Compare and contrast isn't a taboo thing.

Well, no, not unless Kyoko had the brains to obtain an S2 engine (apparently not).

I guess by Bagheera's reckoning, it would be explicitly Asuka who lacked the brains, despite knowing the harpies had S2 Engines. (And if she knew about that and the Spear of Longinus, how could she not know about Eva-01's little dinner party?) Whoops? (What was that about being "that damn good"?)

With Kyoko, brains might have nothing to do with do with it, given her split personality.

"Die with me!"
"Don't kill her! ...Wait, am I talking to myself again?"
"Yes we are, precious..."
"Do we still want Asuka to die?"
"First, we can fights with her... THEN, she can dies with us... Yesssss..."

[Bagheera]

I guess by Bagheera's reckoning, it would be explicitly Asuka who lacked the brains, despite knowing the harpies had S2 Engines. (And if she knew about that and the Spear of Longinus, how could she not know about Eva-01's little dinner party?) Whoops? (What was that about being "that damn good"?)

Tch. Do remember the bit about a spear to the eye, dear.

I don't know that an S2 engine is especially relevant here, anyway. Yui didn't need it to go operational after he power had run out, after all; she just needed it so she could do her harpy dance once the things had had their way with Asuka. If Asuka had managed a true berserker state she could probably just ignore the things and start crushing cores.

With Kyoko, brains might have nothing to do with do with it, given her split personality.

"Die with me!"
"Don't kill her! ...Wait, am I talking to myself again?"
"Yes we are, precious..."
"Do we still want Asuka to die?"
"First, we can fights with her... THEN, she can dies with us... Yesssss..."

"Mama! Stop talking to yourself and look at me!"

"Oh my. That's very impressive dear!"
"Yes it is! You're not like that other girl at all, are you?"

<cough>

Actually, came across an interesting theory on Kyoko's doubletalk recently: The voice saying "Die with me"? That isn't Kyoko. It's Asuka's memory of Kyoko talking to the doll. The actual Kyoko, the real one, is shouting it down and telling Asuka to live.

Not enough there to say either way, IMO, but I like it.

[Reichu]

Do remember the bit about a spear to the eye, dear.

What about it?

BTW, I'd somehow managed to collapse Fuyu and Asuka's lines for a moment there. Asuka only knew the Eva Series was completed, not about the S2 Engines. Whoops? :3

There is probably a good, solid upper limit to how long an Eva can move on ... whatever the hell Yui used those three times (glycolysis?). If there weren't, nomming Zeruel probably wouldn't have been necessary.

And again, I really, really think you're misappropriating "berserk" here. Yeah, normal people can go "berserk", but, since the piloted Eva state is the normal, preferred one, a berserk (bousou="out of control") Eva is by implication NOT being controlled explicitly or exclusively by a pilot. It's not like Eva-01 was "berserk" in episode 03 just because Shinji went off his nut for a while. "Berserk" also does NOT = "moving without power"; berserk Evas sometimes DO, but sometimes they're using the power supply, too.

I don't really buy the idea that only the voice saying "Die with me!" is a memory. There's no difference in presentation from the rest isolating it specifically as a "memory". And more to the point, why would Kyoko be telling a memory to not kill Asuka? ("Korosanaide", "Don't kill ~", I think it was.) Shouting down her loony side makes a wee bit more sense.

[NemZ]

I agree that pilot synch seems to involve to some degree the pilot's ATF resonating with the evas, thus damage carries over at high synch, albiet in lessened form.

If anything I believe Kyoko has so oversynched in EoE that she's piloting Asuka rather than the other way around.