Analysis of Mari's role in Rebuild - lengthy

[Jornophelanthas]

Having been recently exposed to Rebuild 2.0, I have had a thought concerning the new character Mari that I have so far never seen mentioned before. Therefore, I decided to register here to present it to you. Note that this post is extremely spoiler-heavy.

Rebuild 2.0 deviates from the original series on a number of points. Although new scenes and plot elements are introduced (e.g. the aquarium scene, the dinner party plot, near-3I), another very frequently used method for this is by a rearranging of familiar story elements into different contexts, with possibly different outcomes. I'll call this "reshuffling". Some obvious examples include:

- Unit-03's (test) pilot: Toji is swapped for Asuka.
- The 10th Angel ("Zeruel") also fulfills the role of Armisael, as it brings about Rei's sacrifice for Shinji and the destruction of Unit-00.
- The elevator conversation between Asuka and Rei now focuses on Asuka's loss of Unit-02, rather than her ability to pilot it.
- The insertion of Rei's "I am not a puppet" (originally from EoE, spoken to Gendo) into this elevator scene.
- Kaworu's involvement in the plot. But I'll get back to that.

So what does this all have to do with Mari?

My argument goes that the Mari's involvement in the story mirrors certain elements in the original NGE series. Specifically, the elements introduced by the seventeenth Angel, Tabris. What has been "reshuffled" are the obvious properties of Tabris:

- Tabris is Kaworu.
(Kaworu is still Kaworu, and Mari is not.)
- Tabris is sent to NERV by SEELE.
(Kaworu is still the one sent by SEELE, and Mari's covert operations appear more tied to Kaji.)
- Tabris is one of the Angels attacking Tokyo-3.
(Kaworu's presence in Tokyo-3 is still quite menacing. Mari actually battles an Angel. Whether either of them is an Angel (or an "Adam") is unknown at this point.)

However, there is a number of other Tabris-traits that appear to be embodied in Mari:

- Mari appears in Shinji's life seemingly out of nowhere.
She literally drops from the sky and lands on top of him. This is somewhat similar to Kaworu's sudden appearance in Episode 24, where Shinji encounters him humming Beethoven's 9th Symphony on top of a pile of debris. In fact, the element of music is also present in Mari's appearance: Shinji was listening to his music player, which is broken by Mari's impact and plays a non-existent track 27 afterwards. Although we never hear any of Shinji's music tracks, I wonder if the malfunctioning Track 27 is the same Symphony, or perhaps another theme music suitable to Mari.

- So far, Mari appears to interact only with her handler, and Shinji.
This handler appears to be Kaji. My guess also is that the person she speaks with on the phone (in English) is Kaji. (A meta-clue for this is that Kaji is the only other significant person to speak English during the movie, in a sequence that also starred Mari.) Other than this, she appears to work alone, and only speaks to Shinji and the Evangelion Units 02 and 05.
Compare this to Tabris-Kaworu in the original series. Kaworu is shown having a mystifying conversation with SEELE (who have sent him in the first place), and apart from this screens himself off from anyone else, save Shinji and Rei. Now, about Rei...

[s]- Rei rejects Mari's help.[/s] (I no longer support this, see below)
Mari's only interaction with Rei is her attempt to assist Unit-00 in breaching the 10th Angel's AT Field. Rei then physically hurls Mari's Evangelion away (to save her from the subsequent explosion, basically claiming her sacrifice for herself alone.
Tabris-Kaworu's conversation with Rei ("We are both the same.") is less physical in nature, but Rei's response is similar in her refusal of Tabris-Kaworu's reaching out to her.
(Although Rei's presence at Tabris-Kaworu's voluntary death is a pivotal moment in her character development and foreshadows her total sacrifice/submission to Shinji in EoE, RoE appears to use Shinji's clawing his way into Zeruel's core to rescue her for a similar, yet opposite purpose: "Don't sacrifice yourself. Instead, live!")

- Mari hijacks Unit-02 and pilots it with extreme ease.
Mari is shown sneaking into NERV, releasing Unit-02 from sealed storage and then piloting it into combat without using any of the piloting equipment. She merely moves her limbs inside the entry plug, and the Evangelion performs the same movement. Such an extremely high synchronization rate is unheard of in even Asuka, the most intensively trained Evangelion pilot we know, who still uses the controls.
Tabris-Kaworu also hijacks Unit-02 during his descent to Terminal Dogma, controlling its movements without the use of an entry plug at all, instead floating along in his own AT Field beside it. While this is an even more extreme case of synchronization with an Evangelion Unit, the principle is the same: both Mari and Tabris-Kaworu operate Unit-02 through nothing more than volition.

- Mari lifts Shinji out of the shelter and back into the real world by holding him in Unit-02's hand.
This is not a similarity, but a role reversal. In Episode 24, it was Shinji who grabbed Tabris-Kaworu in Unit-01's hand, and subsequently killed him, thus preventing Third Impact.
Mari does the exact opposite to Shinji. She breaks him out of his shell, allowing him to witness Unit-00's destruction. This causes Shinji to stop running away, and allows him to bring about Third Impact (which is only prevented through the intervention by RoE-Kaworu, of all people).
Note two visual clues during this sequence that exactly mirror Episode 24:
1. As Mari lifts Shinji out of the shelter in RoE 2.0, the screen turns white before we see the Zeruel devour Unit-00 and spit out its lifeless helmet to the solid ground. As Shinji killed Tabris-Kaworu in Episode 24, the screen turns black before we see the outline of Kaworu's lifeless head falling down and landing in water/LCL.
2. Shinji's hand is stained with (Unit-02's) blood, which he stares at in horror. To me, this serves as a visual reminder to Shinji's squeezing Tabris-Kaworu to death in Episode 24. However, Mari does not kill him, but instead returns him to life after his self-chosen spiritual death.
(3. On a tangential note, Mari's breaking into Shinji's shelter where he sits huddled in a near-fetal position, and is initially unwilling to be rescued, closely resembles Shinji's (soul's?) clawing his way into Zeruel's core/soul, in order to save Rei('s soul?), who sits there huddled in a near-fetal position, and is initially unwilling to be rescued. To me, this symbolizes hope. Who knows, RoE may even have a happy ending. Toji already got his, after all.)

I hope these arguments are convincing enough to support my opinion that Mari resembles Tabris-Kaworu from the original series to some extent. This may raise the question whether Mari is an Angel or not. Unfortunately, this is something that this comparison cannot solve, as Mari could be human, an Angel, an "Adam", or something else entirely.

Thank you for bearing with me.

---

So where does this leave RoE-Kaworu? (I promised I would get back to this.)

Well, RoE-Kaworu is still associated with SEELE. He still appears to have superhuman resilience (sleeping naked in a coffin on the moon) and knowledge of mysteries unknown (his cryptic monologue can be interpreted as a conscious reference to the events in Episode 24 and EoE), and could thus be an Angel. He is still involved in a failed attempt at Third Impact (although this time it was probably Gendo's scenario that was prevented, not his own). And his agenda is still closely tied to (his opinion of) Shinji's well-being.
However, we have only seen Kaworu as a deus ex machina so far. Mari appears to have taken over his role as character support and enabler to Shinji, as a result of "reshuffling". We must await the sequels to learn of his further role in the Rebuild story, and to what extent he will reprise his original role from NGE.

Here is my (groundless) speculation:
- Either Mari or Rei becomes Shinji's "special friend" in Rebuild (romantic or not), just like Tabris-Kaworu was in NGE. Either Shinji will betray this person (if it's Rei), or this person will betray Shinji (if it's Mari). Hopefully, Shinji will not be forced to kill this special someone.
- Conversely, RoE-Kaworu becomes the barely human influence whose very presence creeps Shinji out, but who proves to be a benevolent (or at least well-meaning) force to Shinji's ultimate fate, just as Rei III was in Episode 23 and EoE.
- Either Mari, RoE-Kaworu or eyepatch-Asuka will prove to be the final Angel/Evangelion that Shinji must fight (like Tabris) at the final climax of Rebuild Q/3.0. Currently, my money is on Kaworu, and I expect Shinji to lose to him this time. Third Impact starts, and RoE-Kaworu will be the one to initiate it. To be continued in Rebuild Final.

If I can manage to find decent arguments for this, I'll write this up in more detail in a separate rant.

[Xard]

Actually Mari's purpose is to wreak havoc and destabiliate the original narrative

That is all.

Nice fanwank though. You have potential

[Azathoth]

Some good stuff in there. The problem is that you could do the same thing for Mari and several other characters - most obviously Misato, but Soryu and Rei both count - hell, you could even make a case for Yui. Mari is an amalgam of all of them for trolling purposes, with a slice of Enokido's "evil (wo)manchild" thrown in at some point and then mostly suppressed (by Anno?), as far as I can tell.

Although we never hear any of Shinji's music tracks, I wonder if the malfunctioning Track 27 is the same Symphony, or perhaps another theme music suitable to Mari.

There is no track 27. Shinji is trying to get his SDAT to work again when Kaji molests him. Mari broke it, which is the point.

[Jornophelanthas]

Thank you for your replies.

@Xard:
I don't deny the view that Mari is meant to destabilize the old plot. In fact, her actions in the shelter scene bring about an outcome that appears to be the mirror image of Episode 24. I view the "reshuffling" in Rebuild 2.0 as a redistribution of familiar plot elements to achieve vastly different outcomes.

@Azathoth:
My analysis is indeed one-sidedly aimed at Tabris-Kaworu. However, I see Tabris-Kaworu as more of a plot device than a character in NGE. I am inclined to view Mari in the same way. We have yet to see Mari as more than a force of nature/plot/anti-plot.
Also, good point about Track 27.

The bottom line to my argument, though, is that Mari is a plot device with great similarities to Tabris-Kaworu in Episode 24, while bringing about a result that is almost the mirror image of the outcome of that episode.

(I could be over-analyzing here, but the shot of her right before the 9th Angel ("Bardiel") attack shows her glasses mirroring the sky. Does this suggest that Mari's purpose is to literally invert the original NGE plot into its mirror image, or to turn it upside-down quite symmetrically?)

[Xard]

@Xard:
I don't deny the view that Mari is meant to destabilize the old plot. In fact, her actions in the shelter scene bring about an outcome that appears to be the mirror image of Episode 24. I view the "reshuffling" in Rebuild 2.0 as a redistribution of familiar plot elements to achieve vastly different outcomes.

See Tsurumaki interviews currently being translated. Anno had no fucking idea what to do Mari beyond I SHALL FUCK EVANGELION UP WITH HER

[Kendrix]

There's actually been a producer that compared her to Kaworu. (can't think of who it is), but that is largely because she, like him, is in the story more like a symbol instead of someone who has to accomplish a story (Like Asuka, Misato or Shinji, for example. Rei... Rei may be a middle ground.)

Kaworu is 'love'(not necessarily romantic love, tough), Mari is 'willpower' - The producers wanted her to distinctly be NOT unwordly like Rei or Kaworu - she also shares deep wisdom with Shinji, but she uses much different langue "If you keep acting like this, you won't have any fun" vs. Kaworu's deeply philosophic/metaphorical comments which show that he clearly spent too much time around Keel. She isn't 'heavenly/angelic', she's a 'priestess.'/link between the realms - she HAS meanings of her own, not one taken from others - she was supposed to 'shake things up' from the start (even if they weren't sure HOW - The first Mari-drafts showed a way different kind of 'willpower', being more adult-ish)

But saying that she actually takes his role is a bit far-fetched - Others say she takes Asuka's or Kaji's... They rushed everything from ep. 8 to 23 into one movie, but left all of Q for episode 24. (And bits from 20 to 23 they couldn't squeeze in, and new rebuild stuff and so on... maybe even early stuff from end, but either way, 24 got a LOT of time compared to many others. (11, for example, being reduced to an alternate version of "the phone call" and Maya walking through the streets of Tokyo3) Kaworu appeared earlier, so he IS seen as important by the writers (heck, Rebuild didn't start it - Look at Death.) and they wouldn't just replace him - Sadamoto at one point said (see the interview thread) that they could only properly develop one or two out of Touji, Kaworu or Asuka. They obviously didn't chose Touji, and they have been thinking about how to include Asuka in the story, so guess whom out of the three they chose? Yes. Kaworu. They are trying to include Asuka and Touji nonetheless the best they can, but they wanted to keep Kaworu at all costs. There's LOTS of Kaworu in Rebuild. (compare with original)
What would be the point of replacing him?

Oh, and Mari wasn't rejected by Rei - Au contraire. Rei is an awesome, selfless person that will save a complete stranger (one that helped her protect the ones she loves, but a stranger no less - She's never even seen Mari's face) instead of escaping herself.
She THANKED Mari. Who else has Rei ever thanked? Shinji. And Shikinami after she sort of saved her dinner party plans that meant A LOT to Rei. And she regrets never having thanked Gendo for anything after she finds out what gratitude is. Gendo is like, the only parent-y thing she ever had.
A "thank you" from Rei is hardly a rejection. It's more like Rei appreciated Mari's assitance.

The Rei that mistrusted Kaworu so much was Rei III anyway.
And Kaworu taking HER place would make him... not Kaworu. This is not the Manga. He still has his omnispresent smile and intrest in the other participants in the big plot.
And he's been a sort of CONTRAST of Rei III - Both have a SoL background, but Kaworu indentifies himself as an individual, enjoys his existence ('Joy' surrounds him like a theme music - Wait, his actual theme Song IS the Ode to Joy and I doubt they'll change it - they dropped Shinji's theme and Rei II's theme cuz they stuck in no ones head, but they reused slightly different versions of "Asuka Strikes", whatever the Unit 01 theme is called, Misato's theme, "Thanatos", Ritsuko's Theme and Rei's little piano theme. They won't change the Song of the character who is MOST associated with his music - It would be like Sephiroth without One Winged Angel. ), is particulary gifted at understanding others and has a contrant smile on his face, in stark contrast to death-seeking, aloof Rei III.

It's absurd to think that Mari is meant to 'replace' anyone, as she was inserted to be different. The two characters simply serve similar roles in Shinji's world.

[beaverteeth92]

I have an idea. How about we stop speculating about her role and wait until 3.0 comes out?

[esselfortium]

I have an idea. How about we stop speculating about her role and wait until 3.0 comes out?

Even better idea!!! Let's not tell people to do this!

I mean...they could stop, sure, but this site's very existence is more or less to speculate about stuff, so it'd be kind of silly. And it's also pretty dang rude to pop into an active discussion and make a broad, overarching statement that you don't think their rather straightforward topic is worthwhile, without even making any contribution to it. Hope this helps.

If we're not speculating about stuff we don't know in some way or another, there's not really a whole lot to talk about, especially in this subforum. Even the much-maligned criticism/praise posts rely on assumption to some extent.

[Eva 04]

I have an idea. How about we stop speculating about her role and wait until 3.0 comes out?

How about no? This is the kind of thing that goes on around here.

And about Tabris hijacking Unit 02 in the TV series. He was an angel so it wasnt any surprise he could do what he did since all the angels have some kind of ability or power unique to them.

[Kendrix]

How about no? This is the kind of thing that goes on around here.

And about Tabris hijacking Unit 02 in the TV series. He was an angel so it wasnt any surprise he could do what he did since all the angels have some kind of ability or power unique to them.

It was said that it's more because of him having Adam's Soul and EVA 02 being Adam-derived - controllig it should be like moving his own body to him.

What I find intresting, is that he could open the lock at terminal dogma with just a look. Not even raw violence or having EVA 02 stap though the door. He just LOOKED at it. Must be some telekinetic thing.

@ whoever told us to wait until Q: Well, I'd LIKE to stop speculationg, but Q is a long, long time away and I'm bored. That you can discuss it to death is one of the things that makes EVA awesome.

[Sailor Star Dust]

Good analysis. :) Of course, we'll just have to play the waiting game.

For what it's worth... http://www.evageeks.org/2009/04/rumor-mill-uhh-kaworu-and-mari-are-twins/

Slight nitpick:

2. Shinji's hand is stained with (Unit-02's) blood, which he stares at in horror. To me, this serves as a visual reminder to Shinji's squeezing Tabris-Kaworu to death in Episode 24. However, Mari does not kill him, but instead returns him to life after his self-chosen spiritual death.

While that's true with NGE, regarding Rebuild, I think Eva-02's blood is meant to symbolize a visual reminder of Shinji's hands getting bloodied by the Dummy System/Gendo's actions with Asuka/Eva-03.

[Jornophelanthas]

Oh, and Mari wasn't rejected by Rei - Au contraire. Rei is an awesome, selfless person that will save a complete stranger (one that helped her protect the ones she loves, but a stranger no less - She's never even seen Mari's face) instead of escaping herself.
She THANKED Mari. Who else has Rei ever thanked? Shinji. And Shikinami after she sort of saved her dinner party plans that meant A LOT to Rei. And she regrets never having thanked Gendo for anything after she finds out what gratitude is. Gendo is like, the only parent-y thing she ever had.
A "thank you" from Rei is hardly a rejection. It's more like Rei appreciated Mari's assitance.

The Rei that mistrusted Kaworu so much was Rei III anyway.
And Kaworu taking HER place would make him... not Kaworu. This is not the Manga. He still has his omnispresent smile and intrest in the other participants in the big plot.
And he's been a sort of CONTRAST of Rei III - Both have a SoL background, but Kaworu indentifies himself as an individual, enjoys his existence

I stand corrected. Rei's gratitude for Mari's help is indeed as extreme as Rei could possibly manage. By expressing her thanks, Rei accepted Mari as an equal, or at least a friend, just as she did to Shinji and Asuka. This means that the two-sides-of-the-same-coin-opposition between Tabris-Kaworu and Rei III in NGE is not transferred to Mari's role.

(As a sidenote, I doubt if Mari could have heard Rei speaking to her, because she had shut off all communication lines to her entry plug. Still, what matters is the fact that Rei said it at all.)

It's absurd to think that Mari is meant to 'replace' anyone, as she was inserted to be different. The two characters simply serve similar roles in Shinji's world.

Not what I'm saying. By "reshuffling" I meant using plot elements from NGE in RoE redistributed to different characters or contexts to provide different outcomes. Kaworu is still Kaworu, but some of his story involvement shifts to Mari, just like some (most) of Toji's story involvement shifts to Asuka, and some of Asuka's story involvement shifts to... Rei? Mari? Kaworu? Gendo? We'll have to wait for that one.

The thought I'm developing as this thread develops is that RoE is like a mirror image of NGE: the two are the same and opposites at the same time. A possibility I'm putting forward here is that RoE-Rei's and RoE-Kaworu's relationships to RoE-Shinji will be the reverse of NGE-Shinji's relationships to Rei III and Tabris-Kaworu. Meaning RoE-Shinji becomes extremely close to RoE-Rei (to the point that it nearly initiated Third Impact in 2.0), while there is a distance between RoE-Kaworu and RoE-Shinji. At least, Gendo and Keel are setting them up as rivals for realizing the "Covenant with Lilith", which creates more tension than in NGE, with gave us Tabris-Kaworu showing up to replace Asuka Soryuu, who has failed her purpose (not merely as pilot of Unit-02, but also as the target of NGE-Shinji's love/affection at that point).
What we saw in EoE was Shinji recoiling from Lilith-Rei, but blissfully relaxing when Kaworu-Adam surfaces from Lilith. I am expecting the opposite of this response in Rebuild (though maybe in an altered setting).

Sorry for rambling. Everything has to do with everything in Evangelion, and it's hard to separate my thoughts.

Now for some further responses to your replies:

It was said that it's more because of him having Adam's Soul and EVA 02 being Adam-derived - controllig it should be like moving his own body to him.

Exactly. I am wondering if this says anything about Mari, because NGE is not RoE. But maybe the two are "mirror images".

Slight nitpick:

Jornophelanthas wrote:
2. Shinji's hand is stained with (Unit-02's) blood, which he stares at in horror. To me, this serves as a visual reminder to Shinji's squeezing Tabris-Kaworu to death in Episode 24. However, Mari does not kill him, but instead returns him to life after his self-chosen spiritual death.

While that's true with NGE, regarding Rebuild, I think Eva-02's blood is meant to symbolize a visual reminder of Shinji's hands getting bloodied by the Dummy System/Gendo's actions with Asuka/Eva-03.

This is exactly an example of this mirror image theory. Shinji's horror reminds him (and us) of Unit-03's destruction, but at the same time it evokes NGE Episode 24, as a meta-point. It's not one or the other, it's both. The Rebuild movies are full of references to the differences with NGE, e.g. Toji stating that he "lost out" when the audience is awaiting the announcement of Unit-03's pilot. (He was referring to the popsicle stick that could contain a prize, but we know what the director means.)

[Kendrix]

Yes, they couldn't stop the meta-ism from entering the movie.

I think it's not so much mari taking Kaworu's role, but illustrating how much Shinji changed - instead of being EMO cuz Mari and Asuka (The blood of EVA 02 is used as a clever trick to symbolize them both) got hurt because of his actions, (like he got EMO when Kaworu died to save his life and proptly attemts to drown him self, almost making Kaworu's sacrifice for nothing) but decides that he won't let a third girl suffer because of his passiveness - He was saved, so it's his turn to save others - In fact, he seems to have learned from the speech Kaji held him at the Aquarium (being saved comes with duties etc) and Gendo's ill-fated attempt to act like an actual father for once (Archieving stuff with your own hands demands sacrifices)
This time, he ACCEPTS what other's give him (another way to translate Gendo's advice) and goes to save Rei.

Note how he doesn't look at his hand at first and holds it away from him as he chants "I don't was to pilot" - He's in DO NOT WANT mode, has his heart closed off - but then Mari knocks him awake.
I think you're right about the "mari pulling him from the underworld" thing - (and the similar poses - I missed that one at first! Oh, Anno, your Anime never seems to be out of secrets to discover!) Rei picking up the SDAT player serves a similar purpose. The player always represented Shinji/was used to reflects his state of mind - It even has the same backstory in Rebuild (used to be Gendo's but he threw it away - but he couldn't bring himself to destroy it like all the pictures of Yui - Maybe this is not the player's first adventure as romantic keepsake... - Oh, and notice that it was only halfway in the trashbin. It might have been the same Situation as when Shinji finds it. )
It also served to 'defend Shinji from the world' - By throwing it away, he surrenders to the "world he hates" and looses any hope to redeemn himself - > as you said correctly, spirituat death.
Shinji thinks he's trash, and the player he used to decieve himself with is ttrash aswell. Rei begs to differ. For her, Shinji isn't trash, and neither is the player - she keeps it 'cause she wants to have a part of Shinji - it becomes an important keepsake to her, exactly like Gendo's cast-off glases. The player in her plug was a very telling detail - this time, she isn't fighthing because of the purpose Gendo gave her, this is for Shinji.
The girls pull him out of the 'metaphorical' underworld - and Shinji proves himself worthy of Rei's trust as he pulls as Orpheus here and rips her out of the LITERAL underworld. He IS supposed to be pulling her from the notherworld - according to Enokido, that scene is all about "SAlvation" - Rei's salvation, but also Shinji's.
He pulls the player out along with her - He has now found out what his TRUE reason for piloting EVA was and that he WANTS to do this - for the first time, he's not saying that it's cuz others tell him to to not have to live with consequences (See conversation with Misato at the beginning - "Deep down, you wanted to come yourself. Be more honest with your feelings!") In doing so, he has redeemed himself as well.

I wouldn't call Rebuild a "mirror image", but the Meta aspects are there. I'd say it's somewhere between "EVA with it's message more clearly spelt out so the damn otakus get it this time" (Example: Shinji's DO NOT WANT attitude after the bardiel incidents and Gendo's attempts to act fatherly are made more clear) and "EVA if the characters had a taken a different road"/leabed their lessons a bit earlier.
Without a doubt, you get the best experience out it if you watch the original first.

Oh, and of course, they are redistributing plot elements, but look at HOW they do it: It's not like they have character A experience the same as Character B in the original, they construct the original incident in a way that it fits character A/becomes part of As own plotline:

a) Zeruel gets Armisaels part in absorbing/killing Rei, but it still acts like Zeruel and not like Armisael - no attempt to "communicate" with Rei, not even merging with her mind/heart - zeruel seems to outright hate humans/stops in it way to kill some instead of moving on to Lillith. Rei is devoured for strategic purposes - i.e, getting to Lillith. And it still suffers a horrible death and the hands of someone trying to protect their loved one. (Yui: Don't touch my Baby! *NOM* Shinji: Don't touch my GF! *SLPAT* That terrifyng Ikari blood...) - Oh and it involuntarily bequathed it S2-Engine to EVA 01 in both cases.

b) Asuka in EVA 03. They make it an "Asuka thing" - After losing her position as EVA pilot and seing Shinji happy with another girl, she gets very depressed, but them she has an epiphany and does something amazing you wouldn't expect of her, but someone up there just doesn't seem to like her and so, despite her best efforts she had the misfortune of sitting in an EVA is it was dismerbered by other EVA, losing an Eye in the process. Shinji doesn't take it very well. - EoE parallel, anyone? And yes, giving up on Shinji and admitting that she feels comfortable spilling her true feelings to others IS an amazing thing at least I didn't expect of her - think of ep 22 where she starts talking to Shinji about her stepmother issues, but stops dead in her tracks as she becomes aware of this. few anime girls are able to stop moping about a guy not loving them/loving an other girl. Orihime Inoue, Sakura Haruno, Yuka... TAKE THIS.

b) Mari taking Asuka's role in the Zeruel battle - yes, they both lost, but Maris way of 'losing' makes me think of EoE Asuka. You can't fully compare it cuz Mari's story only just started and Asuka's character had come to Full Bloom in EoE - Asuka vs Harpies had a completely different meaning/much more of a meaning for Asuka herself, but the point is that while both lost, they were no easy prey. They lost in a badass way.
Zeruel was Shinji's designated enemy, and EoE needed to look apocalyptic/ needed something to squeeze the very last bit of sanity out of Shinji, so they had to lose for plot reasons - much different from original Asuka hopelessly emptying her guns in ep 19. Some of the visuals were similar (the gunfire at the beginning, the Eye Zoom...) but the meaning of the scene is as completely changed as that of Rei's kamikaze attack.
Just as the Bardiel incident was made an Asuka-y thing, that battle was made a Mari-thing: We see her enjoying the fights intensity to it's fullest, trying any means at her disposal, no matter how crazy or dangerous they may be - Just like in the Tunneliel battle, where she wrecked her enemy in an unfinished EVA that was falling appart all the time by using the self distruction. And Mari COOPRATES WITH Rei, in stark contrast to how the girls attacked Zeruel one after another.

They are not giving character A Bs role, but use a plot element once used for B for A to fulfill As role.

[Xard]

I like the way you guys ignored my post why all this is stretch at best and utterly implausibe at worst

[Jornophelanthas]

@Kendrix:
I believe we are in agreement on quite a lot, after all. Your explanation is exactly what I mean by "reshuffling", and was having trouble putting to words.

Shinji thinks he's trash, and the player he used to decieve himself with is ttrash aswell. Rei begs to differ. For her, Shinji isn't trash, and neither is the player - she keeps it 'cause she wants to have a part of Shinji - it becomes an important keepsake to her, exactly like Gendo's cast-off glases. The player in her plug was a very telling detail - this time, she isn't fighthing because of the purpose Gendo gave her, this is for Shinji.

As I read this comment on Gendo's glasses, I remebered the second-to-final scene in Rebuild 1.0, where Shinji has just pried open Rei's entry plug, finding her unhurt, and he tells her to smile. He extends his hand out to her (to help her get up?), and she takes it.

There are at least three things that are very telling about these two shots.

1. Shinji literally reaches out to someone at this point in the story, and the gesture is reciprocated. This is far beyond what NGE-Shinji would have been able to do, and while it has been a long time since I saw the anime, I believe it was not until he met Tabris-Kaworu that he voluntarily opened up to this extent. (In fact, Episode 24 makes a point of Kaworu grabbing Shinji's hand and Shinji letting him, whereas he brushed of Misato's similar attempt.)

2. Perhaps even more astonishingly, Rei - who is even less sociable than Shinji - answers the gesture and allows herself to be a part of Shinji's life. In NGE, Rei II only reached the conclusion that she wanted to share her feelings with Shinji was during the battle with Armisael, where she perished with Unit-00.
Of course, she still remains loyal to Gendo, but the fact that she tells Asuka Shikinami during the elevator scene that "she is not a puppet" implies to me that her primary loyalty has already shifted at that point, and she will never (need to) say these words to Gendo later on.

3. A minor, but essential detail. As Rei extends her hand towards Shinji's, she lets go of the case holding Gendo's glasses, which she was holding. Symbolically, she exchanges Gendo for Shinji in this very moment. I'm not sure if the glasses (or its case) are seen after that, perhaps during the 8th Angel attack ("Sahaquiel") in Rebuild 2.0, but I suspect they are not.
Of course, her using the music player as a new good luck charm during the 10th Angel battle ("Zeruel") is a substitute for Shinji's presence. She did not need it during the 8th Angel battle, because Shinji was right there with her.

I am sorry for drifting off-topic in my own thread, as this discussion was supposed to be about Mari. I do have a Mari-related observation, though.


-----NOW EDITED TO ADD:


I have another observation related to Mari in Rebuild 2.0. In Kendrix' post above, a link is made between Kaji's talk about the responsibility of survivors in the aquarium, and Gendo's angry lecture about achieving what you want, with mari connected to this somehow.

Shinji initially accepts the truth of Kaji's lesson, but his response is to run away from such survivor responsibility after the 9th Angel attack ("Bardiel"). At the same time, he refuses Gendo's lesson because he is angry with him.

Enter Mari.

Shinji returns to NERV, and demands to pilot Unit-01 against the Angel. When asked by Gendo why he wants to pilot, Shinji yells: "Because I am the pilot of Unit-01!". Kaji's lesson is learned.

Shinji tackles the 10th Angel and claws his way into its core, to reach Rei. This takes nearly superhuman effort, and is shown to be an act of supreme willpower. He will literally do anything and everything, unrelentingly, to get her back. Gendo's lesson is learned.

And just like in Rebuild 1.0, at the climax of 2.0 Shinji extends his hand to Rei, and she takes it.

Thus, Mari not so much illustrates what Shinji has achieved, but she brings about this change. She doesn't just talk to Shinji, she literally lifts him out of the darkness and thrusts him back into the world. Her role seems to be a catalyst to Shinji's character development, his growing up. Which also happened to be Tabris-Kaworu's role in NGE Episode 24.

(And I agree that her very presence symbolizes the break in RoE's plot from the original plot in NGE, and that she personifies willpower not only in her own behaviour but also by inducing willpower in Shinji. I do not agree with the statement that she is an agent of chaos, as Xard appears to say.)

[Kendrix]

As I read this comment on Gendo's glasses, I remebered the second-to-final scene in Rebuild 1.0, where Shinji has just pried open Rei's entry plug, finding her unhurt, and he tells her to smile. He extends his hand out to her (to help her get up?), and she takes it.

There are at least three things that are very telling about these two shots.

1. Shinji literally reaches out to someone at this point in the story, and the gesture is reciprocated. This is far beyond what NGE-Shinji would have been able to do, and while it has been a long time since I saw the anime, I believe it was not until he met Tabris-Kaworu that he voluntarily opened up to this extent. (In fact, Episode 24 makes a point of Kaworu grabbing Shinji's hand and Shinji letting him, whereas he brushed of Misato's similar attempt.)

2. Perhaps even more astonishingly, Rei - who is even less sociable than Shinji - answers the gesture and allows herself to be a part of Shinji's life. In NGE, Rei II only reached the conclusion that she wanted to share her feelings with Shinji was during the battle with Armisael, where she perished with Unit-00.
Of course, she still remains loyal to Gendo, but the fact that she tells Asuka Shikinami during the elevator scene that "she is not a puppet" implies to me that her primary loyalty has already shifted at that point, and she will never (need to) say these words to Gendo later on.

3. A minor, but essential detail. As Rei extends her hand towards Shinji's, she lets go of the case holding Gendo's glasses, which she was holding. Symbolically, she exchanges Gendo for Shinji in this very moment. I'm not sure if the glasses (or its case) are seen after that, perhaps during the 8th Angel attack ("Sahaquiel") in Rebuild 2.0, but I suspect they are not.
Of course, her using the music player as a new good luck charm during the 10th Angel battle ("Zeruel") is a substitute for Shinji's presence. She did not need it during the 8th Angel battle, because Shinji was right there with her.

This is something I do not agree with - The first Movement we see is her fingers twitching - those fingers that had refused to let go of Gendo's glasses untill the very end as she was guarding Shinji from the particle beam - and there's no indication that the Hand she extends to Shinji isn't her other one. Rei also said the "I'm not a doll" line to Asuka in the original, seconds before stating that she'd kill herself if Gendo ordered to - in the next episode, she disregard direct orders by Misato to make sure Shinji is safe. At that point, she wasn't saying this because it's an order, but because it's Gendo. Rei IIs loyalty NEVER shifts away from Gendo - She sees a flash of him smiling at her just before her death (my theory is that she regrettet never thanking him for giving her her life cuz she's only recently found out that living is something she is happy about) and a brief apparition of her is seen picking up Gendo's glasses and holding them close to her heart after her sucessor's betrayal. It was Rei III who came to hate him, Rei II never did - even less so in Rebuild, where she actually tries to get the two most important ppl in her life to get along instead of choosing one. Rebuild puts a lot of emphasing on the Shinji/Gendo relationship to the point of having Misato say that Rei wanted them to be happy together as a last resort to talk sense into Shinji. We also see more of their Relationship here, she seems to feel perfectly comfortable around him/trust him a lot as she asked him about stuff that was related to winning over Shinji's heart in the dinner scene - Yes, her plans actually involved Gendo himself, and she was asking about most elementary things (Do ppl like getting stuff cooked for them?), she is still essentially asking him about how to get her love intrest - How many girls have such a close bond with their (in Rei's case surrogate) fathers to talk about such topics? If they are going to do any loyalty shift if Rebuild, they're saving it for Q.

The Hands thing is a difference, tough - Look closely. He's not pulling her out of the plug, he stepped into it once he began his speech about not saying such sad things to her. They are actually for all intents and purposes holding hands.
Perhaps Shinji felt a bit more comfident after the "getting up and crawling to the riffle" scene of rebuild!Operation Yashima than he did in the original.

Thus, Mari not so much illustrates what Shinji has achieved, but she brings about this change. She doesn't just talk to Shinji, she literally lifts him out of the darkness and thrusts him back into the world. Her role seems to be a catalyst to Shinji's character development, his growing up. Which also happened to be Tabris-Kaworu's role in NGE Episode 24.

(And I agree that her very presence symbolizes the break in RoE's plot from the original plot in NGE, and that she personifies willpower not only in her own behaviour but also by inducing willpower in Shinji. I do not agree with the statement that she is an agent of chaos, as Xard appears to say.)

I already pointed out several times that Mari NOT pressuring him but simply showing him what he did did the trick - This works because Shinji actually won't get into the EVA unless he really wants it, but keeps saying that it's because of others so he won't be "to blame" if stuff goes wrong - and he expects it to go wrong cuz he has no confidence in himself.

But Mari fully accepted him running away - and so he realized that he DOES want to get into the Mecha himself. Tough most times the answer I get is that Mari is fanservice and I shouldn't interpret anything into her scenes XD

I think that Xard means "agent of chaos" in the sense that she disrupts the order of the old series - but what sort of order was that?
That almost everybody was defeated by their own inner limitations, mostly Shinji - what if he hadv just tried instead of givinmg up here, what if he had just tried instead of giving up there... Think of the "You did this" scene at the end of ep. 25. THAT is the order that she disrupts. (along with a few in universe rules - She is a rogue element. C'mon asll the security regulations in the original BEGGED for someone to subvert them XD)

I agree with you here that Mari sort of "personifies" the change - Every character has a story of their own, but also represents something in Shinji's world, and Mari is something that wasn't present before (untill ep 26 - but they wouldn't bother introducing an extra character for it that late XD) She isn't 'hope' - that's always been Rei. Something alien, different he's watched from the distance, he never allowed himself any hope, untill he gets to know it as something warm and comforting.
So I think that Mari is "willpower" - standing up and ACTINC to archieve that hope (That sentece IS the last third of 2.X XD), pulling through even if there's setbacks.
It's even lampshded in the song she sings in the prologue - three steps backwards and only two steps back. The Movie is called "you can (not) advance". First, Shinji forges new bonds (Asuka, Kaji), has victories in battle (Sahaquiel), gets closer to his father... Everything is looking perfectly. He thinks he might really advance this time(Track 27!) - But reality is a bitch and gives us the Bardiel incident, that evil montage where Asuka smiles properly for the first time in a long while, only to get that smile wiped off her face in the most evil way, where we see Shinji standing there with a bag in his hand (a present for Rei?!), where we see Gendo order an immediate U-Turn (he was going to pick up his offspring in a limousine!) and Rei starinh horified at the MIB (she had bought a table! - in vain...) That is the "not" in the title. The last act of the movie is the brackets; With Mari's help, Shinji realizes that he has the choice, that he can choose to give up or to stand up again and kick ass - and he choses the latter.

[Nonoriri]

Kaworu appeared earlier, so he IS seen as important by the writers (heck, Rebuild didn't start it - Look at Death.) and they wouldn't just replace him - Sadamoto at one point said (see the interview thread) that they could only properly develop one or two out of Touji, Kaworu or Asuka. They obviously didn't chose Touji, and they have been thinking about how to include Asuka in the story, so guess whom out of the three they chose? Yes. Kaworu. They are trying to include Asuka and Touji nonetheless the best they can, but they wanted to keep Kaworu at all costs. There's LOTS of Kaworu in Rebuild. (compare with original)
What would be the point of replacing him?

However, because a film has to develop a "flow" within a limited amount of time, we wouldn't have the space to closely develop three characters in "Break."

They chose Asuka, Kaworu is not a character that is developed in 2.0.

[Kendrix]

They chose Asuka, Kaworu is not a character that is developed in 2.0.

He still gets a LOT of screentime compared to others/the amount he had in the original series - Q's most likely going to be the big Kaworu movie. They're probably saving most of 25/26 for Final, so that leaves the flashbacks from ep 21, the plot of ep 20, (simply cuz Kaji's still alive and Rei and Shinji are liquified within an EVA), most likely something new involving Asuka so she gets something do do, (the Doll particularily has 'plot inmportance written all over it), a bit of new stuff here and there, and after that, mostly Kaworu. He's even getting new scenes - Like the "meeting of the destined children".

There's not much to do with Kaworu in 2.X anyway...

[CORE]

Its important to remember that Q and Final will not be able to reference many nostalgic scenes like the first two films have with out bringing a characters expected remaining existence within the world to a end in a short time after. Especially so if we consider the hole new ending remarks to mean a ending that avoids the two internalised psychosomatic endings we have already received.

Also the idea of doing a film about a character is kind of absurd in any story thats not fan made and overly objectives a character. An introduction of a character is one thing.. calling a story theirs is another.. rebuild has less and less a main protagonist as it progresses and now with much of the nostalgic events covered the idea of no protagonist and 100% ensemble as it speeds up to a end is quite likely and would explain the lack of interactions with Mari.

The film format allows you to cover a wider perspective of a world while retaining the viewers ability to tie events together with its longer attention span. The question now really is how much of the world is Shinji's own negative creation and how much is reality. I would say with Mari/Kaworu and Reis (silly ending of evaTV clothing) in the trailer of Q maybe this dark world we are stuck in is a reality and not a projection. Perhaps how many of the fans that responded so negatively towards the original endings felt. That this world was a raw reality and that the depressive world they enjoyed to watch was much like there own unchangeable with the power of their own will.

They where to weak to think past their problems so now others must help them? " i will at least make you happy?" .. Mari coming to help ... Rei adopting her end of TV series character more.. (but still with a sad face? who knows why)

Its very interesting reading what your all thinking. The idea of a corrected ending exposes so much of a persons inclinations.

[Xard]

He still gets a LOT of screentime compared to others/the amount he had in the original series

All Kaworu does is being mysterious as fuck and kakkoii, then "impales" (huehuehue) Shinji with homoerotic undertones in the very end.

You have to be delusional to think 2.0 focused on Kaworu instead of Asuka.