"Show, don't tell": why Thrice is better than EoE

This is the place to start: Feel free to introduce yourself, have general conversations and casual discussions about all things Evangelion, including chit-chatty topics like "Sachiel is adorable" or "Which Eva kicks the most ass?"

Moderator: Board Staff

Angel
Banned
Age: 39
Posts: 65
Joined: Sep 10, 2015

"Show, don't tell": why Thrice is better than EoE

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Angel » Thu Nov 10, 2022 4:03 am

There's a saying in film: "Show, don't tell"

EoE ends with a lot of monologuing about how there's always hope and anywhere can be heaven if you have the will to live or whatever. But for many viewers, including myself, these platitudes ring hollow because they are accompanied by images of a planet where this is impossible; a planet that has been scoured of all life, including bacteria. Shinji and Asuka have no greater chance of surviving on a post-3I Earth than they do on the surface of Mars. EoE comes across like a depressed person telling himself things that he doesn't really believe in a failed attempt to cheer himself up (which is probably exactly what Anno was doing).

By contrast, what does Thrice show us? Within the first twenty minutes, we see a pregnant woman, a pregnant cat, and Toji and Hikari's baby daughter. Within the first thirty, we see crops being planted and harvested. Within forty, tadpoles; not adult frogs, but tadpoles. That distinction is critical. The emphasis is not on the living things that survived 3I, but on those that came afterward. We are shown life on Earth actually recovering from an apocalypse. Even while Shinji curls up in a fetal position in a corner by himself and refuses to eat, everyone else moves forward with their lives. If EoE was Trump talking about the size of his hands, Thrice is Lyndon B. Johnson whipping it out and laying it on the White House desk to prove it. Thrice is a movie that bought what EoE was selling, and puts its money where EoE's mouth was. And because Thrice believes it, the audience believes it too.
I'm just here for the fan art.

Blockio#938367 wrote:it will be in your best interest to shut up.

Mr. Tines
Administrator
Administrator
User avatar
Age: 66
Posts: 21373
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
Location: This sceptered isle.
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: "Show, don't tell": why Thrice is better than EoE

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Mr. Tines » Thu Nov 10, 2022 7:03 am

View Original PostAngel wrote:a planet that has been scoured of all life

I'm going to repost my favourite picture here
Image
where we see nicely tree-covered hills in the aftermath of Shinji saying "Shut it down!" We also see a much more mechanical explanation for the landscape in the epilogue, in the form of that giant tsunami in the background overtopping all the terrain.
Reminder: Play nicely <<>> My vanity publishing:- NGE|blog|Photos|retro-blog|Fanfics &c.|MAL|𝕏|🐸|🦣
Avatar: art deco Asuka

dzzthink
Shamshel
Shamshel
User avatar
Posts: 284
Joined: Aug 23, 2020
Gender: Male

Re: "Show, don't tell": why Thrice is better than EoE

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby dzzthink » Thu Nov 10, 2022 7:38 am

Thrice is definitely a lot more obscure than in EoE, so rather than pointing out to the audience exactly how everything is resolved in the ending, we do just get a lot of 'make do with what you will' scenes on how Shinji grows up and becomes a better person. There is a lot of debate on how Shinji breaks out of his funk in the final movie after the turmoil he experienced in the previous movies and based on the 'Show don't tell' principle, you get the understanding of how Shinji overcomes his issues based on the atmosphere of the opening moments and the interaction with his friends. It could be considered a bit rushed but I do appreciate the abstract elements of thrice.
"Everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial. Everything is permissible but not everything is constructive." - 1 Corinthians 10:23

Axx°N N.
Sahaquiel
Sahaquiel
User avatar
Posts: 642
Joined: Dec 31, 2020
Location: Up a tree
Gender: Male

Re: "Show, don't tell": why Thrice is better than EoE

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Axx°N N. » Sun Nov 13, 2022 10:53 pm

Under this criteria, though, Thrice does a lot of monologues without demonstration. Shinji presents fixes to everyone, but we don't see how any of them live, interact or function now that their mental arrest is exonerated. "Your happiness isn't my happiness," from Kaworu for instance. Ok, so what is? Farming? We don't see how farming meaningfully marries to his character outside a vague gesture. Are we to take Rei's innocent embrace of rural charm to be universal for all characters? What we were shown is a folksy utopia where the only threat is distilled into Gendo. With him out of the picture and humanity back on track, how do we apply the lessons there to anything broader? Unless the ultimate message is, "everyone go get pregnant and farm," which isn't going to remain a solution to everything forever, I don't see how Thrice presents anything more real or nuanced than EoE, visual accompaniment or otherwise. The demeanor and attitude of the villagers, the fixes found by or for characters in instrumentality, are all well and good, but they're just demeanor, attitude, and statement. We still don't see what the characters actually do afterwards.
Après moi le déluge!

BernardoCairo
Full/Super Moderator
Full/Super Moderator
User avatar
Age: 21
Posts: 1204
Joined: Dec 27, 2020
Location: Brazil
Gender: Male

Re: "Show, don't tell": why Thrice is better than EoE

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby BernardoCairo » Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:47 pm

I'm not sure if I agree with the OP either, to be honest.
EOE definitely wasn't selling the same thing as Shin is.
The End of Evangelion is a very depressing film by nature and that dictates how it presents itself to audiences.
When some of us say it's a hopeful ending, we're not necessarily trying to argue that it's a happy one. It's not.
Unlike Shin or (to some extent) EoTV, which are idealized endings to the story of Evangelion, EOE is a more grounded conclusion.
There's no exposition. Shinji naturally comes to similar conclusions as his NTE counterpart. However, that doesn't mean the world around him will now magically change just because he had an epifany. He still has a lot of work to do on himself and will have to come to terms with reality.
EOE is about accepting the bad parts of life as something that exists while trying to look for the good in it. Shin is about changing said reality in order to be happy and bring happiness to those around you. It's fundamentally different.
Just sit here and waste your precious time. When you want to do something, don't do it right away. Don't do it when you can. Read my posts instead. It's the only way to live a life without regrets.

nerv bae
Israfel
Israfel
User avatar
Posts: 479
Joined: Sep 06, 2021
Location: USA
Gender: Male

Re: "Show, don't tell": why Thrice is better than EoE

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby nerv bae » Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:40 pm

View Original PostAxx°N N. wrote:Unless the ultimate message is, "everyone go get pregnant and farm," which isn't going to remain a solution to everything forever,

Not with that attitude :misato_bleh:

Angel
Banned
Age: 39
Posts: 65
Joined: Sep 10, 2015

Re: "Show, don't tell": why Thrice is better than EoE

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Angel » Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:27 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:where we see nicely tree-covered hills in the aftermath of Shinji saying "Shut it down!" We also see a much more mechanical explanation for the landscape in the epilogue, in the form of that giant tsunami in the background overtopping all the terrain.


Hmmm. The Director's Cut of Episode 21 makes it clear that when Doors of Guf and Anti-AT fields get involved, all nearby life is wiped out, even bacteria.

Maybe someone at Gainax didn't get the memo.
I'm just here for the fan art.

Blockio#938367 wrote:it will be in your best interest to shut up.

AwesomeGuy21
Embryo
User avatar
Posts: 1
Joined: Jan 08, 2023
Gender: Male

Re: "Show, don't tell": why Thrice is better than EoE

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby AwesomeGuy21 » Sun Jan 08, 2023 10:20 am

View Original PostAngel wrote:these platitudes ring hollow because they are accompanied by images of a planet where this is impossible;


You yourself admit that
View Original PostAngel wrote:anywhere can be heaven if you have the will to live or whatever

and if anywhere can be heaven if you have the will to live, then it can be heaven, ergo it's not impossible, wherefore you're wrong! Hope this helps ^_^

AsukaisLiterallyMe
Embryo
User avatar
Posts: 47
Joined: Mar 18, 2023
Gender: Male

Re: "Show, don't tell": why Thrice is better than EoE

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby AsukaisLiterallyMe » Sat Mar 18, 2023 8:43 pm

It's been years since I've been on forums, but answering a months old topic where the user is apparently banned seems silly.

However.

Thrice is an almost three hour monologue about how all the plot works and the universe being explained. That's, literally, telling over showing (and my biggest issue with the rebuilds).

Eva's best bits were the psychological bits, the deconstruction of the genre, obscurity, and the surrealism.

And then Thrice has a scene where
SPOILER: Show
Giga Yui stabs herself as Giga Gendo hugs her.


Really did not care about all the background plot fluff. I did not want that explained because explanations will never be as good as what an audience can imagine.

FreakyFilmFan4ever
(In)Sufficient Director
(In)Sufficient Director
User avatar
Age: 36
Posts: 9897
Joined: Jun 09, 2009
Location: Playing amongst the stars
Gender: Male

Re: "Show, don't tell": why Thrice is better than EoE

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Apr 03, 2023 4:22 pm

Well, there’s also a fundamental difference between Shin Eva and EoE. Shin Eva is an actual movie, whereas EoE, by all standards of measure, is a large, HBO-esque television production that was also theatrically released.

Shin Eva, for example, has a pretty solid 3-act structure. The pacing of Shin Eva feels more like the final installment of a movie series as well, more akin to The Return of the King than anything else. It centers its story more around Shinji’s experience throughout the film just like any other movie would do for their lead protagonist. Sure, there are supporting cast members that also have their stories tied up in a nice bow at the end, but the focus is on the movie’s main protagonist.

EoE, on the other hand, is split up in two distinct parts, each part having its own 5-act story structure, which is generally how TV show episodes are structured. (10-acts total for all of EoE!) And that’s mainly because EoE literally is the last two episodes of NGE remade and re-conceived as a big-budget production, and not an actual movie. It has to tie up the stories for an entire ensemble cast, some of which were acting as one of many protagonists features throughout the show overall. TV writing is very dialogue heavy in general in order to accommodate smaller budgets and shorter production schedules, which accounts for much of the expositional dialogue in EoE. But even with its bigger budget and longer run time per episode, EoE still has to tie up the stories of Shinji, Rei, Asuka, and Misato, all of which were considered in some fashion a lead character during any given earlier episode of the show. And the best way to wrap up all of those stories and the rest of the plot in about 82 minutes would be to fall back in the exposition-heavy dialogue that was common to the rest of the show.


Return to “Evangelion General and Chit-Chat”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests