In the scene (flashback i guess?) where Shinji was begging Asuka to be with him. Asuka says that Shinji has repeatedly jerked off to her(reitared in the trains scene but also kind of implied that she did it too?? idk) and or sexually assaulted her in some way. But we never see Shinji do anything like that except that one scene. What im wondering is, Is what we watch (as in NGE) a reality Shinji made up in his mind to make it look like everbody else was in the wrong while he was the victim? orrrr am i getting the whole plot wrong.

Instrumentality is a mind-meld. This is a bit more literal in the final 2 episodes of the series, as several characters get an overt segment. EoE's is a bit more phantasmagoric, but the principle is the same. The implication is that Asuka is now aware of anything Shinji has done in private. She's reacting to that intro scene as if she was in the audience.

This is further confirmed by the final scene and the final line, "kimochi warui." I don't know if the recent/updated Netflix/Gkids subtitles rectified this, or anything, but there's been a long-standing instance of subtext lost in the translation. The original English translation was "how disgusting" but it can be translated myriad ways, and has connotations because of what specific situations it can be used, more specific than "how disgusting" which, you know, you could say in, like, thousands of cases instead of hundreds.

According to Asuka's voice actor, the final line (which there were several possible ideas toyed with) was the result of being asked how she would react "if someone broke into her home, but instead of stealing anything, pleasured themselves over her."

So even at the end, she's still reacting to that one moment all the way at the beginning of the film.

Post above basically sums it up, but to directly answer your question, I don't think NGE/EoE is, at any point, a fabrication of Shinji's mind or anything like that. I think it's more likely that these 'other times' Asuka may be referring to are moments of Shinji's life we as the audience don't see.

In my opinion, it can be whatever you interpret it as, I didn't even notice that but on my 32nd rewatch of EOE, I will look for it!

Sinan wrote:Asuka says that Shinji has repeatedly jerked off to her(reitared in the trains scene but also kind of implied that she did it too?? idk)

The direct translation of this phrase in Japanese is "I know that you use me as a side dish."
It's a Japanese expression that means a person who is infatuated with another person in a romantic or sexual way, but doesn't have the guts to confess or act upon his emotions directly. Looking in from the outside.

Her whole problem with Shinji is that she know that he has feelings for her, but is not willing to act upon them (in a direct way) because he doesn't want to make a choice. He's afraid of the rejection, heartbreak to the point where he would rather not make any choice at all. He's too afraid of intimacy, unless it's 100% guaranteed that he will not get hurt. So, almost never.

I don't think that the "jerking off" comment is specifically about the hospital scene, but more about Asuka's and Shinji's relationships in general. The Hospital is the culmination of how broken Shinji is. He's so unable to express himself directly, so afraid of connection, that all he can do is masturbate, instead of finding words or help Asuka. He loves her, but all he can do is this.

Of, course, Asuka is equally to blame here, as she didn't even give Shinji a chance to express himself, as she shuts him down almost in every attempt at him doing so. Asuka herself is afraid of connection, and wants Shinji to tear down her walls. But she also is terrified of anyone, including herself, to see what's inside of her heart.

I guess, at the end of the day, Shinji getting mad and chocking Asuka, was the first time when he genuinely expressed his emotions, without hiding behind a mask. He showed Asuka, that he actually cared about her rejection, that it actually caused him pain. Rather than passively take it as he always did. And the fact that he rejected instrumentality, kind of shows that he was ready for pain and rejection of the real world. Maybe his honesty and change was the reason Asuka returned to him at the beach.

Are we to assume that it is really her, communicating with him mentally?

Or is it Shinji's mental model or projection of her as he processes his own soul during instrumentality?

Darth Plato wrote:Are we to assume that it is really her, communicating with him mentally?

Or is it Shinji's mental model or projection of her as he processes his own soul during instrumentality?

Instrumentality is the souls of all people, alive and dead (we see Kaji and Asuka there too) with their A.T. Fields gone uniting in a single orgy of minds and hearts. That's the point of instrumentality that was stated by Gendo and Seele multiple times. So would it be TV ending or EOE, those are actual souls/minds of people.

As was stated by Ritsuko, Lilith and Adam open up the Chamber of Guf; a dimension where souls reside (or it possibly was a black moon, not sure). It was emptied on earth when Lilith and Adam arrived. Souls of alien race were placed to wait until the process of Lilith's evolution creates humans and they will be able to reborn in human form.

EVA was heavily inspired by Space Runaway Ideon, and we can see it as both sequel and possibly a prequel to Ideon, where similar thing happened.

So, that confirms that souls of people can exist on earth without bodies, to wait their turn to incarnate. And even after death, they stay on earth in some form. When Instrumentality began, all souls were transferred back into Lilith's womb, where they initially came from.

I know what instrumentality is, but I am just questioning the assumption that simply because people can communicate soul to soul, that this is always what we are seeing in the instrumentality sequences. People do have models of others in their mind that appear when they imagine conversations with said individuals, when they dream, or when they hallucinate. So It seems reasonable to me that in some cases, what people experience during those scenes is an interaction with their own projections of others. I am not saying that this is the only thing that happens.

Darth Plato wrote:I know what instrumentality is, but I am just questioning the assumption that simply because people can communicate soul to soul, that this is always what we are seeing in the instrumentality sequences. People do have models of others in their mind that appear when they imagine conversations with said individuals, when they dream, or when they hallucinate. So It seems reasonable to me that in some cases, what people experience during those scenes is an interaction with their own projections of others. I am not saying that this is the only thing that happens.

Which version of instrumentality? There is NGE, EOE and Rebuild. In NGE, yes, it seems like we see both projection of someone in other's minds, and the real soul. I EOE and Rebuild however, there are only Souls, and that's pretty easy to see, because they say and do things the other party can not know or predict. There is conflict and direct influence.

I always figured the show ending was usable to understand EoE. But headcanons may differ...

Didn't Anno say that 25' and 26' were external portrayals of the same ending, whereas the show only gave us internal events?

That is, they are not meant to contradict each other and are not necessarily "alternatives."

Darth Plato wrote:I always figured the show ending was usable to understand EoE. But headcanons may differ...

Didn't Anno say that 25' and 26' were external portrayals of the same ending, whereas the show only gave us internal events?

That is, they are not meant to contradict each other and are not necessarily "alternatives."

He didn't say that. He said in the interview that EOE is a different or the second ending. What he meant is up to debate. EVA fans argue about EOE being an alternative ending or an external version of the same ending for decades now. Pick your poison I guess.

I personally think of them as different endings, because they are very different in tone. In NGE Gendo is in charge of instrumentality and it is successful, and in EOE Shinji is in charge of instrumentality and he rejects it. I came to that conclusion because Gendo gets eaten by EVA 01 in EOE, and in NGE it's Shinji that gets eaten. Their roles are reversed.

NGE is an obvious acceptance of Instrumentality in tone of what's been said and showed.
EOE is the rejection of Instrumentality.

They are just too different to be the same I think.

It's worth noting that some of the worst indicators about Gendo (not all, but some) happen ONLY in EoE, and of course he seems fully happy and rehabilitated in the TV instrumentality. But one may also wonder if that is the real Gendo when it comes to interactions with Shinji.

Without EoE, one may come off with a different impression of Gendo in other words.

But there are dead people clapping for Shinji too. Should one assume their souls joined instrumentality although they had died? That might be a headcanon choice, but I suspect it is more likely to be selected if one chooses after watching EoE where people who die before instrumentality begins are definitely out there in the sea of LCL or whatever.

Darth Plato wrote:But there are dead people clapping for Shinji too. Should one assume their souls joined instrumentality although they had died? That might be a headcanon choice, but I suspect it is more likely to be selected if one chooses after watching EoE where people who die before instrumentality begins are definitely out there in the sea of LCL or whatever.

What do you mean? They are all died. Their bodies disappeared and their souls were released. All of them are ended up in instrumentality. One doesn't need to physically be present in the pool of LCL to be a part of instrumentality. It's just that they died as their body's dissolved. We see Misato exploded, there is no way her LCL would not evaporate completely. But she is still in instrumentality, like Kaji, Asuka and the rest.

Why would instrumentality equate with death?

Humans souls continue to exist, communicate, and experience one another in instrumentality; they are in the LCL the way Shinji was when he got absorbed inside of unit one.

But if a person's soul departed before instrumentality began, it appears quantum Rei can recover it, or something.

She basically becomes God, or a powerful kami might be more accurate.

Darth Plato wrote:Why would instrumentality equate with death?

How else would you call an event when your body explodes?

Darth Plato wrote: Humans souls continue to exist, communicate, and experience one another in instrumentality; they are in the LCL the way Shinji was when he got absorbed inside of unit one.

And you remember what happened to the LCL he was absorbed in? It leaked out. Until his mother recreated his body from EVA 01's core.

Darth Plato wrote: But if a person's soul departed before instrumentality began, it appears quantum Rei can recover it, or something.

She basically becomes God, or a powerful kami might be more accurate.

That is a head canon that overcomplicate things.

1. Lilith has a potential to gather souls in the black moon.
2. For a soul to be free, a body needs to die. It's doesn't matter how, by exploding into LCL or by a bullet or explosion. The result is the same: a person becomes a soul.
3. LCL is like a medium which connects the world of the dead and the world of the living. The world of Instrumentality and the real world. Like building blocks from which every single living being can be recreated.
4. Actual atoms of a person who exploded into LCL does not save any information about the person, it all becomes a homogenized goo.
5. LCL is primordial soup. Souls exist in a different realm, separated from physical bodies after bodies are destroyed.

Darth Plato wrote:Why would instrumentality equate with death?

Because the Evangelion Philosophy, which I beleave is correct, is that we are defined by our relationships with others, thus the absense of others is the same as non-existence or death. If instrumentality had been completed all would have become one. There would have been no others to define us. The reason you see the souls still communitacing as individuals in ep. 26 and EOE is that the process is still incomplete. Thankfully Shinji stops it before it is completed. If Shinji had let the souls merge into one being the process would certainly have been irreversible.