Blockio wrote:In NTE, she kind of is, given that the boundary between Adam and Lilith is a lot less clearly defined there; in NGE, no. It would not make sense for her to fuse with Lilith as her place of origin if she actually came from Adam

Good point, thanks for clearing that up.
I guess she wasn't left out of the fruit of knowledge and just doesn't care who sees her naked. XD

Misato was pretty obviously being figurative when she referred to humanity as the 18th Angel. She was referring to the fact that humanity would be its own final enemy. You're right about the RCB being unreliable, though.

No, humanity is the 18th Angel. That is not being figurative

Angel wrote:nor is there any sign that Rei inherited any genetic material from Lilith.

Unless you count the multiple Rei-sized bodies growing out of Lilith. It's not explicitly stated that they're developing Rei clones, but it's certainly a sign that could lead one to speculate in that direction.

Blockio wrote:No, humanity is the 18th Angel. That is not being figurative

That contradicts... like... 90% of Evangelion's mythology.

Terrestrial life is descended from Lilith and ate the Fruit of Knowledge. Angels are descended from Adam and ate the Fruit of Life. Eva's mythology hinges on this setup. Interpreting Misato's words literally requires a bit of mental gymnastics and fine print redefining what an "angel" is.

I'm not saying you're wrong... but I would need to see the fine print to be convinced.

gelflinghand wrote:Unless you count the multiple Rei-sized bodies growing out of Lilith. It's not explicitly stated that they're developing Rei clones, but it's certainly a sign that could lead one to speculate in that direction.

They're humanoid legs. Humans are descended from Lilith. There's nothing here to suggest a connection to Rei.

Angel wrote:Terrestrial life is descended from Lilith and ate the Fruit of Knowledge. Angels are descended from Adam and ate the Fruit of Life. Eva's mythology hinges on this setup. Interpreting Misato's words literally requires a bit of mental gymnastics and fine print redefining what an "angel" is.

Not much gymnastics. Lilith and Adam are the same type of being, and Angels are their offspring. That humans originated from Lilith rather than evolving naturally is the key point here, not that humans are their own worst enemy.

They're humanoid legs. Humans are descended from Lilith. There's nothing here to suggest a connection to Rei.

Except we know there are multiple Reis produced somehow, and there are no other newly budded humans showing up, and no reason for them to stop only half-formed. It's not proof, but it is suggestive. Why show them if there's no connection?

To an extent I think it's the "Data problem" : Throughout Star Trek The Next Generation we're told Data is a robot with no emotions. It is a central plot point in many episodes, the emotion chip becomes a significant prop later on, it's constantly being said by other characters and it is a major throughline of his story as a character... But it's obviously not true from episode to episode, there's a least a dozen times where Data arguably catches feels ? Only to be rolled back to statu quo ante. And in a larger sense the show's writing ends up where Data lack of emotions is not that much of a hurdle, he had a copy/brother who was all emotions and he just need an additional chip, really.

I don't think Evangelion gets that extreme in hammering it (if only because it didn't last 7 seasons) & NGE is not stuck into having to obey statu quo as much as a purer episodic show has to, but it's not unreasonable that it's what people get broadly from the first impression even if from very early on she has some emotional responses prominently illustrated.

I'm not positive I quite agree it's the same issue in that Rei's progression as a character never gets undone (well, apart from Armisael that one time, but that's kind of a given, lol), but it does manifest in a way that is rather similar to a casual observer, which for better or worse do shape a large part of the discourse by sheer volume (this is not meant as any sort of "casuals ruining Eva, stop talking about it etc etc" gatekeeping so much as an observation on how if you aren't super invested in something, you're probably gonna miss a detail here or there), in that Rei's character moments throughout most of the show are sprinkled in between her more stoic, aloof self, so it's understandable how the impression forms.

There's also a degree of memetic degradation in play, characters get watered down to their bare essentials a lot outside of dedicated fanbases, and it tends to stick and bleed into other circles for the more silent, stoic types more so than the loud and angry ones (although given that we have more than a handful of threads to the tune of "Asuka is an annoying asshole", safe to say that even here, this phenomenon is by no means limited to Rei)

Yes it's more of a perception by audiences thing than a writing one, probably, though Rei being literally reset does happen.

There are three main reasons as to why this "Ayanami phenomenon" happens, in my opinion:

1 - The contrast between Ayanami and the rest of the cast (Asuka, in particular) can be jarring and give off this impression.
2 - Evangelion is a mainstream franchise and people are in contact with it all the time on the internet, even those who are not necessarily fans of it. Frankly, the good and old EVA "memes" do not portray any character correctly.
3 - Ayanami did inspire an entire subgenre of characters, some of those being actually "emotionless".

In any case, Ayanami is a character Anno himself admitted that he could have handled better. So the confusion do not surprise me that much.

I don't think it's an inaccurate way to describe Rei's character if you had to sum it up in one sentence. Just like saying Data is an incredibly life-like android but with no feelings. That's the setup.

That's reductive and maybe unfair to the character (Rei II already has Gendo glasses by the beginning) but that's pretty much her story : Designed as a tool and never being nurtured to be a person with her own agency.

Yeah. Rei is one of the best acted personalities in Japanese animation. And it goes without saying (those that have watched the show) that Eva has arguably the strongest dichotomy of 3 main protagonist. Rei contrasts with Asuka like Mai does Azula.

But Eva is unique when talking Japanese animation. The expression GREATER THAN THE SUM OF ITS PARTS somewhat applies to the show, because its music and framing only enhance Rei's aurora. However, those same aspects can be judged on their own, and objectively deserve lauding. That is to say, if you took The Renewal of Eva's color palette (not anything ADV; unlike most Western fans, I own the JR2 release, of this as well as other JR2 HD remasters, and there is no comparison between the two releases; lumping R1 Japanese animation with R2 is like lumping VCD with DVD, or MP3 with PCM respectively. but I digress), framing, music, fashion, Eva/Angel design, and applied them to another title, that show would be better enjoyed.

I am not positive I can quite agree to that one. NGE was massively influential and changed the landscape of not just its own genre, but anime at large for good reason; but it is not as fundamentally groundbreaking as it is often made out to be. I've spent frankly more time than I probably should watching mecha and mecha-adjacent shows from before and after Eva, and while it is still one of my indisputable favorites, nothing it does in its tropes or themes is unprecedented or even unusual; there's a lot of other shows that Eva is drawing from that dabbled in the same.
It's difficult to navigate this argument without either praising things that are untrue or sounding overly dismissive of NGE's impact, so take whatever I say here to be less drastic than it will inevitably sound.

Oh, it certainly isn't the first Mecha; Gundam, as I'm sure you know, predates Eva by 20 years. But within Japanese animation, the way it's presented is unmatched. The title episodes alone deserve lauding, and are seared into your brain like Asuka's EoE showdown, or THE splitting of the breasts. I.e. Love is Destructive, Both of You Dance, One More Final: I Need You... I mean, that last one- you could apply ANY of Eva's titles to non-Japanese media, and someone whose never watched animation could read that same title, and think they were being told a novel. There is nothing in Gundam that can hold a flame to the titles known as, Love is Destructive, and One More Final: I Need You, both of which read like poetry.

That's.... not really accurate, either.

To grab a few examples:
Through the Haze of Darkness
A Descent into the Maelstrom
Sorrow and Hatred
Fresh Blood swirls in the Light
Vanquished Life, Blooming Life
the Eternal Flame of the Shooting Stars

To name just a handful of the ones in Gundam that were definitively made before Eva, completely disregarding the dozens of other franchises that were also out there by that point. I'm with you that Eva has excellent presentation, but it's disingenuous to claim that there is nothing comparable.

I'm certainly (seems I like starting with that dosen't. But I do wholeheartedly mean so) not going to discount your examples, but I'd argue that (specifically referring to your examples) they read more like a Warhammer novel. Whereas One More Final: I Need You, feels more, for lack of a better word, eternal. In other words, one reads like fiction, while the other an expression, that can be appreciated outside the context of Eva long after we're gone.