Anno's mad poem: a tale of failed research

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Anno's mad poem: a tale of failed research

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Postby gwern » Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:14 pm

Thought I'd record one of the many dead-ends I run into. Today I looked into an edit on WP on the main NGE article, replacing a dead Japanese reference with an anime review website; as it happens, the anime review website was almost certainly plagiarizing the WP article, making it a circular reference! Why did the review claim NGE has made >150billion yen? Because the Wikipedia article had said so. And what's the reference for that claim? The review website...

Things like this make me one cynical Wikipedian. In any event, I noticed an entry had been added to the bibliography to a random academic article:

Malone, Paul M. (2007) "My Own Private Apocalypse: Shinji Ikari as Schreberian Paranoid Superhero in Hideaki Anno's Neon Genesis Evangelion", pages 111-126 in Wendy Haslem, Angela Ndalianis, C. J. Mackie (eds.) Super/Heroes: from Hercules to Superman New Academia Publishing 9780977790845


As luck would have it (since it's in no library within 50 miles or on any of the usual ebook sources I checked), practically the entire book, including the entire article, was readable in Google Books: http://books.google.com/books?id=deiYbEbJY3UC

Malone uses the usual sources you would expect from an academic, hitting Sadamoto & Anno a little better than most, although his reliance on Napier is a bit dangerous (she doesn't understand Eva very well) and Kotani is nuts (her views are pretty weird even in summary).

What is interesting is that he bases the article on a German madman, Daniel Paul Schreber (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Daniel_Paul_Schreber), who... wrote a book on his madness and worldview. A book that was a favorite of Carl Jung, who recommended it to Sigmund Freud who discussed it extensively; Jungians have discussed it ever since, apparently. The psychiatrist put in charge of Schreber published a book entitled Gehirn und Seele. Freud & Jung have been available in Japanese for forever, of course, and Schreber was translated into Japanese in 1991. Hm.

Malone seems to seriously overreach when he says Anno actually underwent therapy - his two references neither say that* - but does provide one solid-sounding reference for his claim that most Japanese therapists would be Jungian. Malone carefully says that "Evangelion is clearly not directly based on Schreber's memoirs", but... why not?

* I am aware that the Nobi interview I link later on does include a line where Anno says he went to see 'a doctor', but that was after NGE TV finished and a source unlisted by Malone.

At this point, I recall one source not available to Malone writing in 2005, Anno's interview with Nobi http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic.php?p=421849#421849

At that time I consulted a bit with my friends. When I asked if there was something composed by a madman, I was loaned a "Bessatsu Takarajima" [1] volume on mental illness. It was an "easy and reasonable" book [イージーでリーズナブルな本] (laughs), but inside it there was a poem written by a madman. That was extremely good. When I read the poem I had a strong impression, as though this was the first time that I had come close. I had a feeling like a light glinting upon the tip of a sharp knife. It was certainly not the feeling of an ordinary man. That was good. If I think about it now, this sort of 'capacity' was [already] within me (laughs). [??2] It's mad to believe that the writings of a madman are of the highest quality. I read that [poem] and was filled with images; I was able to write [Rei's monologue] in one sitting.


Well! Maybe Anno had not read Schreber directly, but he clearly read a poem by *some* madman, and why couldn't this pop psychology book be quoting Schreber? Malone mentions, in the context of Eva's use of classical music, that Schreber often recited poems or sang songs to cope, which makes it plausible he might've *written* some poems too, and put them in his memoirs.

As it happens, said memoirs are also available, fully searchable, in Google Books: http://books.google.com/books?id=BPdL_BOnKOIC 'poetry' turns up nothing useful, and 'poem' turns up only one useful hit on page 119, a poem brought to Schreber by his wife. That is, not written by him, the madman. Not good, but not damning either; perhaps the detailed provenance was lost in translation or Anno didn't notice or forgot or was being vague as he spoke extemporaneously. The poem goes:
Ere true peace can reach you -
God's still and silent peace -
The peace life never giveth
Nor worldly joys beneath,
It needs God's arm must strike
A blow and wound you deep,
So that you cry: Have mercy,
God, have mercy on my days,
It needs a cry must ring,
Ring from your soul
And darkness be within you,
As 'fore the world's first day.
It needs that crushing pain
Must wholly vanquish you,
And not a lonely tear be left
In your poor wretched soul.
And when you're done with weeping
And weary art, so weary,
Then comes to you a faithful guest
God's still and silent peace.


You can't tell me that some of that doesn't sound Eva-like.

Short of finding more info on that 'Bessatsu Takarajima', though, I had only one last thing to try. As a pop psych book, I would *strongly* expect some Japanese otaku to have found it and copied out the relevant poem online, as there can only be a few such books from the right time period and even fewer with poems. Such an otaku would be sure to list Schreber's name in connection with it, either following Anno's hypothetical mistake or to correct it.

en Wikipedia doesn't have a ja interwiki for Schreber's biography, and searching ja Wikipedia directly didn't turn up any kanji, so I simply searched for the Hideaki Anno kanji with "Daniel Schreber" and variants.

I found absolutely nothing. The combinations turned up a few pages, at best, discussing the American movie _Dark City_ (which apparently has a character named after Schreber). Searching for Schreber and Anno turned up nothing, Schreber and Eva turned up nothing, Schreber and NGE turned up nothing. Not the slightest speculation.

Oh dear. That rather puts the kibosh on my idea. It's far from the first such promising lead to pan out as nothing, but I still have hopes, so I have recorded the whole process here.

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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:23 am

Well, indeed it was an interesting reading. Actually there's a result for 庵野 秀明 シュレーバー but I don't know how much it's related, it doesn't make sense at all with Google Translate.
So let’s make a wish.
“Please let me redo again.”
No matter how many times

From the book “All About Nagisa Kaworu: A Child of Evangelion”.

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Postby JoeD80 » Fri Aug 05, 2011 6:04 pm

Anno is only on that page because of a link to a previous post and as a keyword for other posts.

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Postby 1731298478 » Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:25 pm

Well, it was a good effort ^^

I looked for this poem but was never able to find it. In this 2ch thread someone suggested that the volume in question was this one, but according to the Takarajima web page it was published in October 1996 (November 1996 on the linked page), which is way too late. I think the most likely culprit is this one, which according to the Takarajima page was published in August 1989 (though the linked page says July 1986). There's a list of the sections of the book here. The book seems to try to understand mental illness in an "anti-psychiatric" way. The book's second section deals with something like "mental illness from the inside" and the fourth section with something like the expression of mental illness, so either of those could easily contain a poem like the one Anno described. However, that was only the best match I could find; there's no certainty that that's the book, and I couldn't confirm anything about the poem.

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Postby Korgan » Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:35 am

Interesting. Nice job!
"Why should things be easy to understand?"
-Thomas Pynchon, whose works I've never actually read

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Postby gwern » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:28 am

Yes, thanks for the research. One day...

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Re: Anno's mad poem: a tale of failed research

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Postby Iritscen » Fri Jan 31, 2025 5:38 pm

Maybe today is that day. I know this is a necropost, but I wanted to share that, after some research into the book which 1731298478 thought was "the most likely culprit", I went ahead and bought a copy of it: Bessatsu Takarajima 53, "A book to learn about mental illness", first published in 1986.

Now, I imported it from Japan to the U.S., but I do not in fact speak or read Japanese so I will need the help of someone here to translate what I found :) I have tried machine translation through Google Translate, but I don't have a lot of confidence in the results. What I can tell you is that there are 12 pages of writings in here from patients who were in the Murakami Hospital. Based on my preview via machine translation, there are a few poems which could have inspired Anno in writing "Rei's poem"; it's possible that it wasn't any single one.

Well, here's the cover and one page of the poems section, translated and untranslated: https://imgur.com/a/jY60iB0 . Once I find a capable translator to work with me, I can go ahead and slice out the relevant pages so I can scan them properly without the distortion of an opened book.

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Re: Anno's mad poem: a tale of failed research

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Postby viperzero » Sat Feb 01, 2025 11:12 pm

View Original PostIritscen wrote:Maybe today is that day. I know this is a necropost, but I wanted to share that, after some research into the book which 1731298478 thought was "the most likely culprit", I went ahead and bought a copy of it: Bessatsu Takarajima 53, "A book to learn about mental illness", first published in 1986.

Now, I imported it from Japan to the U.S., but I do not in fact speak or read Japanese so I will need the help of someone here to translate what I found :) I have tried machine translation through Google Translate, but I don't have a lot of confidence in the results. What I can tell you is that there are 12 pages of writings in here from patients who were in the Murakami Hospital. Based on my preview via machine translation, there are a few poems which could have inspired Anno in writing "Rei's poem"; it's possible that it wasn't any single one.

Well, here's the cover and one page of the poems section, translated and untranslated: https://imgur.com/a/jY60iB0 . Once I find a capable translator to work with me, I can go ahead and slice out the relevant pages so I can scan them properly without the distortion of an opened book.



What else is in the book. Supposedly he learned psychoanalysis from it



Toshiya Ueno

Anno: "Especially Shinji, Misato, and Asuka.

I feel something close to myself. And as Shadow, Kaworu-kun. Rei is created from the most core and deep part of me. I try to stay as hands- off as possible, and just let what oozes out take shape."

English

Veno: "I really like Rei, Ueno. "For really want Fou from Z

Gundam to exist. I really want to meet you. But Rei isn't like that.

This is not a secondary complex (two-dimensional complex),

but I think that Rei is a complete being who is not in front of

ne. the same artificially created thing

Even if

Anno: "Well, I'm crazy, though

(lol). That's what Rei wanted to o. It was difficult, though. Only

people like that can draw it. I Is it?

have no choice but to go crazy."

Ueno "Psychoanalysis and porsonality sominar Small It is said that it is something like this.

But that kind of psychology in general

in this been strong for a long time?

Has your interest

Anno: "It was like it didn't exist."

Ueno: "Did you feel like you were heading towards that direction while working on "Eva"?

Anno: "That's right. I naturally went that way.

Before, I had never read any books on psychoanalysis. I only touched on it a little since it was a general education course at university. Out of all

of them, it was the most interesting."

Ueno: "Then, I guess you could call it a keyword, or something that caught my interest." Anno: "Yeah. I guess I wasn't that interested in humans..that is.

When I started telling my story, I found myself wanting words to convey

it. Therefore, I thought that the easiest term to use was a term that was commonly used in psychology. So I started digging through books. Until then, I had no interest in psychology.

I didn't think so."

conversation between myself

Anno: "Episode 16 was the first time I plunged straight into my inner world." I've also tried expressing words using line drawings for some time.


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Re: Anno's mad poem: a tale of failed research

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Postby Iritscen » Mon Feb 03, 2025 3:26 pm

To be honest, I didn't really understand that quote. I think it got a bit garbled when you copy-pasted it :wink:

So I thought I would unveil a translation for the first poem which caught my eye. I don't think it's necessarily "Anno's mad poem". The ones that come after this might be better candidates for that poem, but in lieu of a human translator I wanted to work out a machine-translation path that would yield decent translations.

This first poem, which you could see in my preview photo, has mostly been translated by DeepSeek V3 but with pieces of translations by ChatGPT 4o mini and qwen 2.5 where I preferred their renditions of some lines. I'm including the original Japanese for anyone who wants to do their own translation.

Sea
Millions of fragments are spent,
As time turns and fades away.
Gazing at the cresting waves along the boat’s edge,
Within the single word "sea",
Countless bubbles layer upon each other,
Guiding people to soar into the depths.

The secret burials at the water's bottom, in the murky sediment,
One by one, unravel the roots of memory,
And time alone, like a kaleidoscope,
Folds away the source of life.

The heat of secret encounters, the unrelenting anger,
Are purified as if the weight of ether peels away thin skin.
Each night, the turbulence that scorched the sky
Silently withers the limbs.

Is it the power to split the sea with sleeves,
Or the pleasure of a people lost to the unknown?
All things in existence, driven toward the boundless void,
Come to rest in the storehouse called “sea”,
And human fate, ever so slowly,
Loosens the rope of its curse.

On that day when the end is deeply etched in the mind,
The sea still moans in illness,
Sending forth its angry waves.


幾百万という断片を費して
時は回って滅んで行く
滔々と舟縁に波頭を見つめると
海という一つの言葉の裡に
ありとあらゆる泡沫が層を成して
人を深底へと飛翔させて行く
(furigana for line below: みなそこ at start and よどみ at end)
水底の密葬が淀んだ澱に
次々とその記憶の根元を振りほどき
時間だけが万華鏡の如く
生命の源を折り畳んで行く
忍び逢う熱も明けやらぬ憤怒も
エーテルの重みが薄皮を剥ぐ如く浄化し
夜毎に空を焼いた激動が
人知れず四肢を萎えさせて行く
袖技とは海を裂いた力か
それとも行方知れずの民の快楽か
茫漠へ駆り立てる森羅万象が
「海」という名の蔵に眠りつくと
人の因果はゆるゆると
呪縛の縄を解いて行く
終末を脳裏に深々と定着させたその日
海はやはり病み上りの音をたてて
怒濤を送っていった

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Re: Anno's mad poem: a tale of failed research

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Postby viperzero » Tue Feb 04, 2025 7:50 am

庵野「特にシンジ、ミサト、アスカ
には、自分に近いものを感しますね。 で、シャドーとして、カヲル君。レ イは僕の一番コアな、深層の部分で つくってます。できるだけ自分は無 干渉にして、にしみ出るところだけ
で形にしていますね」 上野「僕はレイってすごい好きなん です。たとえば「Zガンダム」のフォ
ウって、本当にいてほしいんですよ。 本当に会いたい。でも、レイってそ うじゃないんですよね。これは二次 コン(二次元コンブレックス)では なく、レイっていうのは、自分の前 にはいない、完結している存在だと 思う。同し人工的につくられたもの
であっても」 庵野「まあ、気が狂ってますけどね (笑)。レイはそうしたかったんです よ。難しかったんですけどね。それ が描けるのはそういう人だけですか ら。これは僕が気狂うしかない」 上野「精神分析とか人格セミナーが どうのこうのとかって言われてます
けど、ああいうサイコロジー一般に
を物分で 対する興味というのは、昔から強か
ったんですか?」 庵野「まるでなかったです」 上野「「エヴァ」をやってて、そうい うのに向かっていったっていう感じ
ですか?」
庵野「そうです。自然にそっちに。 以前は精神分析の本て、全然読まな かったんです。大学の一般教養ので 少し触れた程度ですね。その中では 一番面白かったです」 上野「しゃ、何となくキーワードと いうか、興味みたいなものが心の中
に引っかかっていたんですね」 庵野「ええ。僕、人間にあまり興味 かなかったんでしょうね。それが、 自分の話をはじめたときに、途中で
伝える言葉が欲しくなったんですよ。 それで、いちばん使いやすいと考え たのが、世間一般で使われている心 理学用語ということばだった。そし
て、本をあさりはしめたんでうす。 それまで、心理学に興味をもつなん て思わなかったッス」
自分と自分との会話 庵野「16話が最初なんですよ。スト レートに自己の内面世界に突入して しまったのは。以前から線画による
ことはの表現というのもやってみた


Raw text
https://x.com/htGOIW/status/1631681993938460672

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Re: Anno's mad poem: a tale of failed research

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Postby Iritscen » Tue Feb 04, 2025 4:38 pm

Interesting. Well this book is almost 300 pages, so asking me "what else is in the book" is a bit tricky :) I'll tell you what, you seem like you can read Japanese, so how about I post the table of contents (five pages)? https://imgur.com/a/8D3lW1e . I don't plan to post more photos/scans of the book, only the poems as I get them translated one by one (that is, the poems which I think could be "Anno's mad poem").

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Re: Anno's mad poem: a tale of failed research

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Postby viperzero » Tue Feb 04, 2025 8:27 pm

View Original PostIritscen wrote:Interesting. Well this book is almost 300 pages, so asking me "what else is in the book" is a bit tricky :) I'll tell you what, you seem like you can read Japanese, so how about I post the table of contents (five pages)? https://imgur.com/a/8D3lW1e . I don't plan to post more photos/scans of the book, only the poems as I get them translated one by one (that is, the poems which I think could be "Anno's mad poem").


Thank you! That’s much longer then I thought

I wonder if there is anything on psychoanalysis or object relations.

One thing really interesting about that index

This is what I read: A commentary by someone diagnosed with "borderline personality disorder"...192

Saburo Izutsu.


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