I might be going off topic here but it's worth noting that in most of Mari's scenes in person with other characters she's trying to cheer them up or see the bright side or otherwise pick them up just as in this manga. Be it Shinji, Asuka or, as in those flashbacks in 3.0+1.0, she even clowns on Gendo.

And like ElMariachi said, we need more of her bouncing off other characters.

ChrisTamv wrote:I agree. 3.0+1.0 has many more of these quieter character moments like 2.0 did but 3.0 has a criminal lack of those for any character other than Shinji... Probably my main problem with that film tbh.

That's the trade-off for the story to be this near psychological horror theme that makes it so unique.

Jayfive wrote:I might be going off topic here but it's worth noting that in most of Mari's scenes in person with other characters she's trying to cheer them up or see the bright side or otherwise pick them up just as in this manga. Be it Shinji, Asuka or, as in those flashbacks in 3.0+1.0, she even clowns on Gendo.

And like ElMariachi said, we need more of her bouncing off other characters.

Especially since this is the character's main characteristic and why they did the whole "she breaks Evangelion because she wasn't touched by Anno until the last movie" thing: that unlike the other characters who closes themselves in front of their issues, hedgehog's dilemma and all that, she goes "fuck this, you need a hug, here it is". That after so much talk on how much the characters would be better if they just reached to each other and talked about their issue, to have a character who arrives and does just that, just because she doesn't like to see people suffering.
And it works: sure Asuka complains, but later she's seen playing her game with Mari glued to her without complaining, which implies that actually she does enjoy the physical contact.

Hilariously, Mari gets more of this characterization in the Evangelion: Battlefields mobile game of all places, where there's an alternate scenario where Mark.09 never attacked the Wunder and so Shinji never left it, and we see several instances of Mari helping out people:

• Sakura is seen bringing books to Shinji's cell so he could had something to pass time, and it's heavily implied that Mari was the one who gave her those books so Shinji would had something to discuss with Sakura (since in this scenario Misato and Co didn't told him about the state of the world or that Rei is trapped inside Unit 01 because "that's unecessary information" - actually because Thrice wasn't released yet)
• Mari also convinces Misato to let Shinji participate in the piloting VR training (which is the game's combat phases) with her, Asuka and the OC pilot Kotone, because having someone with a different fighting style participating with them will be good for their training, and also because it'll let Shinji be useful instead of running in circles in his cell going crazy because no one tells him what happened. (and it's also implied that she also does this to keep him prepared for when he'll get to pilot for real again)
• There's also a scene where she meets Nagara (the Wunder's helmsman) who tells her about her doubts on her capabilities now that the Wunder can fly, and thus Mari creates training simulations between the Wunder and the Evas so the Wunder will be better at supporting the Evas in battle and also to increase Nagara's trust in herself. The scene ends with Nagara and Mari sharing a meal and chatting, having become friends. (again, this is before Thrice was released and revealed that the pilots don't need to eat)

ElMariachi wrote:Especially since this is the character's main characteristic and why they did the whole "she breaks Evangelion because she wasn't touched by Anno until the last movie" thing: that unlike the other characters who closes themselves in front of their issues, hedgehog's dilemma and all that, she goes "fuck this, you need a hug, here it is". That after so much talk on how much the characters would be better if they just reached to each other and talked about their issue, to have a character who arrives and does just that, just because she doesn't like to see people suffering.
And it works: sure Asuka complains, but later she's seen playing her game with Mari glued to her without complaining, which implies that actually she does enjoy the physical contact.

The thing about characterizing her as "the fixer" (read: the problem solver) is that she's revealed to have also set Gendo and Yui up and is basically the architect (unwittingly) of the entire plot trajectory traced back to its dramatic beginning. So instead she's actually "the fixer" in the sense of the one who sets everything in motion, problems and solutions alike.

Axx°N N. wrote:The thing about characterizing her as "the fixer" (read: the problem solver) is that she's revealed to have also set Gendo and Yui up and is basically the architect (unwittingly) of the entire plot trajectory traced back to its dramatic beginning. So instead she's actually "the fixer" in the sense of the one who sets everything in motion, problems and solutions alike.

She's more of a "helper" rather than a fixer IMHO: sure she played wingwoman to Gendo and Yui, but there's no indication that she held their hand during all of their relationship, once the ship sailed they continued on their own.
Also, despite her efforts, she never managed to bring Asuka out of her self-loathing and disgust at her body, in the end it was Shinji who "fixed" her by reverting all the changes done to her body.

But she does have her hand in all the plot-pies indeed.

I skimmed through the discussion, so forgive me if my opinion isn't original, i still want to state it.

Considering Anno's famous views on otaku and the nature of the last movie, which in a way can be seen as Rei "touching grass" and "experiencing life even though it's short" and Shinji "growing up", then Mari, as an obvious reference to Anno's wife, but also an ideal otaku waifu is a complete anomaly. It's not surprising to me he struggled so much with the creative aspect of the Rebuilds, because it's highly contradictory no matter how you interpret it.

Dodging the popular confusion about Anno and Otakus, we can confidently say he at least believes many otakus practice excessive escapism. A lot of that escapism for otakus is finding in anime the "ideal waifu" and "ideal world that they care about and matter in", instead of learning to live in the real world where they have to deal with their flaws to find happiness. But Mari is the ideal waifu. She likes Shinji out of nowhere (down to landing with her privates on his face like in any romcom when they meet), is sexy and charmingly seductive while accepting him exactly the way he is, even as everyone else is ambivalent about him.
Most otaku, nay, most mentally sound men would immediately wife an ideal Mari, rather than having to deal with chronic depression(Rei), daddy issues(Misato) and BPD(Asuka), fetishes notwithstanding. (There would be another parallel to make here, about Anno and friends being otaku in the unprecedented anime boom of the early 1980s, having the unique opportunity to be otaku when that dream was at the tip of the wave of popularity, something that mirrors most otaku dreams before they spoil...)

I always took NGE for a great allegory for the brutal reality of the world of adults. The past is painful, the present is hard, the future is hopeless. Core 80s themes that were a bit anachronistic in '95. The people you meet are flawed and carry pain that you might never be able to solve or understand. And you can still find happiness in such a world. It's ambitious, yet honest and optimistic even as it's bleak, with the "this IS the best possible world for us flawed humans" message that Shinji choosing to go back in EoE conveys.

So why Mari? Mari is neurotypical. And convenient. And not as unrealistic as might seem. I had an ex kinda like Mari. A very easy relationship. Ultimately we got bored of each other. We were so comfortable together we didn't achieve much beside playing family and caring for each other, and we both thought we should go do something worthwhile in life. I suspect this is what Mari represents for Anno, his settling down, and it being "better than expected", beyond all the ideas he might have about it. His attempt to tell Otakus yet again that real women are actually not so bad and you ought to touch grass, settle and be happy.

In short? I still prefer Gunbuster to Evangelion. And there is no woman i seriously dated who hasn't ended up as a fan of Noriko. That's more interesting to me than Anno's tired hot takes, like discovering that Otaku want women to be dolls, perhaps ignoring that the average woman idolizes barbie dolls and dreams to live in a dollhouse...

I strongly disagree on the notion that Mari is meant to be an ideal blank slate waifu; if anything, I posit that say more about the priorities of the one making the analysis than the work itself; she has the same amount of character, runtime and arguably also character progression as the other three pilots that aren't Shinji, so the image of her as being hollow fanservicebait strikes me as both rather disingenuous and very lacking in observation/conflating continuities that should not be conflated.
NTE by its unconventional structure is told in an unconventional way, and if you don't come into it with the foreknowledge of NGE that is being played off of, the other characters exist in much of the same space

This would warrant a definition of what the ideal fantasy waifu is and I'd wager at the end of said discussion Rei would fit the definition more, especially in a Japanese context. Mari's open discussion of smells and breasts diverges from many norms, and I'd wager that describing her as neurotypical is willfully ignoring her polyglot book and language hobby and that her unsinkable optimism and enthusiasm isn't very normal, especially in the doom and gloom context. I'd wager that one could even say she's just as mentally unwell as everyone else, because the cheerfulness is in fact a little unhinged given the scenario and stakes.

I'm not sure I agree with the notion that she gets just as much development, though. Several characters are sidelined and forefronted depending on which movie we're talking about, but Mari was introduced in 2.0 and was more or less a supporting character, basically an ancillary character in 3.0, and then comes in out of nowhere to steal the show in Shin. We know the least about her origins or motives. I don't think it's fair to say because Mari doesn't have scenes where she's having an emotional breakdown means compared to everyone else she's undeveloped, but I certainly don't think enough time was spent establishing her relationship with others in a way that made her a coherent character. It's a shame that discussions seem to conflate her bright attitude with legitimate critique of her character writing. It's not surprising that her role as battle & emotional support without insight into her own perspective outside of just supporting other characters makes her seem more like a device than a person.

That's a fair counterpoint, from a character interaction perspective she does get a bit less than the other three; I was going more from the angle of her role in the world, which from the start has always had some rather sizeable implications in who she rolls with and what she has access to.

But yes, to a Japanese cultural norms, Rei 100% fits the bill of perfect blank slate waifu a lot more than Mari.

I was not a fan.

Her introduction ran against everything the original run had (compare that scene to the awkward "Shinji trips onto Rei's breasts cause anime" scene).

Then you add the escapist waifu angle (who in the world in the otaku circles wouldn't want an otaku husbando/waifu?) and her obnoxiousness and she represents the Rebuilds to a Tee.

Mari has great back and forth with Asuka. There's a history there after those 14 years and you can see it without needing an exposition dump. Asuka's comfortable around her, they support each other in combat with an impressive ease (compare their fighting scenes with how terrible the core three fought together in most scenes), Asuka tolerates Mari's Defcon Four annoyance levels, and so on.

Those two needed more airtime in the best case scenario, worst case scenario Shinji needed to not get the ideal waifu at the end.

Instead we got Anno's real world wife having to tell people "dude stop, I'm made uncomfortable by your comparing me to the ideal otaku waifu"; bet her and Anno had an interesting conversation for him having sent the EVA theorycrafters behind her.

AsukaisLiterallyMe wrote:Her introduction ran against everything the original run had (compare that scene to the awkward "Ayato trips onto Reika's breasts cause anime" scene).

Why would you compare them though? They are scenes with completely different purposes. Like the Rei scene is in Rebuild even. And NGE had its fair share of goofy fanservice too.

Then you add the escapist waifu angle

Women actually exist lol.
But I really don't think the last scene is about "Shinji ending up with the girl" or anything like that. It's about Anno/the audience (Shinji) leaving the franchise (the classic cast of characters leaving on the train) behind and going on with his/our lives, hopefully having learned something from the experience (Shinji literally entering the real world). The one to drag Shinji out is of course the newest pilot, the disruptor, Mari.
It's basically a bittersweet goodbye to the franchise.

Why would you compare them though? They are scenes with completely different purposes. Like the Reika scene is in Rebuild even. And NGE had its fair share of goofy fanservice too.

There is a clear difference in how the writing treated the characters in the two different projects.

Like yes, I get that NGE had its fair share of fanservice but that Mari scene is basically saying "remember all that decent, realistic writing from before? Too bad, here's some typical anime schlock."

I can't remember any fanservice in EoE. The one dodgy scene burned into my memory is Shinji sexually assaulting Asuka which has a point, not "lol I smashed you across the face with my tits as I parachuted down into your school's roof omg so kawaii eroiiiiiiiii" (yes it annoyed me).

The original run was written for adults, while the Rebuilds reek of YA silliness.

The short of it: the writing in the original run was coherent, interesting, realistic, and had a sense of humor every now and then without neutering its characters; the Rebuilds are incoherent, they're at best wish fulfillment.

Yes, I'm quite aware women exist; one gave birth to me.

What does that have to do with the fact that Mari is the escapist waifu in this scenario?

I don't see anything bittersweet about it. Characters died, Shinji pulled his Jesuschrist shounen nonsense, he saves what's left of the world, father of the god damn century gets his final goodbye with his dead wife, and hey ho cue the credits scene with an upbeat lovey dovey song.

Meanwhile in End of Evangelion we get a "shit's fucked, deal with it, that's life, make the best of it." ending.

Ps. Just realized S h i n j i is getting turned into Ayato.

Hah.

Test: Shinji.

Blockio wrote:I strongly disagree on the notion that Mari is meant to be an ideal blank slate waifu;

Everyone knows by now she was included by Tsurumaki and demanded by Anno to change the character dynamics and literally "kill Eva". She is a creative device, not even a plot device. Can't get any blanker of a slate than that. She's Poochie from that famous Simpsons episode.
From the interview he even states they tried to give her agency and a reveal to match Rei and Asuka, but none of it worked out. Ultimately they left her in exactly that blank slate state they introduced her in. I have no doubt there is deep, deep lore behind her after the dozens of revisions of her character. But practically? This is what we got.

Blockio wrote: the image of her as being hollow fanservicebait strikes me as both rather disingenuous and very lacking in observation

It's what a huge segment of the fanbase has observed. Dismissing that is more disingenuous.
The difference between "ideal" person and "realistic" person is elementary: human flaws. Mari's flaws in-universe are non-existant. As a meta-character the criticism of Mari is reduced to "she is too happy for the kind of situation she's in" and "she likes smells too much". (Nevermind that liking the smell of loved ones is a cultural element in asia and elsewhere.) Ergo her lack of flaws is the only criticism.
My take is that Mari ends up representing a healthy adult, capable of simply taking the situation they're given and doing their best with it. But it's such a superficial role her presence is entirely unnecessary. Chances are she'll be edited out eventually just like Jar-Jar was.

Blockio wrote: she has the same amount of character, runtime and arguably also character progression as the other three pilots that aren't Ayato

Easily demonstrated as false:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xlMUruLhB0

AsukaisLiterallyMe wrote: Mari has great back and forth with Asuka. There's a history there after those 14 years and you can see it without needing an exposition dump.

While very true, that's still dissonant in practice because while the writing tries to carry forward with them having "grown up", the decision to keep them looking the same is utterly against it, just so we can have "14yo" girls in skinsuits again. The whole idea of throwing Shinji into a world where everyone has grown up and left him behind has great merit to it. But, ironically, the show hasn't grown up at all. That's why Mari's role doesn't succeed. She's welcoming Shinji in the world of adults with no apparent flaws or development of hew own. Exactly like a waifu would. And it's the point i made originally. Has Shinji learned to accept flawed Rei or even more flawed Asuka, becoming the adult they needed him to be? No, he's noncommittally saved by Rei's replacement: yet another Yui.

The more these discussions narrow Shin into "they're young because they're stunted" or "the ending is the audience moving on from Eva" the more I feel it working less and less, at least as consensus read. Honestly I think Anno's intent was to be more fable-esque than that; the curse is a literalism, and a way to keep the core girls recognizable for merch, and the ending is Anno and the characters moving on. I really, really don't think there's high-falutin metatextual elements meant as instruction to the audience for either. And if there are, they're seriously clunky. Because like, what part of having a perfect youthful body is stunted in the way an otaku is stunted? Why not make her morbidly obese? Perfectly waifu-looking Asuka can sit in a corner and play a representation-of-gaming video game however many fictional hours the story insists, there's still a bit of a disconnect from reality in terms of cause and effect. Jokes aside, as for the supposedly metaphorical ending, if Mari is supposed to represent me walking away from Eva, it gets a whole lot wrong about my proclitivites and attitudes. And if she's supposed to represent some kind of ideal I should aspire to in walking away, it raises my hackles because I'm not an extroverted hetero. All these discussions pigeon-holing Shin as a Dr. Phil-tier pop-psych thesis on how one should live is ignoring that like, even if it is, it's extremely restrictive. It almost seems like these discussions are insisting to be mature is to be Mari, and moving on can only involve enjoying Thrice.

Also I can't believe there's still the insistence that the fanservice in Thrice is "the same as ever" when it's some of the most overt, egregious and needless I can think of across all anime. Yes, it's that bad.

While very true, that's still dissonant in practice because while the writing tries to carry forward with them having "grown up", the decision to keep them looking the same is utterly against it, just so we can have "14yo" girls in skinsuits again. The whole idea of throwing Ayato into a world where everyone has grown up and left him behind has great merit to it. But, ironically, the show hasn't grown up at all. That's why Mari's role doesn't succeed. She's welcoming Ayato in the world of adults with no apparent flaws or development of hew own. Exactly like a waifu would. And it's the point i made originally. Has Ayato learned to accept flawed Reika or even more flawed Asuka, becoming the adult they needed him to be? No, he's noncommittally saved by Reika's replacement: yet another Yui.

I am willing to overlook the whole "curse" thing because of course they would do that (they even did it to Misato, not a single aging line at all and she never once got in the EVA) to keep the waifu-ing going. I went along with it fine as Asuka definitely read like a more world weary character. And yes I'm clearly not the most objective person to talk about this (see username), but had they focused on how those surviving characters developed we would have gotten a more interesting film series.

But no, the Rebuilds focused more on the mumbo jumbo, macguffins, and wish fulfillment.

I do agree with your statement on Eva not growing up; if anything it regressed.

Also I can't believe there's still the insistence that the fanservice in Thrice is "the same as ever" when it's some of the most overt, egregious and needless I can think of across all anime. Yes, it's that bad.

There's something depressingly funny about how the scenes I can remember the most from the Rebuilds being all the bizarre low angle panty shots.

Maybe that's the theme Anno's going for: we're all degenerates and this is him portraying the fan gaze.

(I'm being facetious).

Astaroth wrote:It's what a huge segment of the fanbase has observed. Dismissing that is more disingenuous.

My guy. For a not unsubstantial amount of time in the early years of the English-speaking Eva discourse, a "huge segment of the fanbase has observed" that Yui has no active agency in the series. This is, of course, complete and utter bullshit and the majority of people know that nowadays; just because a lot of people think that something is the case does not mean that it actually is true; a distressingly large amount of people in the Eva discourse just lack basic media literacy (or indeed basic reading comprehension at times, given that I've encountered people whose hill to die on was things that the show spelled out to the viewer's face that it wasn't the case); all the arguments you make in that post spring off from this fundamental fallacy, a thousand ants can't be wrong and all that.
You overuse the phrase "everyone knows" as if it was actually accepted fact, and not just gross oversimplifications based on inflammatory postings that, if you actually made the effort to track down the original claim you would find have dubious to nonexisting sourcing, misrepresents information at best or is active, malicious misinformation at worst.
You act as if Anno and Tsurumaki are somehow antagonistic forces to each other, that Tsurumaki seeks to undermine Anno's vision - do you seriously belive that this is how writing a story works? That they don't talk to each other, or bounce ideas off of each other, where one incorporates concepts that the other thought of first? Anno has expressed a lot of similar views that what you're trying to nail Tsurumaki to a cross here for over the years in regards to how he feels about Eva. If you actually think that two people cannot collaborate on a story while working in the same direction instead of trying to undercut one another, all I can say is that for the sake of everyone involved, I hope that you never give creative input to anyone.

I can't and won't tell you that you have to like the decisions made, but the way you are presenting your subjective opinion as objective fact is a kind of behaviour that is strongly discouraged on here.

Like yes, I get that NGE had its fair share of fanservice but that Mari scene is basically saying "remember all that decent, realistic writing from before? Too bad, here's some typical anime schlock."

These are not 2 mutually exclusive things in the slightest. Eva's writing wasn't replaced with fanservice in the Rebuilds.

I can't remember any fanservice in EoE. The one dodgy scene burned into my memory is Ayato sexually assaulting Asuka which has a point, not "lol I smashed you across the face with my tits as I parachuted down into your school's roof omg so kawaii eroiiiiiiiii" (yes it annoyed me).

There are multiple shots during Instrumentality in EoE which one could easily deem as "unnecessary nudity". Overall, he Rebuilds are certainly worse in the fanservice department, but the original wasn't a saint in the slightest in this department either. I think that was the main takeaway.

I don't see anything bittersweet about it. Characters died, Ayato pulled his Jesuschrist shounen nonsense, he saves what's left of the world, father of the god damn century gets his final goodbye with his dead wife, and hey ho cue the credits scene with an upbeat lovey dovey song.

What? Shinji just used the wish granted to him by the Impact, just like in EoE. Lots of lovable characters die, which automatically makes it bittersweet, and depending on your exact interpretation, Shinji is forced to live the rest of his life in different world from everyone he loves, the ones that actually survived at least.

While very true, that's still dissonant in practice because while the writing tries to carry forward with them having "grown up", the decision to keep them looking the same is utterly against it, just so we can have "14yo" girls in skinsuits again. The whole idea of throwing Ayato into a world where everyone has grown up and left him behind has great merit to it. But, ironically, the show hasn't grown up at all.

While I don't believe the success of the portrayal of Asuka's and Mari's bond relies at all on whether these characters have actually matured or not during all these years, you summed up the point of the Curse of Eva pretty well here. It's not just keeping 14y/o characters in suggestive clothing after all, it's always been mainly so that their arrested mental development as a result of their trauma and behavior can be represented through arrested physical development as well. Also so that the characters affected by the Curse can be contrasted heavily with those who have legitimately matured during these 14 years, such as Toji, Kensuke, etc.

She's welcoming Ayato in the world of adults with no apparent flaws or development of hew own. Exactly like a waifu would. And it's the point i made originally. Has Ayato learned to accept flawed Reika or even more flawed Asuka, becoming the adult they needed him to be? No, he's noncommittally saved by Reika's replacement: yet another Yui.

Sure, at face value Mari does share some attributes like her lack of realistic human flaws with stereotypical waifus, but how did she "save" Shinji, exactly? Shinji develops with little to no help from her, and in the end Mari doesn't even need to physically help Shinji. He just joins him. Also, judging by Rei's and Asuka's character conclusions, I think it was pretty clear that Shinji learned to accept both of them. He showed genuine understanding towards both of them, gave Rei self - agency, etc.

The more these discussions narrow Shin into "they're young because they're stunted" or "the ending is the audience moving on from Eva" the more I feel it working less and less, at least as consensus read. Honestly I think Anno's intent was to be more fable-esque than that; the curse is a literalism, and a way to keep the core girls recognizable for merch, and the ending is Anno and the characters moving on.

I agree with this. I never shared the interpretation that "the ending is the audience moving on from Eva" also because of how superficially it restricts the main theme which in my opinion is more universally about growth, especially through getting over unhealthy habits like escapism.

I really, really don't think there's high-falutin metatextual elements meant as instruction to the audience for either. And if there are, they're seriously clunky. Because like, what part of having a perfect youthful body is stunted in the way an otaku is stunted? Why not make her morbidly obese? Jokes aside, as for the supposedly metaphorical ending, if Mari is supposed to represent me walking away from Eva, it gets a whole lot wrong about my proclitivites and attitudes. And if she's supposed to represent some kind of ideal I should aspire to in walking away, it raises my hackles because I'm not an extroverted hetero. All these discussions pigeon-holing Shin as a Dr. Phil-tier pop-psych thesis on how one should live is ignoring that like, even if it is, it's extremely restrictive. It almost seems like these discussions are insisting to be mature is to be Mari, and moving on can only involve enjoying Thrice.

On your first point, I would say the stunting comes from being completely different from your peers, and therefore feeling isolated as you are stuck in a state of stagnation while everyone else moves on to the next levels of their lives and everything great they also have to offer. Now, as for Mari, I don't think she's portrayed as a literal ideal at all. Rather, some of her defining, and obviously exaggerated traits, especially those that are not really expected from Eva characters traditionally, like her optimism, love for human connection, the way she handles pain and sorrow, are all attributes that can prove as positive and beneficial for people.

ChrisTamv wrote:On your first point, I would say the stunting comes from being completely different from your peers, and therefore feeling isolated as you are stuck in a state of stagnation while everyone else moves on to the next levels of their lives and everything great they also have to offer. Now, as for Mari, I don't think she's portrayed as a literal ideal at all. Rather, some of her defining, and obviously exaggerated traits, especially those that are not really expected from Eva characters traditionally, like her optimism, love for human connection, the way she handles pain and sorrow, are all attributes that can prove as positive and beneficial for people.

But that seems to be describing a different experience than those with the curse of Eva. Asuka and Mari aren't being held back, they're in pretty important combat roles. Maybe they're isolated, but they have each other, and who isn't isolated and held back from moving on aboard the Wunder? I tend to lump it in with the "Asuka is a clone too" aspect, where it doesn't really justify its difference from anything else. If the idea of being stunted at a young age were leaned into, however, it'd pretty much have to be mostly or entirely about that, but I guess at that point, like, why include an idea if you're not going to really explore it with any dedication?

As for Mari, I don't think any of her traits are bad (they're sort of self-evidently good), but the degree to which she's inexhaustible can only be described as ideal, and I dunno, I just think that presenting her as the escape route and contrasting her with Shinji is suggesting he, now, is also inexhaustible. And so many wrongs are being righted by these two that the narrative is more or less positioning them under a kind of "this is how to be" spotlight. And that that's where this all ends up gives it a sense of permanence, and it verges on communicating what is a pretty cliche and in my opinion misguided sentiment--"there is in fact a point we can reach where we're good forever," and I suppose that's the same unreality that's always attended happily ever afters. Showing people as happy only because they've hit on a completely one-note state of mind clashes with the fact that the mind is anything but.

These are not 2 mutually exclusive things in the slightest. Eva's writing wasn't replaced with fanservice in the Rebuilds.

You're right, it was replaced by incoherent mumbo jumbo and magical macguffins. And fanservice.

Point was EoE was written for adults, the Rebuilds feel more like the shounens the original run used to deconstruct; the type that would unironically feature "doho the waifu breast pressed my face, so silly".

What? Ayato just used the wish granted to him by the Impact, just like in EoE. Lots of lovable characters die, which automatically makes it bittersweet, and depending on your exact interpretation, Ayato is forced to live the rest of his life in different world from everyone he loves, the ones that actually survived at least.

It's not bittersweet. It's full on sweet. He's forced to live on a world where he got everything he possibly could have considering the situation. Again, he shounens the hell out of the ending.

Compare Thrice to EoE's ending and there's a stark difference (which I get is the point).

But in no way is Thrice bittersweet. It's wish fulfillment.

AsukaisLiterallyMe wrote:But in no way is Thrice bittersweet.

I'm speaking as someone who isn't a fan of the ending in any way whatsoever, but I'd say the textual evidence supports the idea that it's bittersweet. It's just that, as with a lot in NTE, the visual shorthand attempting to communicate this is really, really lacking. It's basically just the 2 seconds of "hmm" wistfulness after Shinji sees Rei & Kaworu and the train passes. It's like trying to square out all the narrative math using a mere eyebrow slant.

I'll agree to disagree on the bitter sweetness (or lack thereof) of Thrice.

I've experienced a lot of media from different mediums and for something to come off a bitter sweet it needs to actually work at it, not barely reference it.

Like there's an easily missed positive, anti-escapist, message in EoE's bleakness but it's actually there and solid enough for it to count.

Or maybe I'm just as disturbed as the character I named this account by.