In the scene (flashback i guess?) where Shinji was begging Asuka to be with him. Asuka says that Shinji has repeatedly jerked off to her(reitared in the trains scene but also kind of implied that she did it too?? idk) and or sexually assaulted her in some way. But we never see Shinji do anything like that except that one scene. What im wondering is, Is what we watch (as in NGE) a reality Shinji made up in his mind to make it look like everbody else was in the wrong while he was the victim? orrrr am i getting the whole plot wrong.

Instrumentality is a mind-meld. This is a bit more literal in the final 2 episodes of the series, as several characters get an overt segment. EoE's is a bit more phantasmagoric, but the principle is the same. The implication is that Asuka is now aware of anything Shinji has done in private. She's reacting to that intro scene as if she was in the audience.

This is further confirmed by the final scene and the final line, "kimochi warui." I don't know if the recent/updated Netflix/Gkids subtitles rectified this, or anything, but there's been a long-standing instance of subtext lost in the translation. The original English translation was "how disgusting" but it can be translated myriad ways, and has connotations because of what specific situations it can be used, more specific than "how disgusting" which, you know, you could say in, like, thousands of cases instead of hundreds.

According to Asuka's voice actor, the final line (which there were several possible ideas toyed with) was the result of being asked how she would react "if someone broke into her home, but instead of stealing anything, pleasured themselves over her."

So even at the end, she's still reacting to that one moment all the way at the beginning of the film.

Post above basically sums it up, but to directly answer your question, I don't think NGE/EoE is, at any point, a fabrication of Shinji's mind or anything like that. I think it's more likely that these 'other times' Asuka may be referring to are moments of Shinji's life we as the audience don't see.

In my opinion, it can be whatever you interpret it as, I didn't even notice that but on my 32nd rewatch of EOE, I will look for it!

Sinan wrote:Asuka says that Shinji has repeatedly jerked off to her(reitared in the trains scene but also kind of implied that she did it too?? idk)

The direct translation of this phrase in Japanese is "I know that you use me as a side dish."
It's a Japanese expression that means a person who is infatuated with another person in a romantic or sexual way, but doesn't have the guts to confess or act upon his emotions directly. Looking in from the outside.

Her whole problem with Shinji is that she know that he has feelings for her, but is not willing to act upon them (in a direct way) because he doesn't want to make a choice. He's afraid of the rejection, heartbreak to the point where he would rather not make any choice at all. He's too afraid of intimacy, unless it's 100% guaranteed that he will not get hurt. So, almost never.

I don't think that the "jerking off" comment is specifically about the hospital scene, but more about Asuka's and Shinji's relationships in general. The Hospital is the culmination of how broken Shinji is. He's so unable to express himself directly, so afraid of connection, that all he can do is masturbate, instead of finding words or help Asuka. He loves her, but all he can do is this.

Of, course, Asuka is equally to blame here, as she didn't even give Shinji a chance to express himself, as she shuts him down almost in every attempt at him doing so. Asuka herself is afraid of connection, and wants Shinji to tear down her walls. But she also is terrified of anyone, including herself, to see what's inside of her heart.

I guess, at the end of the day, Shinji getting mad and chocking Asuka, was the first time when he genuinely expressed his emotions, without hiding behind a mask. He showed Asuka, that he actually cared about her rejection, that it actually caused him pain. Rather than passively take it as he always did. And the fact that he rejected instrumentality, kind of shows that he was ready for pain and rejection of the real world. Maybe his honesty and change was the reason Asuka returned to him at the beach.

Are we to assume that it is really her, communicating with him mentally?

Or is it Shinji's mental model or projection of her as he processes his own soul during instrumentality?

Darth Plato wrote:Are we to assume that it is really her, communicating with him mentally?

Or is it Shinji's mental model or projection of her as he processes his own soul during instrumentality?

Instrumentality is the souls of all people, alive and dead (we see Kaji and Asuka there too) with their A.T. Fields gone uniting in a single orgy of minds and hearts. That's the point of instrumentality that was stated by Gendo and Seele multiple times. So would it be TV ending or EOE, those are actual souls/minds of people.

As was stated by Ritsuko, Lilith and Adam open up the Chamber of Guf; a dimension where souls reside (or it possibly was a black moon, not sure). It was emptied on earth when Lilith and Adam arrived. Souls of alien race were placed to wait until the process of Lilith's evolution creates humans and they will be able to reborn in human form.

EVA was heavily inspired by Space Runaway Ideon, and we can see it as both sequel and possibly a prequel to Ideon, where similar thing happened.

So, that confirms that souls of people can exist on earth without bodies, to wait their turn to incarnate. And even after death, they stay on earth in some form. When Instrumentality began, all souls were transferred back into Lilith's womb, where they initially came from.

I know what instrumentality is, but I am just questioning the assumption that simply because people can communicate soul to soul, that this is always what we are seeing in the instrumentality sequences. People do have models of others in their mind that appear when they imagine conversations with said individuals, when they dream, or when they hallucinate. So It seems reasonable to me that in some cases, what people experience during those scenes is an interaction with their own projections of others. I am not saying that this is the only thing that happens.

Darth Plato wrote:I know what instrumentality is, but I am just questioning the assumption that simply because people can communicate soul to soul, that this is always what we are seeing in the instrumentality sequences. People do have models of others in their mind that appear when they imagine conversations with said individuals, when they dream, or when they hallucinate. So It seems reasonable to me that in some cases, what people experience during those scenes is an interaction with their own projections of others. I am not saying that this is the only thing that happens.

Which version of instrumentality? There is NGE, EOE and Rebuild. In NGE, yes, it seems like we see both projection of someone in other's minds, and the real soul. I EOE and Rebuild however, there are only Souls, and that's pretty easy to see, because they say and do things the other party can not know or predict. There is conflict and direct influence.

I always figured the show ending was usable to understand EoE. But headcanons may differ...

Didn't Anno say that 25' and 26' were external portrayals of the same ending, whereas the show only gave us internal events?

That is, they are not meant to contradict each other and are not necessarily "alternatives."

Darth Plato wrote:I always figured the show ending was usable to understand EoE. But headcanons may differ...

Didn't Anno say that 25' and 26' were external portrayals of the same ending, whereas the show only gave us internal events?

That is, they are not meant to contradict each other and are not necessarily "alternatives."

He didn't say that. He said in the interview that EOE is a different or the second ending. What he meant is up to debate. EVA fans argue about EOE being an alternative ending or an external version of the same ending for decades now. Pick your poison I guess.

I personally think of them as different endings, because they are very different in tone. In NGE Gendo is in charge of instrumentality and it is successful, and in EOE Shinji is in charge of instrumentality and he rejects it. I came to that conclusion because Gendo gets eaten by EVA 01 in EOE, and in NGE it's Shinji that gets eaten. Their roles are reversed.

NGE is an obvious acceptance of Instrumentality in tone of what's been said and showed.
EOE is the rejection of Instrumentality.

They are just too different to be the same I think.

It's worth noting that some of the worst indicators about Gendo (not all, but some) happen ONLY in EoE, and of course he seems fully happy and rehabilitated in the TV instrumentality. But one may also wonder if that is the real Gendo when it comes to interactions with Shinji.

Without EoE, one may come off with a different impression of Gendo in other words.

But there are dead people clapping for Shinji too. Should one assume their souls joined instrumentality although they had died? That might be a headcanon choice, but I suspect it is more likely to be selected if one chooses after watching EoE where people who die before instrumentality begins are definitely out there in the sea of LCL or whatever.

Darth Plato wrote:But there are dead people clapping for Shinji too. Should one assume their souls joined instrumentality although they had died? That might be a headcanon choice, but I suspect it is more likely to be selected if one chooses after watching EoE where people who die before instrumentality begins are definitely out there in the sea of LCL or whatever.

What do you mean? They are all died. Their bodies disappeared and their souls were released. All of them are ended up in instrumentality. One doesn't need to physically be present in the pool of LCL to be a part of instrumentality. It's just that they died as their body's dissolved. We see Misato exploded, there is no way her LCL would not evaporate completely. But she is still in instrumentality, like Kaji, Asuka and the rest.

Why would instrumentality equate with death?

Humans souls continue to exist, communicate, and experience one another in instrumentality; they are in the LCL the way Shinji was when he got absorbed inside of unit one.

But if a person's soul departed before instrumentality began, it appears quantum Rei can recover it, or something.

She basically becomes God, or a powerful kami might be more accurate.

Darth Plato wrote:Why would instrumentality equate with death?

How else would you call an event when your body explodes?

Darth Plato wrote: Humans souls continue to exist, communicate, and experience one another in instrumentality; they are in the LCL the way Shinji was when he got absorbed inside of unit one.

And you remember what happened to the LCL he was absorbed in? It leaked out. Until his mother recreated his body from EVA 01's core.

Darth Plato wrote: But if a person's soul departed before instrumentality began, it appears quantum Rei can recover it, or something.

She basically becomes God, or a powerful kami might be more accurate.

That is a head canon that overcomplicate things.

1. Lilith has a potential to gather souls in the black moon.
2. For a soul to be free, a body needs to die. It's doesn't matter how, by exploding into LCL or by a bullet or explosion. The result is the same: a person becomes a soul.
3. LCL is like a medium which connects the world of the dead and the world of the living. The world of Instrumentality and the real world. Like building blocks from which every single living being can be recreated.
4. Actual atoms of a person who exploded into LCL does not save any information about the person, it all becomes a homogenized goo.
5. LCL is primordial soup. Souls exist in a different realm, separated from physical bodies after bodies are destroyed.

Darth Plato wrote:Why would instrumentality equate with death?

Because the Evangelion Philosophy, which I beleave is correct, is that we are defined by our relationships with others, thus the absense of others is the same as non-existence or death. If instrumentality had been completed all would have become one. There would have been no others to define us. The reason you see the souls still communitacing as individuals in ep. 26 and EOE is that the process is still incomplete. Thankfully Shinji stops it before it is completed. If Shinji had let the souls merge into one being the process would certainly have been irreversible.

If I may divert off of this tangent, my point was that for souls to be a part of the instrumentality mind-meld, they seemingly did not have to survive until the instrumentality process began. So perhaps people can run into their ancestors....?

That might sound silly, but it would be a really interesting continuation of the show, potentially. And people can also come back, apparently, at least in the EoE version.

But seriously, are we to imagine Kaji is really present?

Sinan wrote:Asuka says that Shinji has repeatedly jerked off to her

She probably means that he jerked off in private, in a more normal setting. (aside from that one time, when he was hardly of sound mind; though it certainly that doesn't make it any better for her)

Most teenage boys have probably beaten their meat while thinking of an attractive classmate at some point.

Instrumentality is a melding of each other's minds so everyone can see each other's secret feelings & private thoughts.
See also how Shinji & Asuka react to Kaji & Misato having sex earlier, or Misato commenting on them kissing etc.

Stuff that is normally private / that you wouldn't want to see gets exposed: Your parents (or parental figures) having sex, your children making out, other ppl's jerk-off fantasies of you...

Shinji comes to learn that there's normally a good reason why others might want to keep their thoughts private... & it means the others get to see HIS private thoughts, too, & Asuka largely isn't impressed with them, to say the least.

He thought it would mean that everyone automatically understands him & hence he wouldn't have to fear rejection but instead she sees right thru him, sees how he just sees her as a sex/comfort object ("side dish" is synonymous with fap material, in other animes I've seen it used as an euphemism for "dirty magazine"), that he actually likes Rei ("If I can't have you to myself I don't want you at all") & only comes to her because he's scared of everyone else - and hence, her answer is quite understandably "No". She can tell it's insincere.
(although she was kinda guilty of the same thing in ep 15 - and in the end plops herself down beside him also because she didn't want to be alone - this is also spelled out more explicitly in the extended live action scene, if you've seen it.
Notice how they're in the same outfits as in ep 15 where they make out, suggesting the kitchen scene is kinda saying out loud what went unsaid/ was only expressed subtextually there.
Asuka is the one using him as a comfort/sex object, later in ep 22 she complains that he didn't "hold" her at that time - same word sex euphemism in ep 25 when Misato talks about Kaji & how she's not sure if she actually likes him or just effed him out of loneniless - in her case it was probably a mix of both, as in their earlier relationship she chickened out when things got serious - though there's also an aspect of both their survivor's guilt from SI giving them a sense they don't 'deserve' happiness.
There was that alternate song that almost god used instead of 'komm süßer tod' that the strangulation as a revenge / revenge fantasy for how he felt used in ep 15:
"kissed you with a kiss that wasn't true / wasn't you at all" etc.
The kiss was borderline dubcon with how she strongarmed him into it.
Also it's implied that her pushing him into hot coffee actually happened in the real world (at least, a cofee machine was spilled in ep 24' after he told her of Kaji's death; Maybe it didn't actually hit him.) - plus she's been bullying him since day one.
Though ovsly it doesn't remotely justify what he did later, which is unambigously portrayed as a childish misguided revenge that just makes everything worse.
Instead of feeling powerful or gratified he instantly regrets it & feels even worse about himself. (partially to his credit - like he gets that was not ok & probably wouldn't have done it if he didn't have to mercy kill a comrade with his own hands the day before and was correspondingly loopy)

Basically a heck of a toxic stew / crab bucket attraction going on there from both sides, but it's less that either of them is some evil villain, but that they're lonely, horny, inexperienced & lacking any good role models. They're both young & dumb and the adults ain't doing a good job supervising them.)

In the state he's in he doesn't take the rejection well & starts instrumentality mostly out of spite ("No one cares about me so they can all just die")/ to erase the 'other' that could reject him (hence why it's depicted as him cracking her neck), despite Rei telling him he kinda misunderstood it / to consider it more - in the end she seems to go along with it because her time on earth also kinda sucked ("the world is filled with emptiness & loneliness...")

Note that it's implied Asuka resisted the fusion to the last/ most out of anyone. Her voice is the last one heard in the chorus of random blending voices ("I'd rather die than do it with you!"), and calling him a coward when the deed is done (while Misato & Rei are more accepting) - though, of course in the end he comes to conclude that it's not a real solution / no better / basically the same as not existing.

He goes back... thereby accepting that the world will contain rejection again. & he prompty gets it / gets called disgusting.
But this means that the potential for happiness and/or more positive interaction also exists again in the future.
This time he doesn't go thru with attempting to kill her / accepts that he has to coexist with ppl who reject him & whose thoughts he can't always know.