They never even mentioned anything about this angel, did Anno just forget about it?

Theoretically killed offscreen; but even the 12th Angel was handled poorly and we at least got to see that one.

IIRC someone floated around the theory of the Key being the embryonic nervous system of the 11th, but lack of popularity has the idea lost to time. Not to mention the Key ended up being a poor plot device in and of itself. The lack of a fully fleshed out Q CRC probably doesn’t help.

you don't understand, there isn't space for an angel when we need to put more Gendo scenes on the movie or sending seeds to space.

Recently, Anno has mentioned that his original plan for the Q movie was a movie just after Ha (where Shinji wouldn't appear). However, he changed his plans, because he though a movie without the main character wouldn't be adequate.

So, the 11th Angel would likely appear in that movie.

I think that the 11th angel was humanity. Remember, after the 10th angel died, it was humans responsible for N3I/3I; and since we know that Kaworu as the 13th is an anomality and the 12th has some fairly strong subtext that it was artificially engineered (although so does the 9th), humanity would fit snugly in the position as being the final "natural" angel

Blockio wrote:I think that the 11th angel was humanity. Remember, after the 10th angel died, it was humans responsible for N3I/3I; and since we know that Kaworu as the 13th is an anomality and the 12th has some fairly strong subtext that it was artificially engineered (although so does the 9th), humanity would fit snugly in the position as being the final "natural" angel

This is interesting, but I think it's inconsistent with Gendo's line of "we still need to get rid of 8 angels", as well as Kaji's "To use Eva-01 as a trigger while the numbers still don't match... Commander Ikari, Seele won't let this one go" in 2.0, which suggest that angels up to and including 12 (save for Lilith and perhaps #1, Kaworu?) need to be eliminated as a prerequisite to attempting 3I. Eliminating all humanity before instrumentality can be attempted (and not as a result of it) doesn't make much sense.

For a while I considered the "angel is anyone who can trigger an impact" theory, based on Misato's line when she shows Lilith to Shinji near the end of 1.0, and Kaworu "becoming" the 13th by virtue of triggering (Near) 4I. Under this theory, Shinji becomes the 11th the moment he triggers N3I; it's just that he hadn't put a DSS choker on, so NERV couldn't make that assesment in realtime; only retroactively, after the fact. Later, the next FoL-based angel that appears is named #12.

This theory has a problem: either the Dead See Scrolls predicted Shinji becoming the 11th all along, or there is an actual, "originally scheduled" 11th angel that was "robbed" of its turn, and it's still out there

It is also possible that an angel we don't know about caused the demise of NERV-02/Eva-04, and sometime after 2.0 (but before the 12 angel attacked), NERV/Wille became aware of this fact, and named this newly discovered angel as the 11th (the alternative is shifting the numbers of the subsequent angels, i.e. rename the 9th as the "new" 10th, and the 10th as the "new" 11th; but the one that infected Eva-03/Asuka is still refered to as "the 9th" as of 3.0+1.0, so this didn't happen).

I think the 11th was killed during the time-skip, that's simple enough and just fine.

If, one day, Khara decides to make a Evangelion: 2.5, we will certainly see it.

RussianRiz wrote:I think the 11th was killed during the time-skip, that's simple enough and just fine.

If, one day, Khara decides to make a Evangelion: 2.5, we will certainly see it.

Yeah, this is the most likely after all. But I vote for calling it "Evangelion: 2.0+1.0"

RussianRiz wrote:I think the 11th was killed during the time-skip, that's simple enough and just fine.

If, one day, Khara decides to make a Evangelion: 2.5, we will certainly see it.

Anno is apparently keeping the idea open but on the back-burner, as he is still Eva burned out at this point.

I'd REALLY love to see the time between 2.0 and 3.0 fleshed out by Khara officially, there is far too much room for people to construct their own timelines with various interpretations of the hints we are given in 3.0, not to mention outright fanwanking with rediculous theories pulled right from their own 'entry plug' orfices.

But I would imagine it will be at least another 5 years before anything serious is cooked up. I hope not, but from previous history, Khara (or Anno himself) is not too bothered to move quickly on Eva stuff, and why should they? The long delay for 3.0+1.0 translated into record breaking box-office returns in Japan once it finally arrived.

The timeskip is cool, but at this point what I would really like is more light shed on what the f the Adams are, where they came from, and what actually transpired during Second Impact and why. I mean, it really looks like absolutely nothing about 2I in NGE can be "transferred" to the NTE continuity (other than the name!). Call it "Evangelion NTE 0.0", if you will!

TheFriskyIan wrote:Theoretically killed offscreen; but even the 12th Angel was handled poorly and we at least got to see that one.

IIRC someone floated around the theory of the Key being the embryonic nervous system of the 11th, but lack of popularity has the idea lost to time. Not to mention the Key ended up being a poor plot device in and of itself. The lack of a fully fleshed out Q CRC probably doesn’t help.

How exactly was it handled poorly? The exposition in 3.0 made it clear that it was encountered after 2.0 and sealed away - we saw and found out exactly as much of it as was needed for the plot of 3.0.

Semi-Evolved wrote:How exactly was it handled poorly? The exposition in 3.0 made it clear that it was encountered after 2.0 and sealed away - we saw and found out exactly as much of it as was needed for the plot of 3.0.

My opinion of Q has changed considerably over the years, I absolutely love the movie but my views on the 12th Angel and the mechanics behind actual Third Impact have remain unmoved. There's barely any information there, it's a puzzle made with a whole picture in mind but half the pieces are intentionally kept from us.

TheFriskyIan wrote:My opinion of Q has changed considerably over the years, I absolutely love the movie but my views on the 12th Angel and the mechanics behind actual Third Impact have remain unmoved. There's barely any information there, it's a puzzle made with a whole picture in mind but half the pieces are intentionally kept from us.

I guess I'm not seeing why that's a problem - we never see all the pieces of an event in the real world, why is it bad to not see them all in a work of fiction?

From the flashback scene in 3.0+1.0, we can see that:

1. Lilith is already decapitated, but still wearing the mask, her head resembles that of a young man (the jaw, etc.), not Rei Ayanami, and her body resembles that of some fat middle aged dude (in Japanese, 中年太り), minus sex organs.
2. The head is bleeding LCL from the neck stump.
3. The "Attempts at infinity" have already risen up above and are in the process of losing their heads, which rain from above, and are skulls from the start (instead of starting as full heads, and their flesh rotting away during the time skip as you could otherwise infer). I think the lack of the head itself is not what makes them "failures", but rather it is just an intermediate step in turning into infinities: getting rid of your brain (i.e., the Fruit of Knowledge). This is referenced by Gendo in his exposition of "humanity's only two options". And it's consistent with the (non-failure) inifinities seen in 3.0+1.0, which don't have heads either.
4. The cross lies on the ground, "on its side" (supported by one of its arms). This is a bit hard to discern at first since the upper half is in shadow.
5. There is a large, white halo (like that of Eva-01 or the Wunder) above Lilith/Mark.06. The size (and color, see Reichu's analysis on halo color on Twitter) may suggest it belongs to Lilith, not to the Mark.06.
6. Neither Lilith nor the Mark.06 is impaled yet, and in fact neither of the spears can be seen. Perhaps they were delivered after by Kaji?

7. (Edit): The scars in Lilith's chest are completely healed/missing.

I think it's safe to assume that despite the decapitation, Lilith isn't quite "dead" yet. The head still needs to transform into Rei, and rise through the shaft, likely boring a hole through the infinities with her halo (like the 3rd angel in Bethany base).

^^^^^^^^ Good analysis, i concur
I'd assume that the spears stopped the process, simply because spears consistently stop impacts. Maybe Kaji tied one to his helicopter. Or Kaworu did it, and after that Kaji told him to get to safety ("saving" him) and did whatever eviscerated Lillith with good olf-fashioned explosives.

Not sure where Rei comes in - maybe Gendo sent Sweater!Rei to merge with it, or she was piloting the Mk.6, or a dummy plug was.
I think it's quite likely that she jumped down & merged with it, and that this was Gendo's way of taking control of SEELE's impact. There is no Shinji around to motivate her to defect.
That said she got to get the door sign & her cardboard box from her old house, so the memories were probably downloaded. It's not unlikely that she would go along with Gendo's plan just to return to Lillith/ end her miserable existence, as in the og show.


As for the 11th angel my HC is that Mari & Asuka took it down by double-piloting unit two just like in the drafts, or something like that.
In any case there's 4 active pilots who could have defeated it.

I do hope they eventually publish the unused scripts/drafts for the "timeskip movie"

Still, it's chilling to consider that the crashed helicopter probably still contained either Kaji's rotting corpse, or his empty, LcL-soaked uniform by the time we saw it in Q.
Shinji could've seen it if he'd opened the heli.

Kendrix wrote:^^^^^^^^ Good analysis, i concur
I'd assume that the spears stopped the process, simply because spears consistently stop impacts. Maybe Kaji tied one to his helicopter. Or Kaworu did it, and after that Kaji told him to get to safety ("saving" him) and did whatever eviscerated Lillith with good olf-fashioned explosives.

Bonus points for tying the "Kaji saving Kaworu" in there... Yeah, I forgot the evisceration (or the "deflaking" of the skin). I wonder what caused those.

Kendrix wrote:Not sure where Rei comes in - maybe Gendo sent Sweater!Rei to merge with it, or she was piloting the Mk.6, or a dummy plug was.
I think it's quite likely that she jumped down & merged with it, and that this was Gendo's way of taking control of SEELE's impact. There is no Shinji around to motivate her to defect.
That said she got to get the door sign & her cardboard box from her old house, so the memories were probably downloaded. It's not unlikely that she would go along with Gendo's plan just to return to Lillith/ end her miserable existence, as in the og show.

I don't know either, but for some reason the Failures are shaped after Eva-01, which so happens to hold Rei's soul at this point... so there's that.

Kendrix wrote:As for the 11th angel my HC is that Mari & Asuka took it down by double-piloting unit two just like in the drafts, or something like that.
In any case there's 4 active pilots who could have defeated it.

Yeah. I'm curious about how much of the damage we see in Q was caused by N3I, and how much by A3I. The Wille crew in SHIN make it explicit that it was N3I that killed the most people (or at least, the most people near Tokyo-03!). But that body count comparison doesn't say anything about e.g. the "land teeth" and the moon.

Kendrix wrote:I do hope they eventually publish the unused scripts/drafts for the "timeskip movie"

Fingers crossed!

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EDIT (wanted to make a separate post, since it's been a while, but I'm the last one to have posted on this thread, and two posts in a row is against forum rules):

OK, I've been thinking about that theory that Shinji is the 11th angel. Not new, I know, but I wanted to put my ideas about it all in one place, so bear with me:

First, we know the DSS choker detects angelic manifestation in its bearer. We see this happen twice on screen: first, when Kaworu becomes the 13th in 3.0, and second, when Asuka reactivates the 'dormant' 9th angel inside her eye, by removing the hex sealing pillar that was keeping it in check. This is consistent with Kaworu's indication that the lilim developed the choker precisely with him (the first angel) in mind. The choker is a device designed to stop humanoid angels.

We also know (from Ritsuko in 3.0) that the choker's purpose is to prevent the awakening of an Eva (and the subsequent triggering of an impact) by killing its pilot, in case the latter loses control of their emotions.

Furthermore, during his exposition to Shinji outside Nerv HQ in 3.0, Kaoru mentions that by awakening Eva-01 and opening the Doors of Gun, Shinji became the trigger of 3rd Impact. And later on the same movie, when Fourth Impact is about to begin, Kaworu tells Shinji not to blame himself, because it is he (Kaworu) who is responsible, since by virtue of having become the 13th angel, he is the trigger.

This means it is very possible that in a similar vein, Shinji became the 11th when he awakened Eva-01; it's just that we aren't told so because he simply wasn't wearing a choker or any other sensor that could detect the phenomenon at the time, thus it was determined later, retroactively.

When Kaworu awakens at the end of 1.0, he seems to know exactly "what comes next", in perfect Groundhog Day fashion (due to him having already lived several iterations of the loo-oops! I meant "Toroidal Narrative"):
He talks to Seele before the monoliths appear. He tells them that 'the boy over there has awakened' (this can also be translated as "their boy has awakened"), which Seele seem to acknowledge. Shinji is clearly more than simply "an ordinary lilim child who just so happens to be the son of Gendo and Yui".

Additionally, Kaworu introduces himself to Shinji as "a boy who has had his fate preordained, just like you". This can be read as "we're both angels, you know?". But then again, Shinji is predestined to meet Kaworu by virtue of that whole "Book of Life" thing (a mystery on its own).

As you can see, Shinji being the 11th solves the mystery (albeit in a quite boring way: we don't get an additional "cool monster", onscreen or otherwise!). But it also raises several questions:


1. If Kaworu began as the First angel, why didn't the choker detect him and activated the moment he put it on?
Answer: I think this works pretty much like NGE; Kaworu's angelic nature is exposed only once he uses his powers, thus emanating the 'angel signal' (pattern blue); until then, it is dormant and concelaed. In NGE this happens when he activates his AT Field and levitates into the air, leading Eva-02. In NTE, I think it goes more or less like this: He realizes there's something wrong with the spears, but (likely by Gendo's design) he is cut off from the Eva-13 controls and is unable to do anyhting. In desperation, he unleashes his powers to try to wrestle back the Eva-13's controls, and this gives him away to the choker. Rewatch the whole scene armed with this new hypothesis, and let me know what you think!

2. Why is there no instance whatsoever of any character refering to Shinji as "the 11th angel" in either 3.0 or 3.0+1.0?
This is one the strongest cases against this theory, I think.

3. Why did Kaworu get reassigned a new angel number (13) when his choker activated, but Asuka's eye 'reused' the existing 9th?
Answer: Mystery; probably plot hole? I think 3.0+1.0 needed to unmistakenly show that Asuka was reviving the same angel that overtook her in 2.0, and giving it a new number would have confused the message.
EDIT: I think each angel has a distinctive "signature" signal (e.g. "Blue 06", "Blue 04", as seen on screen) that Magi keeps track off. That's why it recognized the reappearance of the 9th in SHIN, but on the other hand Kaworu was turned into a brand new angel in Q. Someone said it was the "kotodama" power of the Adams to change things into other things - as seen when the NERV ships and the Wunder turn the Black and the spine respectively into spears). Why he wasn't detected until then as the 1st... I guess it's because he wasn't deploying his AT Field (which is what bears the "pattern blue" signal in each case, Angel or Eva).

4. If the angels were already around at the time of the Dead See Scrolls (also DSS, lol), how does Shinji, born naturally from Gendo and Yui thoudands of years later, fit into that?
Possibility 1: Perhaps Shinji's soul existed as an angel all along together with the others, but his body was lost along the way for some reason. Then Gendo and Yui devised a way to salvage that soul into the child they conceived, for the sole purpose of restoring the 12 angels and being able to realize the Dead See Scrolls scenario. EDIT: But setting Gendo aside, would Yui be OK with slaying her own child for the sake of instrumentality?
Possibility 2: Or perhaps there is a "proper 11th angel" (i.e., not Shinji), that infects the Eva-01 entry plug off-screen, and that is what helps Shinji reactivate/awaken it. This one's a stretch since it has zero establishing shots, but it solves all other contradictions. But it would be the first occurrence of more than one angel appearing at once (other than Kaworu, who seems to be special, and the scrolls, which depict them all together, perhaps only symbolically).

5. If NERV/Seele's plan is to annihilate all the angels, why does Shinji get a pass? It's obvious that despite being a questionable father, Gendo's plans never involves killing Shinji; and neither does Seele order him to do so, deespite being hell bent on exterminating all the angels (but then again, neither do they ever attempt to exterminate Kaworu, who is the First).
This is one too is a strong cases against this theory. EDIT: Or maybe it doesn't matter since, once his sould is absorbed into Eva-01 and his physical body is dissolved into LCL as a result of N3I, he is as good as exterminated.

Maybe Yui is the Eleventh Angel. In the flashback of the contact experiment she’s wearing a plugsuit with wings, Gendo says that “she” had been in the Golgotha Object (whatever that means), Shinji says his mother had been inside him, and in the end, she is killed through deicide. Maybe Shinji became the Eleventh Angel when his eyes turned red to save Rei, and that’s the moment when Yui entered inside Shinji. Maybe.

I think it would have been a cool idea if instead of using the Mark.04b inside the tessaract as a plot device, they have used the 11th angel. The prologue of the movie set some days or months after ATI, with WILLE beginning to operate properly and sending Eva Units 02 & 08 to retrieve Eva Unit 01 and then to their surpise, the 11th angel makes act of presence.

If we remember when the first teasers of Eva 3.0 began appearing, many of us thought the Mark.04b and its wings-like tentacles were the 11th angel.

Now, continuing with this idea, all the operation becomes a chaos because of this unexpected situation. As the movie handled it, Mari loses altitude and cannot help Asuka. The Angel using its wings to reflect its own AT-Field as a sort of light reflector and attacks Asuka with it (as seen in the finished film) All seems lost until Asuka asks for Shinji to do something (againg, as done in the film).

I think it would have been better handled that way, with Eva 01 taking care of it as it happened in the movie.

Then we fast-forward to some weeks later. This time Shinji wakes up and the film continues as it was presented to us. But no 14 years later BS, just months between 2.22 & 3.333.