[Books] Shizo/Parano

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Postby berto » Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:36 pm

I suppose that there is some logic to that. Most authors would create characters they thmselves like but it takes ball to create a character that reflects certain things about thamselves they dispice.

Ayanami starts to really become mysterious once her monolouge inside the eva on ep. 13 starts, I mean really mysterious, not just a bit quiet and hard to figuere out but a genuinly complex character to which we can only guess about. If Anno doesn't like her, whatever, I love her character and he had well over a decade to imagine better things for her on Renewal.
Not who you think I am.

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Postby 1731298478 » Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:19 pm

View Original PostXard wrote: Furthermore I'm not sure how relevant this is to the books but I wouldn't be surprised if etymology behind the titles "parano" and "schizo" is relevant to the contents of some interviews. Yes, parano and schizo are jap shortenings of "paranoiac" and "schizophrenic" but they have highly focused and short history which weighs on the two words. They're tied to history of "New Academism" of 80s aka "New Aka" as Japanese call it ... Anno was certainly of right age in early 80s.


I wasn't aware that Asada was responsible for the Japanese usage of those words; that's very interesting. I haven't seen any indication that Anno was influenced by New Academism, or that he was directly familiar with Asada, but it's something worth keeping an eye out for.

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Postby Xard » Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:15 pm

View Original Post1731298478 wrote:I wasn't aware that Asada was responsible for the Japanese usage of those words; that's very interesting. I haven't seen any indication that Anno was influenced by New Academism, or that he was directly familiar with Asada, but it's something worth keeping an eye out for.


According to Azuma Anno's "intellectual roots won't go back to New Aka" but that doesn't mean there can't be some connection here, given the naming of the books and all.

It is just speculation at this stage though :)

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Postby NAveryW » Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:15 pm

Someone wants to translate this, right? Wouldn't it be great to have available information from Anno about the "Kimochi warui" line besides "Maybe she has morning sickness"?
"Today?... hmm... today... right... Um... I'm just gonna wing it." -Guess who

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Postby TaintedHero » Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:00 pm

View Original PostNAveryW wrote:Someone wants to translate this, right? Wouldn't it be great to have available information from Anno about the "Kimochi warui" line besides "Maybe she has morning sickness"?


Google chrome translated it when I clicked the link.

SPOILER: Show
Ended up leaving the mystery variety, "Evangelion" (Eva below), among them, called a lot of discussion THE END OF EVANGELION (less EOE) last remark of "bad feelings" about the motives, Hideaki Anno end the work of supervision, "Eva" as I think my own way.

 Director Anno "and creation is Onanishou" and said in Sukizo Evangelion.
Making the work is Onanishou is the idea that self-satisfaction that can show to others. From this idea, "Eva" It can be likened to the work of Anno Onanishou director.


 A large theater audience (viewers) to fill in, Eva is started.

 Dark, now has a stage light, Eva is starting. There are beautiful costumes, beautiful actors, and the figure of Hideaki Anno. The audience the beauty of the actor, surprise was with high expectation of me to show you what now. But soon to start, there were people left the theater with the intuition to do what happens next. The representatives of Hayao Miyazaki, Miyazaki's practice, did not say I looked at myself to see the storyboard.

 Actors, different pose, will continue to attract audiences, and actors that later we will continue to expose the skin off your clothes. The audience was enthusiastic about the physical beauty of the finished piece off his clothes until after the actor is about 19 stories.

 But the 24 actors from around the story takes about 20 began unexpected behavior. Actors are naked and started masturbating last one took off. Some of this audience behavior, left the theater feeling uncomfortable and angry, the audience was crazy, but other actors are excited about masturbation.

 25 stories and 26 stories Okimashita incident, the actor is put semen into the face of the audience saying that service. This includes a lot of angry spectators, but even more exciting for spectators other joy. Some people do not know what happened and even more.
 Thus the curtain Oroshimashita Eva.


 After the TV series, directed by Anno came his calm and thought of people saw it. Myself and masturbating with semen over, watching it, many people are getting excited about doing it with joy
 When I saw it objectively, I thought director Anno.

 And, EOE has been made. Shinji has first masturbation scene, which viewers "What I have seen guys that Kore," saying that I think. Finally, to masturbation, I said shout to see a situation where many people are happy with it and put myself in the semen.

 "···· Disgusting "

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Postby NAveryW » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:34 am

Yes, I'm very well aware of how Google translates things. Unfortunately, those translations are often useless. Eric Blair kindly gave general statements about a couple of parts of the page on the IRC today. I didn't keep a log, but this is what I remember:

The test audience (yes, there was apparently a test audience!) felt disgusted and annoyed at the masturbation scene. Though Anno's intention was for the audience to feel disgusted ("kimochi warui"), he tried to pacify their anger by saying it was supposed to be a service shot. It didn't work.
"Today?... hmm... today... right... Um... I'm just gonna wing it." -Guess who

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Postby 1731298478 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:56 am

View Original PostNAveryW wrote:Someone wants to translate this, right? Wouldn't it be great to have available information from Anno about the "Kimochi warui" line besides "Maybe she has morning sickness"?


I think this is only a fan interpretation (by "Yuuto"), based upon Anno's comment in the Schizo/Parano interviews that "creation is a masturbation show." Aside from that quote, which I think is the title of one of the chapters of Schizo, I don't think there's any real information.

Basically, the interpretation uses the analogy of a play in a theater staged by Anno, where the audience doesn't know what will happen. By episode 19 of the TV series the actors in the play have removed almost all their clothes, and it goes on from there... then, the scene with Shinji at the start of EoE is supposed to show the audience what has really been going on. "Kimochi Warui" is the phrase summing up the situation.

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Postby Xard » Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:25 pm

View Original PostNAveryW wrote:
The test audience (yes, there was apparently a test audience!) felt disgusted and annoyed at the masturbation scene. Though Anno's intention was for the audience to feel disgusted ("kimochi warui"), he tried to pacify their anger by saying it was supposed to be a service shot. It didn't work.


:hitthetable:

HAHAHAHA OH YOU ANNO

talk about troll.

View Original PostNAveryW wrote:In case anyone's awaiting available materials to translate more, there are a bunch of quotes here (the quotes appear confined to the green text), including previously translated and as of yet untranslated quotes from Schizo and Parano as well as Newtype and other interviews.


So how about this material?

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Postby gwern » Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:16 pm

View Original Post1731298478 wrote:O_O.... すごい~!

I will say, I'm under the impression that the roundtables (and maybe the interviews) are a bit... strange at times, but apparently very revealing. IIRC, I've seen speculation that there was drinking involved.... ^^


Seems likely. If you look at the final photograph in _The Notenki Memoirs_, from the roundtable discussing Takeda, you see they seem to be in a traditional sort of restaurant with cups of sake...

View Original PostLiLi wrote:There are some other books I'm looking into, like that End of Evangelion book attributed to Anno... but before ordering I need to find more info... I gave Khara/Gainax enough money as it is! :


I saw 1 or 2 reviews of it on the EML somewhere back in 97/98; they said basically the same as Reichu's review - don't bother.

View Original Post1731298478 wrote:In the midst of making Eva, I suddenly realized that I had forgotten her. Her very existence. For example, in episode seven, I remembered and added one shot with Rei. I had no attachment to her at all, right? I think that was okay, because in episode eight, she doesn't appear, right? Not even in a single shot.


This doesn't surprise me; I've long suspected that Rei was a shallow character which Anno gave little thought to.

Student: What does Rei like?
Anno: What Rei likes... I haven't thought about it.


View Original PostSeele00TextOnly wrote:So that's what 'Toji Suzuhara' is from... holy cow!


Well, it's interesting to have a little more detail about the plot of the novel, but I'm not sure it tells us anything about Eva.

I mean, heck, The Notenki Memoirs tell us that the friend Anno was speaking of when he said 'Shinji was named after a friend of mine' was the Gainaxer Shinji Higuchi,but that's just trivia.

View Original PostXard wrote: That Anno planned this complex structure of "Oedipal struggles" playing out on multiple levels from start seems to go against/overthrow the common wisdom that Anno only started to dig in psychological themes and books during the halfway point. I've always had problems with this view, namely because the stuff Anno mentions here is painfully obviously psychoanalytically tinted from start but all sources seem to indicate Anno only took the shift in focus during the second half.


Don't forget that Anno is an unreliable narrator. If Anno really intended all that, there ought to be better sources than something he wrote or said years after NGE TV finished. And I don't see much evidence in things like the Proposal or Project Meeting.

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Postby Xard » Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:30 pm

View Original Postgwern wrote:Don't forget that Anno is an unreliable narrator. If Anno really intended all that, there ought to be better sources than something he wrote or said years after NGE TV finished. And I don't see much evidence in things like the Proposal or Project Meeting.


We're talking about thematic, loldeep concerns here. Something Anno has always been unwilling to share. And you most certainly don't write shit like that in frickin Proposals which are supposed to sell the show!

You're being unwarrantedly skeptical here. These interviews were not even conducted "years after" series ended. These are from 1997!

Apparently Anno's "what we were trying to make here" came as a huge shock to most of GAINAX's crew. They had no idea about his deep depression and whatnot. Is is really that unfeasible that he might not share everything with others?

What do you even want? Direct quote from Anno is pretty much best out of show source we can get. It's more reliable and valid than Proposals or Project Meetings in determining Anno's thoughts etc. because those are collaborations between many people with many compromises and are very general in nature.

What Anno says in here fits perfectly what we see in show and theories in vein of what Anno said has been written years before.

Quite frankly I have no idea what you'd count as more "trustworthy" evidence than Anno discussing the show around the time he had just finished it. He's not 100% reliable but he still THE author and source for all eva knowledge outside the show itself.

What, should we now doubt Anno's words that Misato didn't shoot Kaji because he said it after ep 21 had aired?

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Postby esselfortium » Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:40 pm

View Original PostXard wrote:What do you even want? Direct quote from Anno is pretty much best out of show source we can get.

Yup ^_^

View Original PostHideaki Anno in 1997 wrote:One can find whatever message he wants to find in any film or series. I didn't want to tell this or that message in particular, but the fact that you think about it like that is already positive. I did Evangelion to please myself and to please the fans of animation, trying to bring together the largest audience possible.


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Postby Xard » Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:22 pm

I don't get your point. hurrdurr Anno encourages viewers to independent thinking and we should suddenly devalue everything he has ever said about show?

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Postby esselfortium » Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:36 pm

View Original PostXard wrote:I don't get your point.

Anno specifically said that he didn't intend any such message and that it's fans reading into it. If nothing else, it at least furthers Anno's status as a totally unreliable narrator. Even in one-on-one interviews, he contradicts himself pretty frequently, as seen here.

hurrdurr Anno encourages viewers to independent thinking and we should suddenly devalue everything he has ever said about show?

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Postby Xard » Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:08 pm

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:Anno specifically said that he didn't intend any such message and that it's fans reading into it. If nothing else, it at least furthers Anno's status as a totally unreliable narrator. Even in one-on-one interviews, he contradicts himself pretty frequently, as seen here.


The Anno quote you took out just reflects his general mentality, especially at the time. It comes up in footage not having anything to do with eva per se too. What he did in the "Hideaki Anno teaches kids" clip is very similar. People should think for themselves, find their own truths bla bla bla

The thing is many artists say this kind of thing in order to encourage people for their own interprepations and such - but there are limits to their thinking to this extent in practise. Anno's shocked and hostile reaction to Misato shot Kaji theory is enough proof that he won't let just anything fly. Anno's original memo shows him honestly telling his intentions and main themes for eva he wanted to initially express.

I'm not saying Anno's statements can't be inconsistent if we separate them from context and intentions behind them - this is true for everyone. I'm not saying we should take everything he says at face value.

What I do say is that it is 100% reasonable and rational to trust his word in indepth interviews (such as material covered in books this topic is about) and when they precisely fit the contents of the show and do not contradict anything in it, as is the case here. Why don't we assume Toji etc. were named randomly? After all, naming them after Murakami's novel is something Anno propably just made up afterwards! herpderp.

The opposite reaction is, in fact, irrational and based on nothing more than logical possibility that Anno might be lying or talking out of his ass. Logical possibilities are weak proofs.

qwern's statement irked me because it is stupid to assume we have more valuable and reliable source after show itself than Anno's statements.

Don't forget that Anno is an unreliable narrator. If Anno really intended all that, there ought to be better sources than something he wrote or said years after NGE TV finished. And I don't see much evidence in things like the Proposal or Project Meeting.


WHAT BETTER SOURCES? There's no reason to think Proposal or Project Meeting reflects Anno's own intentions any better than this statement. They're collaborative efforts with clear aims (in case of Proposal they're constructed so that show is as easy to sell to producers as possible) and do not dig in deep to the show's mechanics.

If interview conducted right around time Anno had finished eva and was working on EoE is not source of highest order nothing is. I'd rank them way above "Proposal" or "Project Meeting" which do not even correspond with final product in content.

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Postby 1731298478 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:59 am

View Original PostXard wrote: So how about this material?


Here's my attempt, at least, at doing the quotes from Anno.

「ありとあらゆる人が見た時に、自分の鏡となって返ってくるような作りになっている。情報量がやたらと多いし、見た人の投射がそのまま返るようになってますからね。各個人によって感じる面白さも違う」(庵野監督「スキゾ・エヴァンゲリオン」) 

"It's a work that mirrors the self of each and every person that watches it. That's because [the show contains] an excessive amount of information, and the projections of the viewers simply return to them. For each person, the appeal [of the show] is also different." (Schizo)

「ライブ感覚。その時のその状況に合わせて全部つくっている」 
「実際は、「補完計画」て全体の半分ぐらいの話数まで、人類を補完するって、何を補完するんだろうって、ハッキリとは決めずにやってましたからね」(庵野監督「アニメージュ1996年7月号」)

"[The show had] a 'live feeling.' I was creating everything in accordance with the situation at the time."
"The truth is , the 'complementation project,' up until about half-way through the series, I was doing things without having clearly decided [about] the complementation of of human beings, [about] what is being complimented." (Animage July 1996)
http://johakyu.net/lib/2007/07/2007-07-27-000535.php

「人間にオリジナルなんてない。…僕みたいにアニメやマンガしか見ていないと、そこから思い付いたものをパッとやった時には、思い付いたものはただ自分の中で忘れていたもので、必ず何か元ネタがあるんですよ。…ちょっと嫌な気がする」(スキゾ・エヴァンゲリオン)

"[For human beings?], there is no 'original.' ... When those like me, who don't watch anything but anime and manga, suddenly hit upon something, what we discovered will only be something within us we forgot about, there will necessarily be some original [elsewhere]. ... I feel a bit bad [about it]." (Schizo)

Next Anno quote on the webpage is from the last paragraph of this: http://evamonkey.com/writings_anno01.php

「この世界に本当のオリジナルは、自分の人生しかないですから。 …僕らには(テレビという)魔法の箱の中にしか語るものはない。情けないんですけど、仕方ない、そこを認めたところから、スタートだと思うんです。」(スタジオヴォイス96年10月号)

"Because there is no real original in this world but one's life. ... For [my generation, after the political failures of the previous], there was nothing to speak of but what was within the 'magic box' (television). It's pathetic, but we had no other options. I think admitting that is a start." (Studio Voice October 1996)
First part is from Studio Voice here http://johakyu.net/lib/2007/07/2007-07-27-000536.php - but second part seems to be from Newtype here http://home.gamer.com.tw/creationDetail.php?sn=863335

「基本的にエヴァは、僕の人生をフィルムに引き写しているだけなんで、僕が生きているわけだから、物語は終わらない」(スキゾ・エヴァンゲリオン)

"Fundamentally, Eva is just my life copied out onto film. I'm [still] alive, so the story hasn't finished." (Schizo)

「『エヴァ』のキャラクターは全員、僕という人格を中心にできている合成人格なんですけれど…」
「シンジ君は今の僕です」(スキゾ・エヴァンゲリオン)

"The characters of 'Eva' are all composite personalities based around my own personality."
"Shinji-kun is the current me." (Schizo)

 「-そんな状況の中で、それでも庵野さんが新作を手掛ける気になった理由は何なのでしょう。
庵野 もちろん、自分のためです(笑)。モノづくりの理由にはごく、個人的なものが常にあります。それ以上は今、ここで語る必要はないでしょう。
-しかし、それでもオリジナルにこだわるのは?
庵野 それは自分という存在がフィルムに残るからでしょうね」
(NEWTYPE 95年1月号クリエイター対談「庵野秀明×貞本義行」) 

--- What was the reason you wanted to do an original work, despite these circumstances?
Anno: Of course, for myself (laughs). There is always a very personal reason for creating [something]. There is probably no need to say any more [than that] here.
--- Even so, insisting on something original-?
Anno: It's probably so my self-existence will remain within the film.
(Newtype January 1995; Creator's Talk - Anno Hideaki x Yoshiyuki Sadamoto)
http://homepage3.nifty.com/mana/siryou1.htm

「まだ完成していないんですが、1、2話は最近の自分の”気分”が忠実に反映されたフィルムになりそうなんですよ。それに気がついたときに『ああ、よかったな』と思いました。」 
「…『ナディア』よりも、カルトな作品になると思いますよ、こんな”気分”の作品はまずないでしょうから」
(月刊ニュータイプ95年4月号 エヴァ制作開始インタビュー) 

"They're not finished yet, but the first two episodes are likely to faithfully reflect my recent 'feeling.' When I realized [that], I thought, 'Ah, excellent.'"
"I think this will become a 'cult' work, even moreso than Nadia, because works with this sort of 'feeling' will probably be very rare." (Monthly Newtype April 1995; Eva 'Beginning of Production' Interview)
http://homepage3.nifty.com/mana/siryou2.htm

「もっと認識すべきだと思うんですよ。僕らには何もないってことを」
「…僕と同じで何もない人だと思う」(スキゾ・エヴァンゲリオン) 

"I think that [one?] has to be more cognizant of that. The fact that we have nothing."
"I think [Murakami] is the same as me, an empty person." (Schizo)

「オリジナルが存在するとしたら、僕の人生しかない。…それ以外は全て模造といっても否定はできない」(スキゾ・エヴァンゲリオン)

"If we assume that an 'original' exists, it's nothing but my life. ... I can't deny that everything else may be counterfeit." (Schizo)
Last edited by 1731298478 on Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby Xard » Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:11 pm

Awesome and fascinating stuff. Everything in these quotes fall in line with what Anno has said elsewhere (and I swear I've seen couple of these quotes before) so there wasn't much new info.

This one was most interesting:

"It's a work that mirrors the self of each and every person that watches it. That's because [the show contains] an excessive amount of information, and the projections of the viewers simply return to them. For each person, the appeal [of the show] is also different." (Schizo)


To me this seems to be affirmation of the case that Anno intentionally started to overload the audience with information in second half as in to make any one, all encompassing interprepation impossible

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Postby NAveryW » Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:32 pm

View Original PostXard wrote:(and I swear I've seen couple of these quotes before)
Some of them are from Newtype articles that have been translated in their entirety.

Mainly it's nice to have a concrete quote that everything was made up only as the time came, which we already pretty much knew. But now it's possible to point to one specific quote.
"Today?... hmm... today... right... Um... I'm just gonna wing it." -Guess who

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Postby Xard » Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:52 pm

View Original PostNAveryW wrote:S
Mainly it's nice to have a concrete quote that everything was made up only as the time came, which we already pretty much knew. But now it's possible to point to one specific quote.


Maybe this silences those silly voices who claim Rebuild is doomed to failure because Anno had no clear plans made beforehand :rolleyes:

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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:03 pm

View Original PostXard wrote:Maybe this silences those silly voices who claim Rebuild is doomed to failure because Anno had no clear plans made beforehand :rolleyes:

No, it won't. It doesn't really come as a news that Anno didn't have clear plans even when he started NGE (just compare preliminary stuff like the Proposal, things that were being written like the draft of episode 24 the final product...). Only fools would believe that he has been enlightened by God like St. Paul (but then he lost himself again since he made the Rebuild).
So let’s make a wish.
“Please let me redo again.”
No matter how many times

From the book “All About Nagisa Kaworu: A Child of Evangelion”.

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Postby esselfortium » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:21 pm

View Original PostXard wrote:Maybe this silences those silly voices who claim Rebuild is doomed to failure because Anno had no clear plans made beforehand :rolleyes:

Troll elsewhere, thanks.

Like NAW and Shinchan said, this is just confirmation of what most of us already knew. Finally. :P


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