ZOMG PC

[UrsusArctos]

there is some serious b-u-t-t-h-u-r-t going on with the casting too as some go as far to pull the race card for not getting a part (yes, RACISM, The Hobbit casting director and producers are totally RACIST as they run around on horseback with bedsheets on while they burn crosses and lynch certain minorities in some people's opinion)

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

there is some serious b-u-t-t-h-u-r-t going on with the casting too as some go as far to pull the race card for not getting a part (yes, RACISM, The Hobbit casting director and producers are totally RACIST as they run around on horseback with bedsheets on while they burn crosses and lynch certain minorities in some people's opinion)

I auditioned for a role as a black man. I even sounded the part. The only issue was that I am white (and rather thin), and the writers didn't want to change the motivation of the character to accommodate a white person trying to be black.

Hobbits were created by Tolkien to comment on the cultures of rural England, and it would make sense if those creatures were fair skinned. It just makes sense. I can't play Shaft, (not the role I auditioned for, but just as an example), I don't think any white person can play Shaft, and I don't think any white person should play Shaft. (Shaft, played by John Travolta.) Casting just doesn't work that way.

[oOoOoOo]

there is some serious b-u-t-t-h-u-r-t going on with the casting too as some go as far to pull the race card for not getting a part (yes, RACISM, The Hobbit casting director and producers are totally RACIST as they run around on horseback with bedsheets on while they burn crosses and lynch certain minorities in some people's opinion)

Hobbits were created by Tolkien to comment on the cultures of rural England, and it would make sense if those creatures were fair skinned. It just makes sense. I can't play Shaft ... I don't think any white person can play Shaft, and I don't think any white person should play Shaft. ... Casting just doesn't work that way.

I hope Ursus-san isn't facepalming in agreement with you, but you are both sort of racist. This isn't surprising, considering you're both heterosexists and this shit tends to come in a package.

The actor in question was brown and of Pakistani descent. The casting person is quoted as saying:

"We are looking for light-skinned people ... You've got to look like a hobbit."

First off, this is an imaginary world full of imaginary shit. Tolkien modeled the Shire on the rural way of life, which is the important thing. He even specified that some hobbit families were darker than others, so there is in fact some diversity. You could make all the hobbits Asian and all the elves African and this wouldn't change the message, themes, plot, or characters in this story.

Besides, if you're working outside all day you're going to be tanned. Am I the only person who even knows what a Pakistani person looks like? Is a bit of a tan going to fuck up your appreciation of the plight of an imaginary race of small people? This is what the brown person in question looks like. Would it fucking blow your mind to see her as a hobbit? As a fucking extra in some crowd scene?

Maybe you should be complaining that Peter Jackson's franchise made use of big people to fill the roles of small people.

Way to fight the good fight, guys.

[Xard]

First off, this is an imaginary world full of imaginary shit. Tolkien modeled the Shire on the rural way of life, which is the important thing.

IIRC said browner hobits didn't even live in Shire. It's been some years since I was Tolkienite, granted, but I'm pretty sure I'm right about this.

That said this particular woman (based on pic) could pass as "brown" Hobit IMO (not as tanned one though), now that we've actually got her pic. But then again why bother as they're ment to be small english rural people? They don't look like that.

The mistake was understandable and not some grand gesture of ZOMGRACISM

[oOoOoOo]

Please also note that racism comes in flavours. Most racists don't go lynchin' on the weekend.

And they don't have to be small fucking rural English people. That's not even remotely important to anything going on here. This obsession with the racial purity of an imaginary people is hilarious.

[Mr. Tines]

The whole matter of Middle-Earth was conceived as a myth of the indigenous English people -- so if we are hewing to the source material, the swarthy of complexion would have to be cast as Haradrim or similar not very friendly folk who live far away.

[oOoOoOo]

If we want to play the history card, then it would be good to remember Pliny and Tacitus (Roman writers) who observed dark-skinned people in the British Isles. I'm talking Ethiopian dark.

[Azathoth]

If we want to play the history card, then it would be good to remember Pliny and Tacitus and other Roman writers who observed swarthy dark people in the British Isles.

whut

The Shire is early 20th century England. Tolkien left for World War I and then came back and whinged horribly about how they were ruining the countryside with their evil machines :( and because he was short on inspiration besides myth and Catholicism decided to work that into LotR.

[Mr. Tines]

swarthy dark people in the British Isles.

Those would be the Picts and similar ethnic groupings -- descending into latter days as the stereotypical Welshman. In the Tolkien frame of reference, they would at best be dwarves, but more probably orcs, living as they do under the mountains somewhere far enough away to not be the stuff of the everyday, but not too far away that encounters in battle are unknown.

Those of southern Asian extraction would still map onto the folk of the far south or distant East.

To, ahem, call a spade a spade, you aren't being faithful to the source material if you don't look at it with a Little Englander "wogs begin at Calais" attitude.

[oOoOoOo]

Tolkien was writing Middle-earth as if it was a long forgotten age in the "real world". In Tolkien's world those dark people would be humans, or "Men" as he preferred. Orcs are corrupted elves.

Either way, talking about some kind of Golden Age of ancient British whiteness is straight out of Hitler's nighttable diary. You people have some weird fucking obsessions. Is whiteness that important to the source material?

This is like herding cats.

RECAP:

1) Hobbits are meant to be a subrace of humans living in a forgotten age of Europe or Britain or however this fucked up geography works.
2) There were many colours wandering around ancient Britain and sometimes fucking happens.
3) A brown-skinned hobbit is not impossible.

That being said, even if this did fly in the face of TOLKIEN'S GRAND AND PERFECT VISION THAT MUST NOT BE ALTERED, it wouldn't change the parts of his works that are actually interesting. The skin colour of all his races is not the point.

[BrikHaus]

They should make Gollum black just to better exemplify his evilness.

[Xard]

@O-chan:

Why change something that doesn't really matter in the end? Why can't you leave it as it is if it is so insignificant detail?

It's not something Jackson commanded anyway but individual judgement by the guy running the audition thingy. Is his thinking really so incomprehensible?

Hobbits are english rural folk > GOSH SHE DOESN'T LOOK BRITISH AT ALL > well shit wouldn't she stick out like a sore thumb among the other hobbits > and I must be true to source material, too! > and look at that, we have hundred other people auditioning who'd fit the part perfectly > it's too bad but I better not choose her

If they'd put pakistani hobbit in there why not africans and asians too?

[oOoOoOo]

You guys sound like this: http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t760409/

Why change something that doesn't really matter in the end? Why can't you leave it as it is if it is so insignificant detail?

Tolkien specified that some hobbits were browner than others. Frodo is in fact "fair" compared to most hobbits. Harfoots are "browner". Sam is also described as "brown" for being out in the sun so long.

To assert that all hobbits are ethnic Scandinavians or something, that is going out of your way to be a racist dickwad.

[Xard]

Some of you guys sound like this: http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t760409/

haw haw haw so funneh

Tolkien specified that some hobbits were browner than others. Frodo is in fact "fair" compared to most hobbits. Harfoots are "browner". Sam is also described as "brown" for being out in the sun so long.

"brown" from sun doesn't translate to strikingly pakistani genetics.

As for the whole "browner" thing, see Tines's post on british ethnities. He most propably didn't mean indian/egyptian/whatever brown. In any case the LotR film trilogy established habitants of Shire as all white "englishmen". There's no reason to breach what is previously established

[oOoOoOo]

How about you actually look at the woman's face.

[Xard]

How about you actually look at the woman's face.

I looked at it. Not british features.

how bout you stop making huge ZOMGRACISM deal about something that happened due to entirely reasonable thought process by one person handling the casting that has nothing to do with racism?

[oOoOoOo]

I'm using "racism" in its broadest sense. You can be racist without being hateful.

In the prologue of Lord of the Rings, "Concerning Hobbits", it describes how after a time of wandering there emerged three kinds of hobbits. "The Harfoots were browner of skin, smaller, and shorter ... The Fallohides were fairer of skin and also of hair."

This hints at a level of diversity perhaps unknown in the Aryan paradise of Finland.

My discussion with Tines-san was, likewise, to point out that Tolkien's beloved Britain was never really ethnically homogeneous. Also, there's always going to be intermingling.

The text itself leaves room for brown hobbits, as does the history of Britain.

Is it so offensive that there could be a brown-skinned extra lurking in the background? Plenty of white people get as dark as that woman after toiling the fields out in the sun. Maybe the Finns are so pure that they never tan, but there are plenty of white people who do tan. The film would not be tainted by her hideous brownness and "not British features". Her features seem broad and cheery and hobbity to me.

My stance is that having a few brown extras would not detract from the film. Nobody would notice. But some of you take this to be a grave assault on the glorious purity of the text.

[Xard]

In the prologue of Lord of the Rings, "Concerning Hobbits", it describes how after a time of wandering there emerged three kinds of hobbits. "The Harfoots were browner of skin, smaller, and shorter ... The Fallohides were fairer of skin and also of hair."

You repeat this same thing and I don't think you know what it means. Remember what Tines said about stereotypical Welshman. That's all it might mean.

This hints at a level of diversity perhaps unknown in the Aryan paradise of Finland.

yeah, play the nazi card too. Wouldn't be the first time.

My discussion with Tines-san was, likewise, to point out that Tolkien's beloved Britain was never really ethnically homogeneous. Also, there's always going to be intermingling.

Picts et al have nothing to do with 19th/20th Century Rural England that Shire represents.

Is it so offensive that there could be a brown-skinned extra lurking in the background? Plenty of white people get as dark as that woman after toiling the fields out in the sun. Maybe the Finns are so pure that they never tan, but there are plenty of white people who do tan. The film would not be tainted by her hideous brownness and "not British features". Her features seem broad and cheery and hobbity to me.

My stance is that having a few brown extras would not detract from the film. Nobody would notice. But some of you take this to be a grave assault on the glorious purity of the text.

Well, yes. We Tolkienphiles can be pretty purist bunch (albeit I can't legitimately claim to be one of them anymore). And I doubt anyone would've noticed her in the film indeed. What got me and others annoyed is trying to portray this as RACISM of some sort which is just retarded. No, it wouldn't have been mortal catastrophe to have her in the film but reasoning of the guy responsible for decision was PERFECTLY UNDERSTANDABLE and had NOTHING TO DO WITH RACISM.

You jumping in this discussion throwing racism accusations left and right and calling people heterosexists from the start isn't exactly the smartest possible behaviour. It was also playing the racism card which was the very thing that irked people since the beginning.

edit:

I hope Ursus-san isn't facepalming in agreement with you, but you are both sort of racist. This isn't surprising, considering you're both heterosexists and this shit tends to come in a package.

Only reason you can get away with writing shit like this is because you're a woman and somehow sickeningly endearing (I may be angry at your writings in this post but there's no way I could hate you ). If I'd start pulling out allegations like this I'd be banned in a heartbeat

Just saying

[MugwumpHasNoLiver]

You could make all the hobbits Asian and all the elves African and this wouldn't change the . . . characters in this story.

Miss O, you know I think you're a wonderfully passionate, eloquent and outspoken woman, but don't you think that you're blowing this just a teensy bit way out of proportion? I really doubt the casting director is a racist, just because he thought the woman was too dark to fit the role of what he thinks of as being very pale people; and I really think it's just a bit extreme to compare the people on this board to violent hate speech spewers. Now, I admit that if I saw that woman mingling in the background of the movie, I wouldn't give it a second thought, and your argument about some Hobbits being tanned makes sense, but it really just seems like the guy was reasonably doing his job to cast English people (or people who look English) in English roles, and not trying to exclude the "impure non-Aryans". It seems like he was just unaware of the existence of brown Hobbits, or something.

And I would have to disagree, on the point made above. Changing a character's race would change their character. A person's racial identity makes up a fairly significant portion of their character, and can tie directly into their motivation, self-image, and behavior. If all the Hobbits were suddenly Asian, people would question why they're suddenly (even more different) from the other humanoid races. Making an entire fictional race Asian, or Asian influence would have a significant impact on their customs, beliefs, etc. Why are they Asian? Did they migrate? If so, why don't they display their native customs? Are they trying to conform to the local culture? Are they being oppressed by their more Anglo-Saxon neighbors? Th Hobbits being Asian would bring up a bunch of questions about their character, and flat out ignoring all of them would just make them seem silly and out of place. Stuff happens for a reason.

The same applies to the individual level as well. If only a few Hobbits were Asian, or a few Elves black, then they'd just look strange without an explanation, especially if most of the Hobbits are white. Are their Hobbits living in the east? Did they migrate? How do the other Hobbits treat them? Are they welcomed with open arms, discriminated against, etc.? Tolkien probably made all of the characters in his fictional world white because he was writing it in a predominately white area; and if you're going to introduce a foreign racial element into that, then it needs to be done in a way that's not shallow, because that will just make the audience wonder why. If you're artistic intention isn't going to be to explore the effect of racial diversity in an overwhelmingly white fantasy land, then it's probably a good idea to just keep all the characters white.

Well, that, or have the racial diversity so evenly spread and incorporated into said fantasy world, that it seems completely normal, but good luck getting that to happen with those racists running the studio system.

EDIT: Oh never-mind, you posted more while I was writing this. I just feel silly now in lieu of your recent response. But I took like a good ten minutes writing this, so somebody's going to read it, goddamn it.

[oOoOoOo]

Yeah, I'm definitely exaggerating a lot. Definitely a poor habit. Many apologies. Judging by my own posting history this is my chief vice. You can tell I haven't had my evening smoke yet. Nobody's a KKK member or a Neo-Nazi. The only person in this thread that I actively dislike is HAL, don't worry. Hugs and kisses~

And I get that we're all posting and editing and posting, but I'll address points anyway, for the sake of expanding.

Changing a character's race would change their character.

A dark hobbit would still clearly be a hobbit, and not an elf or an orc.

Are their Hobbits living in the east? Did they migrate? How do the other Hobbits treat them? Are they welcomed with open arms, discriminated against, etc.?

The lighter skinned hobbits, according to the prologue, ruled over the darker skinned hobbits as clan chiefs. The old dude goes on to write that the "greater families" have a "strong Fallohidish strain".

Picts et al have nothing to do with 19th/20th Century Rural England that Shire represents.

Tolkien was creating a mythology that predated the 19th/20th century. While he was influenced by the rural England of his day he felt he was writing something closer to history or myth, rather than allegory.

Tolkienphiles can be pretty purist bunch (albeit I can't legitimately claim to be one of them anymore).

Even ignoring the very brown hobbits in official media, there are wikis describing "nut brown" as a possible tone.

You jumping in this discussion throwing racism accusations left and right and calling people heterosexists from the start isn't exactly the smartest possible behaviour. It was also playing the racism card which was the very thing that irked people since the beginning.

I started off by saying "sort of racist", which I will downgrade to "sort of ridiculous". And anyway, we already know HAL has a deep fear of mosques all over New York with minarets so high they choke out the sun. But that could simply be a fear of Muslims as opposed to brown people. I'm not sure about the other guy, though.

Furthermore, the heterosexism was a petty jab on my part, but 300% accurate. FreakyFilmFan thinks queer parents can't raise a family properly and HAL believes in the Gay Agenda and is against same-sex marriage and thinks being queer is a choice. Petty jabs on my part. I will at this point willfully admit that I am a jerkface.

CONCLUSION: I feel a lot better after smoking a bowl. Maybe we should all just have a Roman orgy and then hit up the vomitorium.

LITTLE KNOWN FACT: I keep a tally of threads that I cause to close.