So that Ritsuko/Seele scene

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So that Ritsuko/Seele scene

Postby TonyTH » Mon Nov 15, 2010 6:33 pm

Yeah, the one where she was nude? What the hell was up with that scene? And there was something said that Gendo sent her instead of Rei. So Seele wanted to see Rei naked? WHAT IS SEELE REALLY UP TO?!

Not really a serious discussion, but it was an odd little scene I could never figure out. Anyone know what was up with it?

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Postby Mr. Tines » Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:02 pm

The analysis in the thread http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic.php?t=3759 especially in this post http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic.php?p=119198#119198 remains definitive, if controversial to this day.
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Postby esselfortium » Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:40 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:The analysis in the thread http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic.php?t=3759 especially in this post http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic.php?p=119198#119198 remains definitive, if controversial to this day.

If the theory is controversial enough that it has to be stated, how can it also be definitive? (:|

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Postby TehDonutKing » Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:44 pm

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:If the theory is controversial enough that it has to be stated, how can it also be definitive? (:|


The basics of the thread seem definitive, while the rape part is still debated quite fiercely.
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Postby Lucretius » Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:18 pm

Ritsuko's rapist:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8Kyi0WNg40

He shuddered a bit, remembering the somewhat creepy level of detail Kaji had gone into, while rubbing a watermelon in a disturbingly sexual way.

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Postby TonyTH » Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:02 am

Aw, even a scene I find to be simple has ten pages of discussion here. Thanks a lot guys. I love this place, it's helped me figure out so much.

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Postby skikes » Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:30 pm

Can everyone stop linking newcomers to that topic. It's like a virus. It will spread until it is fact.

Everytime I see someone post that Ritsuko was raped, to a newcomer, I'm telling them that Asuka at the end of EoE is an amalgamation of Asuka, Rei and Misato.
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Postby Timstuff » Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:41 pm

She just got through the line at the TSA.
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Postby Allemann » Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:19 am

Ritsuko wasn't raped.

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Postby Shin-seiki » Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:13 am

View Original PostAllemann wrote:Ritsuko wasn't raped.
I beg to differ; the case that has been made that she was, is, in fact, a slam-dunk. The theory was accepted, on the merits, by a wide consensus of forum members, back when it was originally proposed. It was later attacked by a certain reprehensible troll, who, it must be emphasized, did not so much as lay a glove on it argument-wise. For some incomprehensible reason, some of our newer members like to carry on as if there's some defect to the validity of the case, but it's a perfectly reasonable and credible theory; is, was, always will be.

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Re: So that Ritsuko/Seele scene

Postby skikes » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:58 pm

View Original PostTonyTH wrote:Hey eva geeks, fill my head with LIES


Well hey there TonyTH, did you know that the Asuka we see at the End of EoE isn't actually Asuka? It's an amalgamation of Asuka, Rei and Misato. No really! Look at her eye's, they are the same colour as Misato's and her bandages perfectly reflect Rei's bandages from the beginning of the series. Don't believe me? Listen to the commentary track of Manga's EoE release, the director confirms this.
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Re: So that Ritsuko/Seele scene

Postby Azathoth » Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:08 pm

View Original Postskikes wrote:exactly what you said you were going to say


If you don't like the theory, you're free to ignore it. Or, you know, seek to disprove it.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:54 pm

And now we see why I wrote

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:The analysis ... remains definitive, if controversial to this day.


as there's never any counter argument raised, just a lot of "That's ICKY! I don't want to go there!!" like it was taken as an affront to the self-image.
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Postby esselfortium » Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:03 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:And now we see why I wrote

Mr. Tines wrote:The analysis ... remains definitive, if controversial to this day.


as there's never any counter argument raised, just a lot of "That's ICKY! I don't want to go there!!" like it was taken as an affront to the self-image.

Uh. Excuse me?

The counterargument is pretty straightforward.

1) Would such a major plot point have been glossed over so thoroughly, particularly in a show such as NGE where mature themes were already frequently death with?
2) Is this added event required to make Ritsuko's breakdown believable?

I would argue that the answer to both questions is "no," particularly considering that the 15 or so years spanned between the show's airing and the proposal of the theory weren't exactly filled with questions of what Ritsuko could possibly be upset about. It's already known. Adding an offscreen rape to the equation only dilutes the point of why she's so broken by her realizations.

If you want to believe Ritsuko was raped offscreen, that's your prerogative, but please don't try to claim that the number of legitimate arguments brought up against it didn't actually exist. If you're so confident in the theory's findings, there should be no need to cover up or discredit opposing viewpoints.

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Postby skikes » Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:53 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:And now we see why I wrote
as there's never any counter argument raised, just a lot of "That's ICKY! I don't want to go there!!" like it was taken as an affront to the self-image.


I've made my thoughts known on the subject in one of the other 'Ritsuko got raped' topics and I don't care to repeat myself. I would link to it if I could find it.

Though even if I did it wouldn't disprove anything. People believe what they want to believe regardless of how much evidence there is against it, or for it for that matter. (I'm looking at you flying spaghetti monster)

I could claim that Rei was repeatedly raped throughout her life by Gendo. There's no onscreen evidence against it but I could claim that she shows all the signs of a sexually abused child. She is emotionally distant, can't get close to others, suicidal, follows Gendo's orders without question and is always naked in private with him... I could go on. Now try to disprove that.

I don't think using the "People don't want to believe it because it's shocking" holds up. I think people want to believe it because they think it's shocking. It's not shocking. The only thing you're doing is turning an emotionally complex plot into something far less than what it is.
You want rape? Watch Urotsukidoji. You want to see a women have a powerful emotional breakdown and reach her last straw because the man she loves has chosen a child over her, watch Evangelion.
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Postby Seele00TextOnly » Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:02 pm

View Original PostShin-seiki wrote:It was later attacked by a certain reprehensible troll, who, it must be emphasized, did not so much as lay a glove on it argument-wise.

EXCUSE ME? I'm not sure who you are referring to as a troll, but there were certainly other attacks on the theory that were much more constructive, thoughtful, and rational. Casting such a wide sweeping strawman dismissal is disgusting. I RESPECTED you, man. I cannot believe the attitude I just saw in your post.

I refer anyone interested to this discussion that took place more recently and has yet to be linked in this thread unfortunately. It's nice and shows for most parts both sides acting like reasonable people, something that apparently meant nothing looking at current sentiments.

It is truly reprehensible the way that opposition to this continues to be dismissed as being based on 'squeemishness' or other such condescending nonsense.

I submit that the 'well it's obvious she was raped' crowd should provide any evidence whatsoever that this holds any water among the Japanese fanbase, because so much of the rape argument folks insist this is obvious in the native language and context. Show me the Japanese fandom reacting to this ridiculous assertion. Put up or shut up already. Or for gods sake at least stop being so hideously pompous about this whole affair.

EDIT: Here is the link to the beginnings of my original alternative interpretations argument, the 'Broken Heart' theory.

EDIT 2: Additional crucial argumentation.
Last edited by Seele00TextOnly on Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:42 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby thewayneiac » Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:24 pm

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:The counterargument is pretty straightforward.

1) Would such a major plot point have been glossed over so thoroughly, particularly in a show such as NGE where mature themes were already frequently death with?
2) Is this added event required to make Ritsuko's breakdown believable?


Neither of those address the evidence presented in the original "Ritsuko was raped" thread. Thus they do not constitute a counter argument at all.
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Postby Crystal Wolf » Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:30 pm

View Original Postthewayneiac wrote:Neither of those address the evidence presented in the original "Ritsuko was raped" thread. Thus they do not constitute a counter argument at all.


How in any way does the fact that there is no evidence supporting this ridiculous theory disqualify these two points from being a valid counter-argument?
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Postby Azathoth » Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:55 pm

You know, I do find it sort of amusing that all anyone is doing in this thread is whinging "I don't like this theory/I don't like that you don't like it," but really now, people, grow up or get out. Ignoring the evidence the other side presents and refusing to even start a dialogue about it does not lead anyone to enlightenment. So, with that in mind:

I consider the theory that Ritsuko was raped to be quite likely: from Seele's point of view, there's no reason not to. It is quite evident that they do not care even slightly for normal human decency, and it is in their interests that Ritsuko be as psychologically broken as possible. And even if they didn't directly order it: they're already having faceless mooks strip her naked; what do they care if the faceless mooks decide to have some fun as well? Who knows, it may well have been a situation where Keel just tossed out the order "Make sure she's not in any mood to jerk us around" and let them fill in the gaps. Discuss, as opposed to bitching.
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Postby skikes » Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:09 pm

View Original PostAzathoth wrote:I consider the theory that Ritsuko was raped to be quite likely: from Seele's point of view, there's no reason not to. It is quite evident that they do not care even slightly for normal human decency, and it is in their interests that Ritsuko be as psychologically broken as possible. And even if they didn't directly order it: they're already having faceless mooks strip her naked; what do they care if the faceless mooks decide to have some fun as well? Who knows, it may well have been a situation where Keel just tossed out the order "Make sure she's not in any mood to jerk us around" and let them fill in the gaps. Discuss, as opposed to bitching.


So you think it's likely, without any knowledge of the accusations against her and without a direct order from their superiors, Seele security raped one of the leading personnel of nerv on nothing but a hunch without leaving a bruise or a scratch or any sign of struggle on her body? That is one sound theory. :whistle:

I know your gut reaction is going to be to argue the point but please just think about how silly that sounds.

I think it's quite clear she was naked for security reasons and felt 'humiliated' by the experience of being stripped of her clothes, her rank and her dignity... All at the hands of Gendo.
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