Anno: "[EoE] gives the same end as the TV series"?

[gwern]

From http://eva.onegeek.org/pipermail/oldeva/1998-June/016008.html

-> Well Anno has said that EoE "...gives the same end as the TV series, only from a differant perspective." So they pretty much can co-exist with eachother giving them the same conclusion. Don't forget the TV series ends in 2016, not 2015 as the Movie does. Perhaps this is what *will* be. I realize that this has nothing to do with the post, so I'll drop it and go on to what does.

Brendan/Evaotaku nor anyone else in the June 1998 emails seem to give any source, and my googling failed to turn up anything; offhand, I don't recognize it from any existing translated Anno statements.

Does anyone know the source for this? (I thought briefly that he might have been quoting a previous June email from Patrick Yip using the word 'perspective' in a similar concurrency assertion, but Yip didn't say 'gives the same end as the TV series'.)

I've emailed the addresses I've found for Brendan (<evaotaku>, <bjamieson>, <bjamieson17>, <bjamieson>), but who knows whether they still work or whether he remembers.

[Xard]

If this is true Concurrency theory has finally become undeniable truth

[The Eva Monkey]

Is Brendan citing or quoting something? Is it from Gendo Ikari's FAQ?

http://www.therossman.com/evafaqs1/

[Kendrix]

I'm not believing this without a very, very believable source.

[Jayfive]

Ill take any theory as long as its not the stupid 'EoE was made solely and completely to piss off the people who complained about EoTV' one.

[gwern]

If this is true Concurrency theory has finally become undeniable truth

Maybe not undeniable (what is in Eva interpretation?), but it'll be a major feather in concurrency's hat. As I favor concurrency, I am very interested in confirming or disconfirming this quote...

Is Brendan citing or quoting something? Is it from Gendo Ikari's FAQ?

Please don't link that shite. Google didn't turn up anything, as I said, and it has That Site indexed (as I know to my sorrow). I checked a couple pages on there now and didn't see any matches for 'same end'.

Further, I would be *very* surprised if Brendan was using it; in June 1998 and the previous months, there had been considerable flaming of That Site on the EML, with no one defending it as accurate.

I'm not believing this without a very, very believable source.

Using a double standard there? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, but this is hardly an extraordinary claim - it is suggested by Occam's Razor and believed by much of the fandom.

EDIT: I'd like to remind people that Concurrency has been rehashed endlessly already. Please don't comment unless you have something new to say about a possible source for this quote, contacting Brendan, or ruling out possibilities. Saying why you like both endings isn't helpful.

[Kendrix]

Ill take any theory as long as its not the stupid 'EoE was made solely and completely to piss off the people who complained about EoTV' one.

I wasn't suggesting that either. I see both endings as great pieces of Art (tough I somewhat prefer EoTV because of it's philosophical content - not to say that EoE has none, the ones from EoTV just... spoke to my soul because of the kind of person I am.(This is not to claim I'm 'deep' or anything - just a personal taste thing. I just love ep 25)

However, Concurrency remains a theory, (admittedly a plausible one) untill there's a sourced statement from Anno.

My own theory is that the endings share some similarities (as a huge chunk of 25 was already written before they went for the 'abstract' option), but that it diverges somewhat.
Like... the difference between the Series and Rebuild. Some common plot points, it will probably also end with TI being rejected, but it diverges the more it advances.
This is of course, ALSO just a theory untill there's a source.

[TehDonutKing]

it is suggested by Occam's Razor .

I beg to differ.

[Eva Yojimbo]

I beg to differ.

Yeah, I would agree here. I think given the radical ostensible differences in the two, it's more natural to think they're different endings. The similar patterns only begin to emerge and become obvious upon analysis. Quite frankly, I don't think this quote (even if confirmed) is telling the majority of the fandom anything they don't know. The only posters still against concurrency have already admitted to having a strong bias against it for reasons that have nothing to do with the actual in-series evidence.

[Kendrix]

The only posters still against concurrency have already admitted to having a strong bias against it for reasons that have nothing to do with the actual in-series evidence.

Er.... WHEN?
When I said that concurrency is admittedly plausible, I meant that I can see where the concurrentialists are comming from/that they're not simply making this up, but I still disagree/see clear differences, the greatest being that EoTV shows Gendo's instrumentality.
Of course, the method of presentation is different, but this is hardly the only difference.
IF a sourced statement would tell me I'm wrong, then I'm simply wrong and would have to rethink my interpretation, but as far as there isn't one, my interpretation is a) perfectly valid and b) seems to be the right one to me,
None of us has proof, other than that based on interpretation - There are MANY things in EoTV that could point towards EoTV being Gendo's intrumentality - The part where he actually appears and explains his version, Misato calling what Shinji is seeing "Your father's work", some scenes that could suggest that Misato physically met Ritsuko or Gendo, Rei's simple "Yes, Sir." and instrumentality starting right afterwards - EoE Rei III is the same as Anime Rei III, so she still hates Gendo, the latter seems to comply resignatedly, and of course the 'thank you, my father' at the end.

[Azathoth]

Er.... WHEN?

He's sniping at NemZ and Tines. Both of whom generally admit that they prefer EoTV's happy end not to be sullied by the shitstorm of EoE.

[NemZ]

So I'm guessing nobody read Gwern's plea to keep this a strictly fact-based endeavor?

[Mr. Tines]

for reasons that have nothing to do with the actual in-series evidence.

Nothing in-series except the increasing discrepancies between the details of the narrative -- from the DC material added to fit the broadcast series to the new concluding episodes, to the contrast between Shinji as everyman representative of billions and Shinji who uniquely has a trapdoor to ring zero of Complementation available.

They are the same to the extent that something apocalyptic goes down at NERV and Shinji has to go through some psychodrama; and that they are about there being better things to do than stay a man-child stuck in your parent's basement (or equivalent)

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

I'm still confused over this:

Don't forget the TV series ends in 2016, not 2015 as the Movie does.

I thought both EoTV and EoE occurred after the year change from 2015 to 2016.

[Number 44]

I'm going off my unreliable memory here, if facts to the contrary are posted, I can delete this post.

Don't forget the TV series ends in 2016, not 2015 as the Movie does.

We know for sure that Instrumentality was still taking place in 2016, as the text in episode 26 tells us.

However, even in EoTV it's pretty clear it started directly after the events of episode 25, which is assumed to be in 2015.

My suggestion is it is IMPOSSIBLE to tell how much time passes during Instrumentality! Whether in EoTV or EoE we have no clear way to mark the passage of time in the world outside Instrumentality!

I'm not saying concurrency is fact, I'm saying that the 2016 information given in EoTV doesn't prove a difference, and should not be used to dispute concurrency from now on.

[Kendrix]

My suggestion is it is IMPOSSIBLE to tell how much time passes during Instrumentality! Whether in EoTV or EoE we have no clear way to mark the passage of time in the world outside Instrumentality!

I've read somewhere that EoE occurs on the night from the 31. December 2015 to the 1. January 2016, but I've got no source except TV Tropes to confirm it XD
Anyone know more about this?

I don't think the timeframe is the difference, tough....
It's REALLY impossible to tell from anything except cue cards/supplemental informations...

PS:I always give PPl the advice to watch EoE before EoTV - On one side, Shinji's state feels more natural if you saw ep 24 just before it, and on the other, it's easiert for you to tell what happens in EoTV if you have EoE to compare it to,(It also opens your eyes for the differences) and EoTV cheers you up afterwards XD

An intresting matter where I'm not sure yet, is whether the "Congratulations" scene happens after or before Shinji surfaces... THAT he eventually surfaces should be quite clear... (at least in my opinion)
On one Hand, it happens after he affirms his individuality/realizes that he wants to live, and the "stage world" = Instrumentality disapears here/he finds himself surrounded by others once again, but on the other side, Yui is shown to be present, and she departs later. (The "Good Bye mother") caption.... The "good bye mother" might be meant in a methaphorical sense here instead of her literally departing (He's not a kid anymore/not dependant on her anymore) - Either way, with EoTV being as surreal as it is, there's no way of telling whether the congratulations scene is "real" or not... Half of 25 was contructed similarily, before instrumentality had even started...
Were they all realy present in some way, or just the parts of Shinji they represent/the concepts they represent for him? Was Yui only present in a "methaphorical" sense?
I tend towards "Everyone awaiting Shinji just after he surfaced", but the Yui thing bugs me...

[Azathoth]

I've read somewhere that EoE occurs on the night from the 31. December 2015 to the 1. January 2016, but I've got no source except TV Tropes to confirm it XD

TVTropes full of shit as usual. EoTV uses the "January 1 2016" title card to evoke obvious images of fresh start, appropriate to Shinji's delusional euphoria at the end, but there's a reason that it's not in EoE, whose point is that fresh starts aren't generally as fresh as they look. However given that it's fairly well accepted that 25 and 25' both take place on December 31 2015, I don't see why it's impossible for at least part of EoE to take place on Jan 1.

But of course we have no idea how time passes in Instrumentality in either of its incarnations, there's no reason One More Final can't be taking place in the year 2525 for all we know.

PS:I always give PPl the advice to watch EoE before EoTV

gahhhhhhh what

On one Hand, it happens after he affirms his individuality/realizes that he wants to live, and the "stage world" = Instrumentality disapears here/he finds himself surrounded by others once again, but on the other side, Yui is shown to be present, and she departs later.

Concurrencywise of course she hasn't yet departed at this stage where Shinji has the omedetou revelation that triggers his "but that's not right". It's all a little weird temporally; the "stage world" obviously corresponds to the playground scene in EoE in some way, but then suddenly Shinji breaks it immediately to the big blue ball scene - immediate precursor to the Rei sex scene.

(The "Good Bye mother") caption.... The "good bye mother" might be meant in a methaphorical sense here instead of her literally departing

Yeah. I'd place the end cards of EoTV maybe during the fall of GNR...

Half of 25 was contructed similarily, before instrumentality had even started...

Uh? I think Instrumentality has already started in 25, and, as we see in EoE, images and scenes previous to it are reused when it actually begins...

[Kendrix]

TVTropes full of shit as usual. EoTV uses the "January 1 2016" title card to evoke obvious images of fresh start, appropriate to Shinji's delusional euphoria at the end, but there's a reason that it's not in EoE, whose point is that fresh starts aren't generally as fresh as they look. However given that it's fairly well accepted that 25 and 25' both take place on December 31 2015, I don't see why it's impossible for at least part of EoE to take place on Jan 1.

But of course we have no idea how time passes in Instrumentality in either of its incarnations, there's no reason One More Final can't be taking place in the year 2525 for all we know.

I never said TV Tropes was a good source. That's why I was asking. We REALLY have no way to tell.

Concurrencywise of course she hasn't yet departed at this stage where Shinji has the omedetou revelation that triggers his "but that's not right". It's all a little weird temporally; the "stage world" obviously corresponds to the playground scene in EoE in some way, but then suddenly Shinji breaks it immediately to the big blue ball scene - immediate precursor to the Rei sex scene.

There we have it - the differences!
If anything, "that's not right" would be the end of the white room/this is freedom scene, but it's somewhat different.
EoE Shinji: nuh... I dun like Instrumentality. I've tested it out, but it's not any better. There isn't anything good there. I guess I'll stick to existing. It has good things, even if it hurts sometimes.
EoTV Shinji:...Just a Moment... It's MY OWN HEAD telling me that I'm useless`? Then maybe I can think that I'm not useless! Come to think of it, I'm really not all bad... I WANT to exist!

Both important truths, but different ones.

Uh? I think Instrumentality has already started in 25, and, as we see in EoE, images and scenes previous to it are reused when it actually begins...

It starts pretty much halfway through 25, as made very obvious by the text. As I said, the first half of 25 was in "introspective style" before instrumentality started.[/quote]

[TehDonutKing]

I recall Maya's computer to be dated "2016" when she's Tanged.

[Mr. Tines]

I recall Maya's computer to be dated "2016" when she's Tanged.

While episode 26 begins "It was 2016 A.D." somewhere in EoE you see screens with some sort of graph labelled "Second Impact" and "2015" (which is pretty crazy for something that really means "Now"). Concurrency demands the circle be squared so the assertion is made that we start on 31-Dec and continue to 1-Jan.

For people going by the phases of the moon as shown, it's full on 25-Dec-15 and new on 10-Jan-16. The moon is full when Rei wakes up the day of Third Impact., and does strange things thereafter as the succeeding posts show.