Evangelion Unit Production...?

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Evangelion Unit Production...?

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Postby Norsehound » Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:49 am

All right, I know that SEELE authorized the construction of a number (16?) of Evangelions for the purpose of setting off the Third Impact (and fight the Angels I suppose). But I have some other questions regarding the whole of Evangelion production...

With Eva 00 being the prototype (to test the theory of Eva construction), 01 being the "key" to starting instrumentality (and thus the most important Eva), I wonder what the purpose(es) of Units 02, 03, and 04 were in the scheme of things.

I ask because they aren't harpies, and of course in EOE the harpies are needed for 3I. 02, 03, and 04 don't have wings and aren't armed with heavy lances. They aren't even "Production" versions, since Asuka's bears little functional and aesthetic similarity to the harpies. Even units 03 and 04 show SOME degree of serial production since they look alike!

One explanation I can think of is was that SEELE allowed the first few Evas into NERV's hands to keep them away from utilizing the prized harpies. Unless they also intended to use Eva 02, 03, and 04 for initiating the third impact, had things gone according to (their) plan?

Second I had some curiosity about how America got to produce two uniquely different units from the rest of Evangelion production, and what the Americans were intending to do with them? Were they approved (publicly) on some assumption that the angels might attack somewhere other than Tokyo-3? Was there ever a concern for a "national arms race" of Evangelions, and by manufacturing them world-wide attain some level of power-balance?

I mean, because I hear that Eva unit 03 was shipped to Japan ONLY because unit 04 vanished in a large puff of smoke, I have to wonder what would have become of the twins if that didn't happen. New pilots and off to Japan when...what? Unit 03 looked pretty complete when they shipped it off- if it was intended to be sent to Japan anyway why did the US wait until unit 04 disappeared?

I'm sorry if I've overlooked anything in the wiki, but I thought I'd ask the question since working on Wreckage has made me think about things like how the various nations would have perceived Eva construction.

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Re: Evangelion Unit Production...?

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Postby Jornophelanthas » Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:25 am

View Original PostNorsehound wrote:All right, I know that SEELE authorized the construction of a number (16?) of Evangelions for the purpose of setting off the Third Impact (and fight the Angels I suppose). But I have some other questions regarding the whole of Evangelion production...

With Eva 00 being the prototype (to test the theory of Eva construction), 01 being the "key" to starting instrumentality (and thus the most important Eva), I wonder what the purpose(es) of Units 02, 03, and 04 were in the scheme of things.

I ask because they aren't harpies, and of course in EOE the harpies are needed for 3I. 02, 03, and 04 don't have wings and aren't armed with heavy lances. They aren't even "Production" versions, since Asuka's bears little functional and aesthetic similarity to the harpies. Even units 03 and 04 show SOME degree of serial production since they look alike!

Unit-00: Prototype
Unit-01: Clone of Lilith, and may serve as backup for Lilith in initiating Third Impact. (Note that 3I in EoE actually used both, without anyone meaning to.)

So, about Units 02, 03 and 04. In my opinion, they served a number of purposes:
1. Battling Angels (and being more or less expendable);
Note that Unit-02 was specifically outfitted for combat, much more so than Unit-00 (which had only light armaments) and Unit-01 (which did not have any weapons built into its armour). Unit-02 was the most effective combat unit of all three operational Evangelions, at least in theory, and it is thus likely that its main purpose was to fight Angels.
Units 03 and 04 were never seen in action, so we can't derive much information from these. (Remember that Unit-03 was hijacked by Bardiel upon its first test activation, meaning that it may not have been outfitted with weapons, and if it was, the Angel didn't need/use them.)
Also, note that SEELE never seemed overly concerned about the loss of Units 03 and 04, and was perfectly willing to destroy Unit-02 in EoE. In other words, they were not needed for their master plan. Thus, expendable.

2. Developing new technology to be used in MP EVAs;
We know that Unit-02 was outfitted with more advanced weapon technologies than Units 00 and 01. We don't know much about the capabilities of Unit-03, though. However, we do know that Unit-04 blew up mushroom-cloud-style in an attempt at testing its newly developed S2-engine, which was a technology that was later implemented successfully in the MP EVAs (and acquired in a different manner by Unit-01).
Additionally, Gendo's and Ritsuko's efforts in developing the dummy plug system (based on Rei) was also copied in the MP EVAs, only using Kaworu-based dummy plugs.
In short, I believe the non-MP Evangelions were also used as test cases to develop new technologies that would be utilized by the MP EVAs.

3. Serving as a backup for the MP EVAs in initiating Third Impact.
This one is a bit of a gut instinct (or guess) from my side. Since any Evangelion unit (except Unit-01) is an Adam-clone, in theory, any set of 12 Evangelions (except Unit-01) could perform the "sacrament" that the MP EVAs did, if equipped properly (i.e. S2 engine, dummy plug, fake Lance). As it was, SEELE was 3 MP EVAs short, as they were forced into starting earlier than planned, and they had only 9 out of 12 MP EVAs ready to launch.

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Postby Frozzy » Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:35 am

View Original PostNorsehound wrote:?

Second I had some curiosity about how America got to produce two uniquely different units from the rest of Evam? Were they approved (publicly) on some assumption that the angels might attack somewhere other than Tokyo-3? Was there ever a concern for a "national arms race" of Evangelions, and by manufacturing them world-wide attain some level of power-balance?

I mean, because I hear that Eva unit 03 was shipped to Japan ONLY because unit 04 vanished in a large puff of smoke, I have to wonder what would have become of the twins if that didn't happen. New pilots and off to Japan when...what? Unit 03 looked pretty complete when they shipped it off- if it was intended to be sent to Japan anyway why did the US wait until unit 04 disappeared?
Slightly off topic to the thread but
I'm sure that units 03/04 would have been stationed in America to combat any angel thereat, Also i'm sure the Vatican treaty limited each country to two operational Evangelions each Thats why NERV had to seal one of their evas when unit 03 arrived.
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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:58 pm

View Original PostJornophelanthas wrote:3. Serving as a backup for the MP EVAs in initiating Third Impact.
This one is a bit of a gut instinct (or guess) from my side. Since any Evangelion unit (except Unit-01) is an Adam-clone, in theory, any set of 12 Evangelions (except Unit-01) could perform the "sacrament" that the MP EVAs did, if equipped properly (i.e. S2 engine, dummy plug, fake Lance). As it was, SEELE was 3 MP EVAs short, as they were forced into starting earlier than planned, and they had only 9 out of 12 MP EVAs ready to launch.

Actually two MP EVAs (05 and 06) were used to repair 00 and 02 but this happened when there were still Angels around and they were the top priority, I don't exclude that you could be right about the back-up.
View Original PostFrozzy wrote:Slightly off topic to the thread but
I'm sure that units 03/04 would have been stationed in America to combat any angel thereat, Also i'm sure the Vatican treaty limited each country to two operational Evangelions each Thats why NERV had to seal one of their evas when unit 03 arrived.

It's possible that they were stationed there for that purpose but if it was really the case then it was only a political/official decision (it's mentioned that the Americans pushed to build 03 and 04), Seele was probably pretty sure that all Angels would move towards Neo Tokyo 3 since Lilith is there, having EVAs stationed elsewhere would be meaningless (if not as back-up of the ones stationed in Japan or to use them for the Instrumentality).
Anyway the Vatican Treaty wasn't mentioned in the series and NERV in the series had 4 EVAs during a brief moment when 03 arrived (so we can't even suppose that there was a similar agreement but it wasn't mentioned).
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Postby MugwumpHasNoLiver » Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:43 pm

View Original PostHyper Shinchan wrote:Actually two MP EVAs (05 and 06) were used to repair 00 and 02 but this happened when there were still Angels around and they were the top priority, I don't exclude that you could be right about the back-up.


I always got the impression that the original Evas 05 and 06 were meant to look more like Evas 02-04, but were scrapped partway through production in favor of the Harpies, which I've always thought were made as cheaply and quickly as possible precisely because the other production models were already damaged or destroyed. I imagine that if Evas 05 and 06 weren't exploded or crushed, then Evas 02-06, the original line of "Production Models" would have been used with a similarly designed 07-13. Seele pretty much threw up their arms and said "Fuck it, they keep exploding, lets make plastic bird things because they're cheaper and faster!"

So yeah, I think 02, 03 and 04, were originally intended for use in Instrumentality, and the Harpies were just an improvised plan B.
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Postby Jornophelanthas » Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:50 pm

I think it's more likely that any technology that SEELE wanted implemented in the Evangelions they needed for Human Instrumentality had been developed to sufficient levels.

Once they had that, they no longer needed the earlier units, and could start producing the MP EVAs, with the earlier units serving as backups.

The MP EVAs were equipped with state of the art Angel technologies, though, so I don't buy your argument that they were cheap, inferior products. Remember that Asuka didn't beat them in the end because of their S2 engines, their lances. The only thing that Unit-02 had that outstripped the MP EVAs was a human pilot.

So yes on the rethinking of the Evangelion production line, but no on the improvisation argument.

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Postby Sachi » Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:06 pm

So, as it has been established, Unit-00 is a prototype, and Unit-01 is a test type. Units-02 through -04 were the grand Production models designed for actual combat. For the sake of Instrumentality, though, Units-05 through -13 were mass produced, and equipped for the purpose of initiating Third Impact.

A conversation between Misato and Ritsuko in episode 17 (or 18) implies that the U.S. had demanded the rights to develop their own Evangelion, which may have also been the case for Unit-02 being developed in Germany. (The conversation then leads to how the Americans want nothing to do with the activation test, and send Unit-03 off to Japan.)

Regarding the ultimate purpose for each Evangelion, it's pretty simple to surmise that several Units were expendable, and several were designated to fight the Angels. I agree that each Adam-based Unit had the potential for starting Third Impact, but only the Mass Produced Evas were used in the end.

View Original PostFrozzy wrote:Also i'm sure the Vatican treaty limited each country to two operational Evangelions each Thats why NERV had to seal one of their evas when unit 03 arrived.

There's no such treaty within the original NGE universe. The Vatican Treaty is a new concept introduced in NME.
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Postby Allemann » Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:12 pm

What's the difference between a prototype and a test type?

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Postby Sachi » Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:17 pm

I'm assuming the Prototype is pretty much "LOL, LETS SEE IF WE CAN DO IT" and the Test Type is "LOL, WE CAN DO IT, BUT LETS SEE WHAT WE CAN ADD TO IT". Basically, the Test Type is the Unit designated for tests and experiments, rather than for combat, which obviously didn't go as planned.

Or you can go the route that the Test Type is more or less the "experimental" Evangelion, which considering its origins, is true.
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Postby Jornophelanthas » Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:26 pm

Plus, both GEHIRN/NERV and SEELE needed to find a unique designation for Unit-01, which was not Adam-based, but Lilith-based.

Which is of course why Yui chose to perform a contact experiment with Unit-01: Unit-01, while still a backup to Lilith, is the least expendable of the expendable Evangelions.

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Postby Allemann » Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:32 pm

View Original PostJornophelanthas wrote:Plus, both GEHIRN/NERV and SEELE needed to find a unique designation for Unit-01, which was not Adam-based, but Lilith-based.


I think at that point in the story Eva-01 was still a clone of Adam (but I digress). Anyway, there's something that's been bugging me. If Unit-01 was already built when Shinji was a boy, shouldn't the entire Eva series be complete by 2015? Why the long wait between starting constructing them again?

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Postby Sachi » Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:43 pm

I'm somewhat inclined to believe that Unit-01 hadn't been completed by the time of Yui's contact experiment in 2004, and that several more years of work were needed to have it ready for operation. Unit-01 never had a formal activation test, while Unit-00's was held a mere few weeks before the events of episode 01.

If it is true that the contact experiment is held before the completion of the Unit, this would be in line with Unit-00's resident soul being that a portion of Lilith's soul extracted from Rei I, who had died in sometime between 2005 and 2008. It would also be in line with the date of Kyoko Zeppelin Soryu's contact experiment and death in 2005.

With these three being the basis of some sort of timeline between contact experiment and Unit completion (and really, only Yui and Kyoko can be used as evidence, since Rei I is just a theory), then this would explain the long gap between roughly 2004 and 2015.
Last edited by Sachi on Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby MugwumpHasNoLiver » Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:44 pm

View Original PostAllemann wrote:If Unit-01 was already built when Shinji was a boy, shouldn't the entire Eva series be complete by 2015? Why the long wait between starting constructing them again?


Seele would probably have trouble pooling their resources without the constant threat of angel attacks to motivate their investors. People are constantly complaining about all the money it costs to manufacture and maintain an Eva; about how its bankrupting countries and there are rival corporations and blah, blah, blah. Gehirn was probably stretching their budget to the limit to just make the test type and prototype. Once Seele could just say "We need TWELVE friggin Evas or the world is going to fucking end, bitch!" there would be less hesitation from everyone, and it would be easier to get the money. Not to mention that back then, when the first Evas were being made, the whole operation was a secret, Gehirn wasn't public knowledge, and there was that cover-up. Remember, the Harpies were made all over the world. It would be exceeding difficult to attempt something of that scale in secrecy.
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Postby Jornophelanthas » Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:49 pm

View Original PostAllemann wrote:I think at that point in the story Eva-01 was still a clone of Adam (but I digress).

I don't count "the writers were sloppy" as an argument for anything. I only look at the finished product.

View Original PostAllemann wrote:Anyway, there's something that's been bugging me. If Unit-01 was already built when Shinji was a boy, shouldn't the entire Eva series be complete by 2015? Why the long wait between starting constructing them again?

Unit-01 was partly grown out of Lilith's body, but still attached to it, when Yui went inside. This could be seen in a screenstill somewhere.

And Evangelions are not so much constructed, as they are grown. Since Adam was reduced to a tiny embryonic being after Second Impact, you may reckon it can take a while to grow something from that, especially given that Adam was not cooperating. This was "Project E", which was executed by NERV's predecessor GEHIRN.

GEHIRN was shut down and NERV founded to replace it some time later, when Rei I had already been around for a while. (Naoko Akagi died on the day before NERV was officially founded.) We can assume that this marked the day that Unit-00 had been successfully grown to a state where it could maintain its own life. (Note the many failed Evangelion spines down in Terminal Dogma.)

It was not until years later that the Evangelions became operational. The reason for this was, I think, twofold:
1. They needed to grow their bodies to maturity.
We don't know how long this could take.
2. Technology needed to be developed to actually operate them:
- entry plugs
- body armor / restraints
- weaponry
- power system
Remember, all that NERV had at that point were a couple of naked, soulless Evangelion bodies, and the MAGI. Hardly enough to battle Angels.

Also, the MP EVAs worked on S2 engines, so the didn't need the power cord. The S2 engine was not made available to Evangelion technology until AFTER Unit-04 blew up. This was during the series.

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Postby Norsehound » Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:16 pm

Maybe the delay could be explained that they wanted Eva01 to be fully functional/separated from Lilith before proceeding with the series?

Actually two MP EVAs (05 and 06) were used to repair 00 and 02 but this happened when there were still Angels around and they were the top priority, I don't exclude that you could be right about the back-up.


Is that a direct quote from the series? I seem to recall Misato mentioning spare parts for units 03 and 04 being used to repair Tokyo-03's units, with no mention of scrapping others for this purpose.

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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:49 am

View Original PostNorsehound wrote:Is that a direct quote from the series? I seem to recall Misato mentioning spare parts for units 03 and 04 being used to repair Tokyo-03's units, with no mention of scrapping others for this purpose.

Of course it is a direct quote, 02 and 00 were repaired using 05 and 06 parts after they were heavily damaged while fighting Zeruel; in fact this could be a partial explanation for the lack of 3 units when they started Instrumentality.

Episode 22 OA ADV's Platinum (around 4:30):
Image
Image

It's mentioned while Hyuga tells to Misato that the mass production has been started so it's unlikely that these two units (05 and 06) weren't "Harpies".
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Postby Legendary » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:57 am

Except in the Proposal there were plans for at least one other regular Eva. And, of course, using parts doesn't mean using entire Evas.

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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:18 am

View Original PostLegendary wrote:Except in the Proposal there were plans for at least one other regular Eva. And, of course, using parts doesn't mean using entire Evas.

But you'll have to regenerate them again ex novo and it could require a significant amount of time and resources, enough to delay the construction of additional units.
And I don't understand what is the point with the Proposal; if you want to assume that EVA 05 in the series was a regular unit then you'd have that EVA 00 and 02 have been repaired using parts of a production model and a mass production model (it doesn't change the fact that Production Models have been repaired using Mass Production Models, thus MP served as backup of the regular units); also it doesn't really fit with the mention of the starting of the mass production and the huge amount of money that is being used in that last part of the story (they say that 05 and 06 were being built, they have not been completed yer, it'be quite weird that they were building one final Production Model and a brandnew MP Model).
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